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[Lotion Soronarr]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
See the rebellion, where mages everywhere are up in arms about abuses? It didn't do its job.

After how many thousands of years? Yeah, it did. 

With 17 separate Annulments performed before then? That's a separate mage rebellion roughly every 58 years for 1000 years. We don't know how each of them started, but when, somewhere, mages are being exterminated every half a century, it isn't really doing its job. Yeah, you could say that the majority is being protected, but does that really mean the minority deserves to be treated in such a dehumanizing way?

That's not a bad number actually.
Prison riots are far more common than that in our modern world.
And those anulments are singular. For one circle. They do not represent a collective uprising.
And annulment doesn't mean the Circele isn't doing it's job. Quite the contrary.

You somehow assume that no larger-scale demon possesion wouldn't occur if the system was different - that is can somehow be prevented completely.

If Connor had access to a trained mage as a tutor, this may not have happened.

Or as a result Connor might have been more powerful land a resulting abomintion might have been more so.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 12 juillet 2012 - 08:10 .

[Fallstar]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

a) you can take the sword away from the man
you can easily stop the man
c) the man with the sword  won't kill against his will. A mage can.
d) magic is far more than a "sword" or simple weapon. A mage is more like a man with a built-in bazooka and mind-control.


Tell you what - I'm going to visibly strap 10 kilos of C4 on me and walk on the streets.
Will you be confident and trusting of me? That I'll never snap? Never get drunk or drugged? Never falter in my moment of weakness (and ther will be plenty)?

Yes to a) and it depends on the man in . He could easily kill a dozen people or more before he was stopped. The mage can't kill against his will, he can have his will entirely removed from the equation by becoming an abomination. Which despite what a lot of people seem to think, doesn't just happen at random or for ****s and giggles. The mage has to invite the demon across the veil.

Mages who do turn into abominations understand the consequences of their actions.

All assuming they tunr of hteir own free will and not by force.
And all assuming they aren't tricked.

They can't be forced by the demon. Even Uldred needed the mages he turned to let the demon into them. And whilst the demon might trick the mage in some sort of deal to do things he wouldn't want to, I don't think there is any evidence of mages being tricked into becoming abominations. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 12 juillet 2012 - 10:08 .

[DreamerM]

DuskWarden wrote...
 Even Uldred needed the mages he turned to let the demon into them.

Well considering he got them to say the demonic "I do's" via. blood magic mind control, I don't think that really counts. Yes, the mage does have to agree...but the mage can be FORCED into Agreeing, which isn't really agreeing.

And let's not forget Conner, who barely even knew what demons even were when he made his desperate bid to save his father. His great crime was ignorance brought on by bad training combined with desperation.

Or the Templar's mage daughter who's name I'm forgetting, who was forced onto a slave ship and was just so goddamned SCARED she needed a way out, any kind of way out.

So yes, the mage does have to say yes and thus assume responsibility for their choices, but in practice it's not that simple.

Which is part of why I say both sides are wrong: restrict the mages too much and you get situations like Meredith's tower, where mages were so repressed that they got desperate, and when people are desperate, people resort to desperate measures. It was a negative feedback loop that ensured carnage eventually.

[Urzon]

DreamerM wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
 Even Uldred needed the mages he turned to let the demon into them.

Well considering he got them to say the demonic "I do's" via. blood magic mind control, I don't think that really counts. Yes, the mage does have to agree...but the mage can be FORCED into Agreeing, which isn't really agreeing.

And let's not forget Conner, who barely even knew what demons even were when he made his desperate bid to save his father. His great crime was ignorance brought on by bad training combined with desperation.

Or the Templar's mage daughter who's name I'm forgetting, who was forced onto a slave ship and was just so goddamned SCARED she needed a way out, any kind of way out.

So yes, the mage does have to say yes and thus assume responsibility for their choices, but in practice it's not that simple.

Which is part of why I say both sides are wrong: restrict the mages too much and you get situations like Meredith's tower, where mages were so repressed that they got desperate, and when people are desperate, people resort to desperate measures. It was a negative feedback loop that ensured carnage eventually.

Uldred didn't use mind control to turn the mages into abominations. He tortured them by using electricity/lightning magic. They kept saying no, so he kept shooting them with lightning until they finally gave in. So since he was a blood mage, and he most likely DID know the spells needed for mind control; i'm guessing he couldn't force mages into deals threw that method. That's why he turned to the torture method.

I agree on Conner's situations. He agreed to that deal on his own free will.

While the templar's daughter did enter into that deal with the demon freely, her becoming an abomination is against all the lore given on how they come to be. Unless the demon is sundered from the Fade (and stuck in the real world), the only time mages can contact demons is when they are asleep.

Demons can't whisper deals into mage's ears when they are awake. If a mage is in a bad situation, they just can't say, "Wow, this is looking bad. It's ABOMINATION TIME!!!!". Uldred was only able to do it, because he himself was an abomination, and having the demon inside him gave him a constant and open connection to the Fade.

[Fallstar]

DreamerM wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
 Even Uldred needed the mages he turned to let the demon into them.

Well considering he got them to say the demonic "I do's" via. blood magic mind control, I don't think that really counts. Yes, the mage does have to agree...but the mage can be FORCED into Agreeing, which isn't really agreeing.

And let's not forget Conner, who barely even knew what demons even were when he made his desperate bid to save his father. His great crime was ignorance brought on by bad training combined with desperation.

Or the Templar's mage daughter who's name I'm forgetting, who was forced onto a slave ship and was just so goddamned SCARED she needed a way out, any kind of way out.

So yes, the mage does have to say yes and thus assume responsibility for their choices, but in practice it's not that simple.

Which is part of why I say both sides are wrong: restrict the mages too much and you get situations like Meredith's tower, where mages were so repressed that they got desperate, and when people are desperate, people resort to desperate measures. It was a negative feedback loop that ensured carnage eventually.

As Urzon says, blood magic wasn't used, Uldred and the other abominations kept zapping the mages with shock spells. And the problem with most of these mages you highlight, Connor, the Templar's daughter is that they are scared. The Templar's daughter was forced to get away from Kirkwall. Why? Because she was petrified of the circle. Isolde resorted to hiring an apostate to train her son. Why? Because she was scared of what would happen to Connor at the circle. If the circles didn't inspire such dread in people, these cases could have easily been avoided. It's just another shortcoming of the circle solution.

[dragonflight288]

And let's not forget Conner, who barely even knew what demons even were when he made his desperate bid to save his father. His great crime was ignorance brought on by bad training combined with desperation.

I can't say if his training was bad (considering it's Jowan here, it probably was, but maybe it wasn't.) But Isolde was desperate for him to not go to the circle and only learn enough magic to hide his talent. Instead I'd say it was a result of desperation and next to no training at all.

[dragonflight288]

Connor becomes abomination AFTER reading a (i assume) demonology book he "steal" from Jowan, then make contract with desire demon. Connor not become abomination NATURALLY and UNPREDICTABLY as Templar supporter always propagate about.

Ummm...I don't know if you're being serious or sarcastic here. I'm currently replaying Origins and I'm at Redcliff right now in my gameplay. There's absolutely nothing in the game whatsoever that even suggests Jowan practiced demonology of any sort. It is theorized that Connor accidentally tore the veil and a desire demon made contact with him, playing on his desperation to help his father.

At the same time his mother was determined to keep his magic a secret because she was terrified of what him being a mage would mean for their family and for Connor (they lose their heir, they get humiliated with the shame of having a mage son, Connor goes to the Circle, separated from his family, never to be a part of them again.)

I'm quite serious. This is exactly where I'm at in the game. I just talked to Jowan and released him from his cell barely 40 minutes ago.

[LobselVith8]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Ummm...I don't know if you're being serious or sarcastic here.

It could simply be a mistake - everyone makes one now and then. There is no indication that Jowan practiced demonology - although Isolde blames Jowan initially (which might be why Nizaris1 might have thought it was Jowan's fault).

Connor didn't even know that the "bad lady" in his dreams was a demon - The Warden has to be the one to point this out to Connor if you speak with the boy outside his father's room.

[dragonflight288]

You never talk to Connor?

After he ran upstairs, talk to him, twice...ask him "how this happen to you?", he will told you he steal a book from Jowan...he said Jowan never allow him to read that book, but he steal it anyway. From that book he learn to made contract with demon to help his father.

Talk twice i mean by first talk to him, then back to player control, talk to him again...he will say that the scary lady come back...then you can say "Connor...do you hear me?"...when he say "yes i hear you", you can ask about what really happened to him

After that you can engage battle with him if you choose "this must end now", or doing the blood magic ritual, or going to the Circle by leaving him alone.

i don't think most people talk to him twice upstairs, if they do they will consider the blood magic ritual or killing Connor because of Connor said "Scary lady have come back...you must leave now..."

Hmm. Have to try that this run-through.

BUT, considering that the Circle of Magi has a side quest that allows you to summon Fade spirits (and one of them starts slaughtering indiscriminately on the roads so much that the Chantry places a bounty on the Chanter's Board for it) that aren't truly demons....who can say?

But if Jowan does indeed have a book that shows how to summon demons, then a lot of the arguments about how he learned blood magic will lose credibility.

[dragonflight288]

maybe he DIDN'T learn demonology, but INTEND to learn it...by the way Irving emptied the whole section of blood magic book case in the Circle, maybe Jowan manage to steal one of the book? Or Jowan get this book somewhere when he run away?

Uldred also learn demonology according to Nial...maybe he learn from Uldred or steal from him? maybe Uldred give him the book?

We will never know smilie

But for sure, Connor didn't become abomination naturally or unpredictably or accidentally, he learn to make contract with demon (in which he don't know it is a demon) from Jowan book he steal

It's true we'll never know. But I have long used Jowan not using demons to learn blood magic as an argument to support that demons aren't the only way to learn blood magic. I still stand by that, but the argument of using Jowan has suddenly lost most of its credibility. dang!<_<

[dragonflight288]

Conspiracy thinking say...maybe Uldred is Jowan master...and they have a plan to overthrow the Circle...then Jowan must escape the Circle to meet Loghain and poison Arl Eamon...but their plan messed up because of what happen in Mage Origin and what happen in Ostagar.

Nice to know you have a very creative mind. That's a good thing. But let me ask you this...

Do you think Jowan is malicious enough to do that?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Had a quick PM discussion with David.

According to him, templars do have rules and regulations and abuse of mages is NOT allowed.

"The Seekers provide oversight when the Templar hierarchy is insufficient. The Seekers are sort of the IA (Internal Affairs) of the Templars."

So the whole argument of "templars can do whatever they want and mages have no rights" is bollocks. Templars are no more free to abuse mages than police is to abuse suspects. Of couse, some will get away with it here and there (and in the case of templars, more often given the oversight limitations of the era)

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 juillet 2012 - 06:50 .

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Had a quick PM discussion with David.

According to him, templars do have rules and regulations and abuse of mages is NOT allowed.

"The Seekers provide oversight when the Templar hierarchy is insufficient. The Seekers are sort of the IA (Internal Affairs) of the Templars."

So the whole argument of "templars can do whatever they want and mages have no rights" is bollocks. Templars are no more free to abuse mages than police is to abuse suspects. Of couse, some will get away with it here and there (and in the case of templars, more often given the oversight limitations of the era)

It is not bollocks.  The difference is accountability.  If a cop in a western nation (esp the US or Canada) uses excessive force, that cop will be suspended without pay and hauled up before an IA board within days if not hours.  The hammer falls swiftly and unerringly and every officer knows it.

In the case of the Chantry, the Chantry has persistantly showed no real interest in holding the Templars accountable even for basic human rights of the circle mages, and show a persisent, "No news is good news attitude which allows the Templars to basically go unchecked."  All the so-called regulations in the world are no good if no one bothers to follow them and the Seekers are worthless.  Just look at Kirkwall as exhibit A of how completely worthless the Seekers are as a Templar IA.  Of course if you read the codex entry on Seekers, they were originaly (and in many cases still are) 'super inquisitors' that handle mage/magical problems that normal Templars can't...and if Lambert is any indication are even more anti-mage than most Templars (and that's saying a lot).

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Had a quick PM discussion with David.

According to him, templars do have rules and regulations and abuse of mages is NOT allowed.

"The Seekers provide oversight when the Templar hierarchy is insufficient. The Seekers are sort of the IA (Internal Affairs) of the Templars."

So the whole argument of "templars can do whatever they want and mages have no rights" is bollocks. Templars are no more free to abuse mages than police is to abuse suspects. Of couse, some will get away with it here and there (and in the case of templars, more often given the oversight limitations of the era)

It is not bollocks.  The difference is accountability.  If a cop in a western nation (esp the US or Canada) uses excessive force, that cop will be suspended without pay and hauled up before an IA board within days if not hours.  The hammer falls swiftly and unerringly and every officer knows it.

Only if:

- there is sufficient evidence
- the investigator is competent
- the friends of the perpetrators didn't close rank and keep quiet
etc, etc...


You have unrelistic expectations and standards given the setting and comepltely ignore everything that doesn't suit your worldview.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Had a quick PM discussion with David.

According to him, templars do have rules and regulations and abuse of mages is NOT allowed.

"The Seekers provide oversight when the Templar hierarchy is insufficient. The Seekers are sort of the IA (Internal Affairs) of the Templars."

So the whole argument of "templars can do whatever they want and mages have no rights" is bollocks. Templars are no more free to abuse mages than police is to abuse suspects. Of couse, some will get away with it here and there (and in the case of templars, more often given the oversight limitations of the era)

It is not bollocks.  The difference is accountability.  If a cop in a western nation (esp the US or Canada) uses excessive force, that cop will be suspended without pay and hauled up before an IA board within days if not hours.  The hammer falls swiftly and unerringly and every officer knows it.

Only if:

- there is sufficient evidence
- the investigator is competent
- the friends of the perpetrators didn't close rank and keep quiet
etc, etc...


You have unrelistic expectations and standards given the setting and comepltely ignore everything that doesn't suit your worldview.

If a modern cop or even a victorian "Bobby" killed a person in the line of duty, the overwhelming expectation is that the system will deal with the incident harshly.  The track record in Thedas for the Templars is just the opposite.  Templars can and do get away with murder on a regular basis and the Chantry (and Seekers) have a proven track record of ignoring it unless it is visibly rubbed in their faces (and will often ignore it even then....Grand Cleric Elthina anyone?)

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nope. There is no "proven track record" or anything except in your head.

Just because some people get away with crime doesn't mean there is no system to fight crime.
Plenty of people get away with crime in our modern FAR MORE EFFICNET systems.

You keep harping on several isolated incidents, assuming that they are common, organized, known and either properly invastigated but brushed off OR not investigated at all.

Just because you, as a player are told that X happened by mage Y, doesn't mean that it really happened, NOR does it mean there was any evidence for it or that even anyone higher up in the templar hierarchy knew about it.
Because I'm sure thers plenty of evidence avoilable...Like for example Aenerin, who was all alone wiht templars in a forest...OH WAIT!

It's you who go on assuming absolutely the worst, extrapoliating and overblowing thing..And and then attack the templars and chantry for "overblowing the mage danger" and any templar supporters for being blind.

Your expectations of what "should" happen are worthless. Utterly.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:29 .

[IanPolaris]

The entire game and Dragon Age series (not just games but books and other source material as well) tell us that the Templars operate with no effective oversight which means accountability is strictly determined by the whim of the local knight commander. It doesn't matter how many pretty rules exist if the Chantry isn't interested in making the Templars be accountable for them, and the entire franchise is rife with examples and an overall pattern that tells us they are not.

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

Actually, while modern police forces may be more acceptably off, a lot of modern prisons (especially in the US) are gruesomely corrupt. I've heard, although I don't quite know whether or not to believe this, that the rate for men being raped in the US is actually higher than the rate for women, because of all the prison rape and the fact that none of the guards give a crap. If you combine the general pattern of not giving a crap and the general corruption that ensues from giving one intimate power over the lives of others, with general standards of religious bigotry and the fact that the templars try to recruit amoral zealots, the picture emerging is not a pretty one.

[dragonflight288]

Umm Lotion, no one disputes the templars have rules. And they do take vows. This is established in Origins.

But the Seekers have effectively ignored enforcing those rules. Lambert spent most of his time trying to be a templar instead of investigating them. As he was the head of the Seekers, it's no wonder that Kirkwall wasn't investigated. The Chantry isn't holding its templars accountable.

I asked you three questions in another thread, and as they were never answered but the pages stacked up quickly, I'm guessing you didn't see them. So I'll just re-ask them now.

1. If a templar commits a crime, breaks his vows, or abuses his authority should that templar be punished?
2. If blood magic is accepted as using blood in a spell, a ritual, or even as a component in something else (the Grey Warde Joining, the Reaver ceremony, Finn's spell to find the lights of Arlathan) then do you consider the phylacteries or the litany of adralla to also be blood magic? And if not, why?
3. And finally, should the templars be held accountable for their own actions? And if so, who will enforce it?

I ask the third question because it's obvious the Seeker's are NOT enforcing it as they're trying to be templars under Lambert.

The demon in the fade in your Harrowing say..."The real danger of the Fade is preconception, careless trust, pride..."

He is actually talking about the whole thing happened in Mage Origin....Jowan USE YOU meaning LIE to you to escape the Circle, you don't know he is a blood mage. he don't care what happened to you if the plan failed or if someone investigate it and his escape lead to YOU...you help a blood mage run away...you still trapped in the Circle

In other way, Irving and Gregoir is right, Jowan is a blood mage...depends on your choice in the game, either help Jowan, or help Irving, who you want to trust? Your master or your friend? You are Irving apprentice...star student...

In short, i say, it is better to believe your master than your so called friend...your master here is the First Enchanter...imagine that

Jowan maybe not whole evil character, but he is not sincere with you, using you for his escape, not care what happen to you if he manage to escape...IF he manage to escape, he live happily with Lily...but you? Still stuck in the **** hole...or worse got tranquilized

Edit : Logically, do you think you can be safe with Jowan plan? The Circle is 24/7 guarded by Templar, and it is a magical place...they know what happen in the Circle...smilie it is like Dumbledor know everything going on with Harry Potter even not witness everything himself

Now back to our discussion.

I suppose we can look at how Jowan treats us in the Circle like that. But then we go to Redcliff. He is fully prepared to accept the consequences of his actions. He makes no excuses, he comes clean straight off the bat, wants to help, and doesn't resist being arrested, executed, or sent back to the Circle after the situation is resolved.

Taking that into account, my belief concerning Jowan is that he is a well-intentioned individual with a long track record of making poor choices and not thinking of the consequences. And things tend to blow up around him as a result of his poor choices.