272 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

The entire game and Dragon Age series (not just games but books and other source material as well) tell us that the Templars operate with no effective oversight which means accountability is strictly determined by the whim of the local knight commander. It doesn't matter how many pretty rules exist if the Chantry isn't interested in making the Templars be accountable for them, and the entire franchise is rife with examples and an overall pattern that tells us they are not.

The game tells me nothing of the sort, and DG tells me you are wrong.

And acountabiltiy is ALWAYS determined by the higher-ups. If the person in charge of police internal affairs is currupt, then the system won't work efficently. If the ruler in charge of the country is corrupt/doens't care, then the system won't work efficiently.
Likewise, if the hypotheticla leader of the hypothetical new mage circle is corrupt, the system won't work efficiently.

Go take a look at cases such as Guantanamo and tell me in the face that that doesn't happen. And if it happens here, today, then it's 100 times more likely to happen in TheDas. The problem is rooted not the in the templars or the Chantry, but in the basic human nature and limits of the age and society.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 juillet 2012 - 04:33 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Chantry/Templar says that mages are more easier to be evil because being tempted by demons, but corruption in Templar don't need any demon, they just corrupt.

It means it doesn't need a demon behind everything that is evil, anyone can do evil thing even without demon.

Like that Magistreate son case, Kelder, he said demon told him to do all what he did to elven children, it is just an excuse. He have a problem (mentally or not i don't know), even the Circle says there is no demon in him.

So, Kelder is NOT a mage but he is more dangerous than any mages.

The Magistrate do everything to cover up his son.

Not even close. Kelder is easily stopped.

[dragonflight288]

Not even close. Kelder is easily stopped.

Not legally.

[Xilizhra]

Go take a look at cases such as Guantanamo and tell me in the face that that doesn't happen. And if it happens here, today, then it's 100 times more likely to happen in TheDas. The problem is rooted not the in the templars or the Chantry, but in the basic human nature and limits of the age and society.

So you think it helps to have more rather than fewer such systems?

[Darth Death]

It's hard to feel sorry for mages, especially when forced in a corner, they turn to blood mage instead of remaining innocent within incarceration or dying with honor. Maybe mages can take lessons from gandhi who practiced "non-violent civil disobedience". With their posthumous injustice becoming severe, many non-mages will be force to take notice. Many then will question the humanity of Templar activities & the reasoning of the chantry.

[Zetheria Tabris]

I'm more anti-Chantry than anti-Templar, but I wholeheartedly support the mages. Honestly, anyone who is oppressed gets my sympathy and support.

That, however, doesn't mean that I think they should be free, of course not. But I don't think they should be locked in a tower simply because they were born with magic, something they can't control. So here's my suggestion, and I think it's the best solution.

The Chantry should stop promoting mage hate to the masses; that's the first step. People hear the word "mage" and they bring out their torches and pitchforks.

Make the Circle of Magi a place of solitude and helpful education, not a prison. Allow the mage's family to visit them or at least write letters. Teach them how to keep their magic in check, and then give them a Harrowing when they are ready for it. If they pass, allow them to leave the tower if they want to, or at least have housing on the Circle's property if you want to keep even more of an eye on them. Have templars come and check on them every other week or so. Allow them to have a family if that is their desire. Give them their rights as a person, basically. It's that simple. This way, templars get what they want - making sure mages are safe from others as well as themselves - and mages don't get as much freedom as a non-mage, but it's better than what's going on now.

DreamerM wrote...

....both sides can and will stomp all over the powerless.

I honestly think at this point, mages just want to stop being treated poorly. The glory days of the Imperium are long gone, and with the templars still over them (with my suggestion) it would be extremely difficult to start an uprising.

To Lotion Soronnar: Do you think my suggestion is a good balance for the mage/templar issue?

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Not even close. Kelder is easily stopped.

Not legally.

And girl with some knowledge of self-defense could beat the living snot out of that dweeb.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Go take a look at cases such as Guantanamo and tell me in the face that that doesn't happen. And if it happens here, today, then it's 100 times more likely to happen in TheDas. The problem is rooted not the in the templars or the Chantry, but in the basic human nature and limits of the age and society.

So you think it helps to have more rather than fewer such systems?

Did I say that? Nope.

I said there are no perfect systems and never will be. Especially in Thedas.
Replace templars with mage-version of templars under mage control AND S*** WILL STILL HAPPEN.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The entire game and Dragon Age series (not just games but books and other source material as well) tell us that the Templars operate with no effective oversight which means accountability is strictly determined by the whim of the local knight commander. It doesn't matter how many pretty rules exist if the Chantry isn't interested in making the Templars be accountable for them, and the entire franchise is rife with examples and an overall pattern that tells us they are not.

The game tells me nothing of the sort, and DG tells me you are wrong.

And acountabiltiy is ALWAYS determined by the higher-ups. If the person in charge of police internal affairs is currupt, then the system won't work efficently. If the ruler in charge of the country is corrupt/doens't care, then the system won't work efficiently.
Likewise, if the hypotheticla leader of the hypothetical new mage circle is corrupt, the system won't work efficiently.

Go take a look at cases such as Guantanamo and tell me in the face that that doesn't happen. And if it happens here, today, then it's 100 times more likely to happen in TheDas. The problem is rooted not the in the templars or the Chantry, but in the basic human nature and limits of the age and society.

DG and I don't like each other much.  That is no secret.  All that said, DG has said nothing of the sort.  DG has merely said that Seeker are supposed to hold Templars accountable to the Chantry rules.  The fact remains that they DO NOT.

If there is NO accountability (and there isn't effectively) and NO enforcement of the rules that exist (and that seems to be the case as well), then the Templars may as well not have any rules at all.

-Polaris 

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Go take a look at cases such as Guantanamo and tell me in the face that that doesn't happen. And if it happens here, today, then it's 100 times more likely to happen in TheDas. The problem is rooted not the in the templars or the Chantry, but in the basic human nature and limits of the age and society.

So you think it helps to have more rather than fewer such systems?

Did I say that? Nope.

I said there are no perfect systems and never will be. Especially in Thedas.
Replace templars with mage-version of templars under mage control AND S*** WILL STILL HAPPEN.

There is no system that's perfect, true.  However, in the case of the circle system you have the proverbial foxes running the henhouse.  Those that are supposed to watch the Templars and hold them accountable, show no inclination to do their jobs on an absolutely consistant basis.  This isn't a bad templar slipping through the cracks.  It's wholesale corruption so wide and deep that the entire Chantry up to Lambert and the Divine are implicated.  The chantry has shown no willingless to enforce the few laws protecting mages that it has, and the seekers have shown no desire to actually do it's job of holding Templars accountable when it comes to mages.  The Seekers under Lambert would rather just blame mages and call it a day.  The entire system is rotten from root to branch.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

Zetheria Tabris wrote...
The Chantry should stop promoting mage hate to the masses; that's the first step. People hear the word "mage" and they bring out their torches and pitchforks.

Peopel have a reason to fear mages. And fear breeds hate.
You seem ot think that the Cahtnry is responsible for the hate, but it's more probable hte hate is simply natural. After all, Chantry priests are taken from the populae, and if hte populace fears mages, some of that will remian with the priests.
Culture/society and religion exist in a complex relationship with one influencing the other.

And in large organizations like hte chantry you will have all kinds of priests. Evidence of this exists in the real world, with members of the same organization having different viewpoints on some matter and pushing their own views.

If they pass, allow them to leave the tower if they want to.

On short trips? Sure. Permanent? No.

Allow them to have a family if that is their desire.

Questionable. While understandable, there is great danger in that - for both the parents and the child. And everyone else.

[dragonflight288]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Not even close. Kelder is easily stopped.

Not legally.

And girl with some knowledge of self-defense could beat the living snot out of that dweeb.

Let me go to Dragon Age Origins. After Vaughn kidnaps the women from a wedding (including two brides) so he and his friends could have some fun with them, kills one of them, and rapes Shianni with every intention of raping the others, the City Elves have enough and send people in to rescue the girls. They are punished with a purge by Arl Howe. And then it is made a law that elves are no longer allowed to wield weapons.

This is Denerim.

Why shouldn't Kirkwall have similar problems? That girl's father (and that girl does eventually join the City guard under Aveline) says it right. No one cares about a few elves.

[IanPolaris]

Nizaris1 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Now back to our discussion.

I suppose we can look at how Jowan treats us in the Circle like that. But then we go to Redcliff. He is fully prepared to accept the consequences of his actions. He makes no excuses, he comes clean straight off the bat, wants to help, and doesn't resist being arrested, executed, or sent back to the Circle after the situation is resolved.

Taking that into account, my belief concerning Jowan is that he is a well-intentioned individual with a long track record of making poor choices and not thinking of the consequences. And things tend to blow up around him as a result of his poor choices.

maybe he don't resist being arrested just because he feel there is no hope anymore...and he have lost everything...his lover, his friend (you), his ambition if any...and he feel he have done trouble far more than he expected

There is probably a lot of truth in this statement.  We know that one reason Jowan turned to bloodmagic was because he was jealous of your (Mage Warden's) strong magical talent and how easy magic was to his friend.

he still don't admit he is the cause of what happen to Connor, he didn't tell you he do have a whatever book that can summon demon, yet he blame Connor for tearing apart the Veil...

Jowan has never summoned a demon.  You can learn bloodmagic without having contact with a demon.  I believe this was well established.  He DOES admit poisoning the Arl which started the situation.  You also don't need a book to contact a demon.  Any mage in the fade (dreaming) can contact a demon.

he don't say to you.."I have a book that teach how to summon and make contract with demon, maybe Connor read it...i lost the book..."

You don't need a book to tear the veil.  Conner will tell you that the "Scary Lady" came to him in his dreams and offered to save his father's life.  The scared and untrained Conner swallowed the bait...but it was Jowan that made him vulnerable to putting his father in such a circumstance and NOT helping Conner prepare himself to resist such offers.  It shows that Jowan is a terrible teacher, but I think we all knew that.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Let me go to Dragon Age Origins. After Vaughn kidnaps the women from a wedding (including two brides) so he and his friends could have some fun with them, kills one of them, and rapes Shianni with every intention of raping the others, the City Elves have enough and send people in to rescue the girls. They are punished with a purge by Arl Howe. And then it is made a law that elves are no longer allowed to wield weapons.

This is Denerim.

Why shouldn't Kirkwall have similar problems? That girl's father (and that girl does eventually join the City guard under Aveline) says it right. No one cares about a few elves.

That actually makes the point for me. If crap like that happens everywhere in TheDAs, then why should templars be held to a higher and unrealistic standard within the confines of the world?

And the point remains that that guy, for all family connections, is still a normal man and a single arrow will end his life easily. There are several kinds of power and mages have it in it's rawest form.

IanPolaris wrote...
DG and I don't like each other much.  That is no secret.  All that said, DG has said nothing of the sort.  DG has merely said that Seeker are supposed to hold Templars accountable to the Chantry rules.  The fact remains that they DO NOT.
 

DG didn't say that? Wait, where you privy to our conversation? No? Then don't talk smack..

You keep saying that there is no acountability and no enforcement like you have some hard proof.
News flash - you don't.
All you have is your assumptions.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 juillet 2012 - 08:37 .

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Peopel have a reason to fear mages. And fear breeds hate.
You seem ot think that the Cahtnry is responsible for the hate, but it's more probable hte hate is simply natural. After all, Chantry priests are taken from the populae, and if hte populace fears mages, some of that will remian with the priests.
Culture/society and religion exist in a complex relationship with one influencing the other.

If you play a human mage protagonist, the Revered Mother of Redcliff thanks you for your help and promises that she won't rally a mob against your magic.  It is an open admission that the Chantry DOES raise mobs against magic and they DO promote fear and hatred of magic.

With the sole exception of the very alien Qun, every culture that hasn't had the modern Andrastian religion has a far, far more positive outlook on mages.  Yes magic is to be respected but mages themselves are to be honored for their gifts.  Even the early Andrastian Cults including Andraste herself NEVER called for the isolation of mages from other people.

The chantry has had to twist her words like a pretzel to even begin to justify what happens in the circle.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
If you play a human mage protagonist, the Revered Mother of Redcliff thanks you for your help and promises that she won't rally a mob against your magic.  It is an open admission that the Chantry DOES raise mobs against magic and they DO promote fear and hatred of magic.

It's nothing of the sort.
At most it proves that the Reverend mother in question doesn't like apostates - and she has every reason not to.

With the sole exception of the very alien Qun, every culture that hasn't had the modern Andrastian religion has a far, far more positive outlook on mages.

And also a far bigger death toll and worse lives for everyone.
Whoopdy doo.


There was 0 need to twist anything. 100% pure atheists could easily come to the conclusion to lock the mgaes up as the best course of action.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 juillet 2012 - 08:41 .

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
DG and I don't like each other much.  That is no secret.  All that said, DG has said nothing of the sort.  DG has merely said that Seeker are supposed to hold Templars accountable to the Chantry rules.  The fact remains that they DO NOT.
 

DG didn't say that? Wait, where you privy to our conversation? No? Then don't talk smack..

You keep saying that there is no acountability and no enforcement like you have some hard proof.
News flash - you don't.
All you have is your assumptions.

Lotion, you are notorious for misrepresenting conversations and text to claim to support your positions when they usually don't.  I openly demand that you POST the entire conversation here.

Given what you HAVE said, and given what I know DG has said, the fact that seeker are supposed to provide oversight to the Templars does not mean that they actually do. Right now the game itself and the other stories in the same universe provide overwhelming evidence that the Seekers aren't interesting in holding Templars accountable at least when it comes to mages.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And girl with some knowledge of self-defense could beat the living snot out of that dweeb.

Kelder is a serial killer of elven children, under the protection of the Magistrate. Every time he is arrested, his father set him free.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
If you play a human mage protagonist, the Revered Mother of Redcliff thanks you for your help and promises that she won't rally a mob against your magic.  It is an open admission that the Chantry DOES raise mobs against magic and they DO promote fear and hatred of magic.

It's nothing of the sort.
At most it proves that the Reverend mother in question doesn't like apostates - and she has every reason not to.

It proves what I said it proves especially since WoG (yes DG) has confirmed that Grey Warden Mages are not apostates and are completely independant from the Chantry.

With the sole exception of the very alien Qun, every culture that hasn't had the modern Andrastian religion has a far, far more positive outlook on mages.

And also a far bigger death toll and worse lives for everyone.
Whoopdy doo.

Evidence for this might be nice.  We know from the Codex Entry: History of the Circle, that the circles were not established to keep anyone safe.  They were established to cement the Chantry's monopoly on magic and to break what was in effect a magical worker's strike.  Ambrosia II had to be talked OUT of declaring an exalted march on her own cathedral and killing all mages.  This shows how 'positively' mages are regarded by the Chantry.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 13 juillet 2012 - 08:44 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Lotion, you are notorious for misrepresenting conversations and text to claim to support your positions when they usually don't. 

HA! Look who's talking!
I still remeber the impressive lengths you went trough to twist the last thing DG said that didn't fit your worldview (life before Circles).

Given what you HAVE said, and given what I know DG has said, the fact that seeker are supposed to provide oversight to the Templars does not mean that they actually do. Right now the game itself and the other stories in the same universe provide overwhelming evidence that the Seekers aren't interesting in holding Templars accountable at least when it comes to mages.

There is no overwhelming evidence. I play the same game as you and I come to the complete opposite conclusion.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 juillet 2012 - 08:44 .

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Lotion, you are notorious for misrepresenting conversations and text to claim to support your positions when they usually don't. 

HA! Look who's talking!
I still remeber the impressive lengths you went trough to twist the last thing DG said that didn't fit your worldview (life before Circles).

Given what you HAVE said, and given what I know DG has said, the fact that seeker are supposed to provide oversight to the Templars does not mean that they actually do. Right now the game itself and the other stories in the same universe provide overwhelming evidence that the Seekers aren't interesting in holding Templars accountable at least when it comes to mages.

There is no overwhelming evidence. I play the same game as you and I come to the complete opposite conclusion.

You would always conclude that Templars are always right and the circle is the best thing since sliced bread no matter what evidence was presented to the contrary.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And girl with some knowledge of self-defense could beat the living snot out of that dweeb.

Kelder is a serial killer of elven children, under the protection of the Magistrate. Every time he is arrested, his father set him free.

Which in macrocosm is exactly the problem with the Templars.  The Chantry/Seekers (Magistrate)  that is supposed to be holding the Templars (Keldar) accoutable, is shielding him from the consequences of failing to follow their own rules.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

Modifié par IanPolaris, 13 juillet 2012 - 08:47 .