272 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That still doesn't mean nothing. A Grey Warden mage is not subject to the Circles. That is it.
Apostate is merely a title.. a name. Grey Warden or not, people don't have to like you.

You are wrong.  Under Chantry and Secular definitions in Thedas, "Apostate" has a very precise and very specific definition:  ILLEGAL mages.  In fact Alistair (who was a Templar-Initiate) says this specifically.

Grey Warden Mages are not illegal and therefor not apostates per WoG.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Actually you would. You want mages to roam free and Cahntry circles dissolved. That's exactly what mages want.

That is a strawman, and I think you know it.  I do think mages should ultimately live alongside everyone else as members of the community.  I specifically counseled against doing that immedately at least until the damage in perceptions of both sides could be cured.  Saying that mages should be registered, undergo mandatory education (at least enough to be safe to be around and control their talents), and have at least one specific order composed of both specially trained mundanes AND mages that did nothing but regulate and police magic (including handling of magical crime), and ALSO throwing the book at magical criminals is a far cry from letting "mages run free".

Again with the false dichotomy.  For a lot of Templar supporters, they seem to automatically reject any solution but the Chantry one, and we KNOW that solution doesn't work. [It's created a situation where most of Thedas is in turmoil right not...hardly a 'working' solution.]
 
-Polaris

[Lazy Jer]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Why these are allowed but they demonized Blood Magic?

Isn't these magic breaching "magic must serve men not rule over him"?

For the same reason the demonize demons.  Blood magic is learned chiefly from demons.

[dragonflight288]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

Why these are allowed but they demonized Blood Magic?

Isn't these magic breaching "magic must serve men not rule over him"?

For the same reason the demonize demons.  Blood magic is learned chiefly from demons.

But demons are not the only source. The way I see it, blood magic is demonized not so much for its destructive power like boiling your blood from the inside (a well placed fireball can scorch your skin off and boil your skin from the outside) but rather the more insidious abilities blood magic grant like mind control or the ability to nudge a person's thought-processes to be more open to other suggestions.

Add in that the Chantry seems to have denial issues about some of its practices. And I'm not talking about enforcing its own laws when dealing with corrupt templars either.

Take the phylactery. Phylacteries are a form of blood magic. It uses the mages blood as a component to track someone down. Gaider even said it's blood magic.

Templar powers can very easily be considered magic. They are practically weaker versions of the same spells with different names in the schoolf spirit. They say it isn't because their powers only work against mages. Some templars even say they are blessed by the Maker to battle unholy magics (Ser Bryant in Lothering.)

But a vast majority of the school of spirit spells also only work against mages. A mage who practices the school of spirit technically has all the powers of a templar. And if that same mage is an arcane warrior, that mage may as well be an overpowered templar.

[dragonflight288]

The Templars are confused themselves about unholy and holy...what is holy magic anyway?

I would guess the school of creation. And even if you are a spirit healer, the templar's would be doubly cautious of you.

As evidence of that, I present the Spirit Healer specialization description.

Spirit Healers focus on restoration, not destruction. They know that the best way to win a battle is to keep themselves and their allies in the fight as long as possible. They are the mages most likely to be accepted—or at least tolerated—by common people, and yet templars fear them as much or more than the damage-focused specializations. No other mages so directly draw their power from the beneficial spirits of the Fade. It's a risk, but the rewards are undeniable. Removing injuries, granting resilience to wounds, even rescuing comrades from the brink of death—these are not support abilities, they are the core of any effective party. Any fool can cause harm, but no amount of muscle can make a weapon heal.

[DKJaigen]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

Why these are allowed but they demonized Blood Magic?

Isn't these magic breaching "magic must serve men not rule over him"?

For the same reason the demonize demons.  Blood magic is learned chiefly from demons.

Demons is just a name. What are they really?

Modifié par DKJaigen, 15 juillet 2012 - 09:21 .

[LobselVith8]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Abomination is not a problem at all, not a threat, my Templar Mage can handle them all with one Mana Clash. I doubt any Templar can do the same.

It is all just Chantry propaganda about the danger of abomination. If mages can trained like my Templar Mage, there is no problem at all.

I wonder why abominations are so feared?
It is all just exaggerations from the Chantry. see below, i kill them like smashing bugs.

Abominations are dangerous, but the game fails to address this properly. It's an issue of game mechanics not matching the story. However, the Chantry vilifying mages doesn't help matters.

Despite the dangers presented by abominations, I don't see the Chantry controlled Circles as the solution. Dehumanizing mages isn't going to prevent abominations, and the Chantry controlled Circles seem to responsible for many of the abominations we encounter. Mages should be part of the solution, not imprisoned and stripped if their basic rights. The downtrodden will always strive to be free from oppression.

[Fallstar]

LobselVith8 wrote...
and the Chantry controlled Circles seem to responsible for many of the abominations we encounter.

I am unable to think of an abomination which we see in game, or read about in a codex entry, where said abomination is not the direct result of Templar aggression, the Circle system or fear of the circle. If there are examples, I would appreciate anyone informing me of them. Either way, the vast majority of abominations we see and hear about are the result of those three causes.

How is the removal of all of those 3 causes of abominations, then not the obvious thing to do to remove the reasons why the vast majority (if not all) abominations happen, which is surely a good thing to happen.

[Lazy Jer]

DKJaigen wrote...

Demons is just a name. What are they really?

Malevolent beings from beyond the veil with a distain for mortal life.

[dragonflight288]

DuskWarden wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
and the Chantry controlled Circles seem to responsible for many of the abominations we encounter.

I am unable to think of an abomination which we see in game, or read about in a codex entry, where said abomination is not the direct result of Templar aggression, the Circle system or fear of the circle. If there are examples, I would appreciate anyone informing me of them. Either way, the vast majority of abominations we see and hear about are the result of those three causes.

How is the removal of all of those 3 causes of abominations, then not the obvious thing to do to remove the reasons why the vast majority (if not all) abominations happen, which is surely a good thing to happen.

Because it would mean that the person who supports the Chantry or the Chantry controlled Circles would have to admit they're wrong. How many people like admitting they're wrong? Add in the Chantry having these beliefs practically from its inception, same as the templars, and they're going to have to admit that everything they have taught or believed for 1000 years was wrong.

They're not going to do it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That still doesn't mean nothing. A Grey Warden mage is not subject to the Circles. That is it.
Apostate is merely a title.. a name. Grey Warden or not, people don't have to like you.

You are wrong.  Under Chantry and Secular definitions in Thedas, "Apostate" has a very precise and very specific definition:  ILLEGAL mages.  In fact Alistair (who was a Templar-Initiate) says this specifically.

Grey Warden Mages are not illegal and therefor not apostates per WoG.

1) just because it's WoG doesn't make it so. Hey, if you can ignore it when I do it, I'll do the same.
2) Still doesn't matter. Legal or illegal - the people or the reverend motehr don't have to like you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

That is a strawman, and I think you know it.  I do think mages should ultimately live alongside everyone else as members of the community.  I specifically counseled against doing that immedately at least until the damage in perceptions of both sides could be cured.  Saying that mages should be registered, undergo mandatory education (at least enough to be safe to be around and control their talents), and have at least one specific order composed of both specially trained mundanes AND mages that did nothing but regulate and police magic (including handling of magical crime), and ALSO throwing the book at magical criminals is a far cry from letting "mages run free".

Again with the false dichotomy.  For a lot of Templar supporters, they seem to automatically reject any solution but the Chantry one, and we KNOW that solution doesn't work. [It's created a situation where most of Thedas is in turmoil right not...hardly a 'working' solution.]
 

No strawmen. you want them among normal pupulace. That IS mages runing around free.
Regestering? Education? That will do jack s*** and already exist in the Circle anyway.

And we KNOW the solution does work.
The current turmoil doesn't prove it doesn't work any more than the financial crysis proves the capitalism doesn't work, or a prison riots proves prison systems don't work.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nizaris1 wrote...
Templar should be disbanded, and mages can check on mages themselves. There is only need discipline, an order from mages themselves to check and balance the mages.

So it's perfectly OK for mages to police themselves, but it's NOT ok for templars to police themselves?

What hypocrisy from mage-supporters.
I guess you don't belive the internal police, since they are technicly still police; so police shouldn't be policing the police?

[Lotion Soronarr]

DuskWarden wrote...

I am unable to think of an abomination which we see in game, or read about in a codex entry, where said abomination is not the direct result of Templar aggression, the Circle system or fear of the circle. If there are examples, I would appreciate anyone informing me of them. Either way, the vast majority of abominations we see and hear about are the result of those three causes.

How is the removal of all of those 3 causes of abominations, then not the obvious thing to do to remove the reasons why the vast majority (if not all) abominations happen, which is surely a good thing to happen.

That's because directly or indirectly, you WILL blame the Chantry/Templars for everything.
Like Redcliffe.

See, I'm able to think of plenty, of course, you will not agree with me and will shift blame away.



@dragonflight288
Ye Olde Expression - pot calling the kettle black.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:15 .

[dragonflight288]

So it's perfectly OK for mages to police themselves, but it's NOT ok for templars to police themselves?

What hypocrisy from mage-supporters.
I guess you don't belive the internal police, since they are technicly still police; so police shouldn't be policing the police?

There is already a history there. The Seekers. Meredith. They have proven themselves completely incompetent. They don't look past their biases when it comes to templar corruption, so they cannot be trusted to police themselves, as they are now.

If they changed their entire recruitment methods and their entire leadership, then maybe. But as it stands, they recruit people mostly for religious zeal and less for any moral integrity. They have historically proven that they don't investigate themselves, and the system allows them to abuse their power without consequences.

The Mages Collective in Ferelden, on the other hand, has proven it can get things done. They police themselves, they take care of problems before the Chantry gets involved, and they're improving mundane views and relations on magic.

Historically....it's the templars as a group who are less trustworthy in following their own laws and abusing their power.

EDIT: It's like Wynne saying that the Tevinter Imperium's Chantry banned blood magic, but no one believed them because of the long history there. If the templars can police themselves, they have proven through their own history that they won't. It's less about the mages and the templars and more about the historical nature of those issues brought up within those groups.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 16 juillet 2012 - 01:56 .

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That still doesn't mean nothing. A Grey Warden mage is not subject to the Circles. That is it.
Apostate is merely a title.. a name. Grey Warden or not, people don't have to like you.

You are wrong.  Under Chantry and Secular definitions in Thedas, "Apostate" has a very precise and very specific definition:  ILLEGAL mages.  In fact Alistair (who was a Templar-Initiate) says this specifically.

Grey Warden Mages are not illegal and therefor not apostates per WoG.

1) just because it's WoG doesn't make it so. Hey, if you can ignore it when I do it, I'll do the same.

Once again, I invite you to POST the entire PM you had with DG.  Until you do, it's not "WoG".  OTOH, I am merely repeating DG's public statements about Grey Warden mages, and that is WoG and thus canon.

2) Still doesn't matter. Legal or illegal - the people or the reverend motehr don't have to like you.

Which proves my point about the Chantry riling people up against mages as a normal mode of operations.  Thank you.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No strawmen. you want them among normal pupulace. That IS mages runing around free.
Regestering? Education? That will do jack s*** and already exist in the Circle anyway.

And we KNOW the solution does work.
The current turmoil doesn't prove it doesn't work any more than the financial crysis proves the capitalism doesn't work, or a prison riots proves prison systems don't work.

It is absolutely a straman.  The circles have existed for less than a thousand years and you have provided NO evidence that they have made the situation any better, and a metric ton of evidence has been presented that they've made the situation worse in any respect.  Even after Andraste for well more than a century, mages continued to live alongside mundanes as they always have until Divine Renata hated mages and a magical worker's strike so much she wanted to slaughter all mages and had to be talked out of it.....and it was due to a peaceful magical worker's strike.  The chantry didn't have any regard for anyone's safety then, nor does it now.  It's pap for the fools in the pews.  The Chantry merely wants to control all magic both physically (lyrium trade) and it's practitioners (mages in circles).

-Polaris

[GavrielKay]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And we KNOW the solution does work.
The current turmoil doesn't prove it doesn't work any more than the financial crysis proves the capitalism doesn't work, or a prison riots proves prison systems don't work.

No, we don't know it works.  Because we have no alternative game universe to compare mage related incidents under a different system.  There is no way to know that the circle system made anything at all better.

The current financial turmoil does prove that unregulated capitalism is bad idea.  Why do you keep trying to set up an all or nothing argument?  One can say the current system is badly flawed and needs changes without saying the entire idea is unworkable and there should be no system at all. 

Same with prison riots.  They definitely indicate a problem that needs to be fixed.  It means there is something so bad in the system that the prisoners will risk anything to bring it to light - OR - that the system is so lax that prisoners can gather and organize a riot just because.  Either way, you don't just say, "oh well, we'll just beat them down whenever they do it" and hope they stop.

Why are you so resistant to the idea that mages should be trained in a more open and accepting environment by people who aren't religious zealots given absolute authority over them?  Is it so hard to imagine that people who've been recruited for their zeal are more likely to abuse autority?  That people who feel they have divine dispensation to control mages might take it too far?

I haven't seen anyone suggest that mages should have no training, no regulation, no oversight period.  What most folks are saying is that the religious nutjobs shouldn't be the ones doing it.  And why not let mages earn their freedom?  Why not have a system where they can "pass" their training and leave the circles to have families?

To claim that it is necessary to deprive an entire class of people of their freedom puts a HUGE burden of proof on the side that wants to do so.  I have never felt they've proven that wholesale incarceration is necessary.  The system goes too far and creates desperate mages willing to do almost anything to get out.  That means it needs changes.