Lazy Jer wrote...
DKJaigen wrote...
Demons is just a name. What are they really?
Malevolent beings from beyond the veil with a distain for mortal life.
DKJaigen wrote...
Not really they are simply immortal with no concept of the fragility of a human live. still the knowledge they posses is not malevolent. Knowledge is never malevolent.
DuskWarden wrote...
A spirit of justice or mercy could be just as dangerous as a demon if one found its way into the mortal world. A spirit of justice could decide to start slaughtering templars....
DuskWarden wrote...
Demons are a subset of spirits. They are spirits, they just embody different features. A spirit of justice or mercy is just as single minded about what it embodies as a spirit of rage or pride. Those spirits which embody characteristics deemed negative are referred to as demons.
A spirit of justice or mercy could be just as dangerous as a demon if one found its way into the mortal world. A spirit of justice could decide to start slaughtering templars, and a spirit of mercy could decide it is more merciful to kill someone who is in pain and close to death, rather than let them die on their own terms. As Anders says, "Justice is cold. Justice is hard."
Spirits are entirely alien beings to humans, they cannot be described with words like 'malevolent' in my opinion. They simply are what they embody.
dragonflight288 wrote...
So it's perfectly OK for mages to police themselves, but it's NOT ok for templars to police themselves?
What hypocrisy from mage-supporters.
I guess you don't belive the internal police, since they are technicly still police; so police shouldn't be policing the police?
There is already a history there. The Seekers. Meredith. They have proven themselves completely incompetent. They don't look past their biases when it comes to templar corruption, so they cannot be trusted to police themselves, as they are now.
If they changed their entire recruitment methods and their entire leadership, then maybe. But as it stands, they recruit people mostly for religious zeal and less for any moral integrity. They have historically proven that they don't investigate themselves, and the system allows them to abuse their power without consequences.
The Mages Collective in Ferelden, on the other hand, has proven it can get things done. They police themselves, they take care of problems before the Chantry gets involved, and they're improving mundane views and relations on magic.
Historically....it's the templars as a group who are less trustworthy in following their own laws and abusing their power.
IanPolaris wrote...
OTOH, I am merely repeating DG's public statements about Grey Warden mages, and that is WoG and thus canon.
2) Still doesn't matter. Legal or illegal - the people or the reverend motehr don't have to like you.
Which proves my point about the Chantry riling people up against mages as a normal mode of operations. Thank you.
IanPolaris wrote...
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No strawmen. you want them among normal pupulace. That IS mages runing around free.
Regestering? Education? That will do jack s*** and already exist in the Circle anyway.
And we KNOW the solution does work.
The current turmoil doesn't prove it doesn't work any more than the financial crysis proves the capitalism doesn't work, or a prison riots proves prison systems don't work.
It is absolutely a straman. The circles have existed for less than a thousand years and you have provided NO evidence that they have made the situation any better, and a metric ton of evidence has been presented that they've made the situation worse in any respect. Even after Andraste for well more than a century, mages continued to live alongside mundanes as they always have until Divine Renata hated mages and a magical worker's strike so much she wanted to slaughter all mages and had to be talked out of it.....and it was due to a peaceful magical worker's strike. The chantry didn't have any regard for anyone's safety then, nor does it now. It's pap for the fools in the pews. The Chantry merely wants to control all magic both physically (lyrium trade) and it's practitioners (mages in circles).
-Polaris
GavrielKay wrote...
Same with prison riots. They definitely indicate a problem that needs to be fixed. It means there is something so bad in the system that the prisoners will risk anything to bring it to light - OR - that the system is so lax that prisoners can gather and organize a riot just because. Either way, you don't just say, "oh well, we'll just beat them down whenever they do it" and hope they stop.
I haven't seen anyone suggest that mages should have no training, no regulation, no oversight period. What most folks are saying is that the religious nutjobs shouldn't be the ones doing it. And why not let mages earn their freedom? Why not have a system where they can "pass" their training and leave the circles to have families?
To claim that it is necessary to deprive an entire class of people of their freedom puts a HUGE burden of proof on the side that wants to do so. I have never felt they've proven that wholesale incarceration is necessary. The system goes too far and creates desperate mages willing to do almost anything to get out. That means it needs changes.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Mages are extreemly dangerous. That's all the proof I need.
Irrelevant. The Chantry should never have anything to do with them.Mages are extreemly dangerous. That's all the proof I need.
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Modifié par Nizaris1, 17 juillet 2012 - 05:07 .
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
dragonflight288 wrote...
So it's perfectly OK for mages to police themselves, but it's NOT ok for templars to police themselves?
What hypocrisy from mage-supporters.
I guess you don't belive the internal police, since they are technicly still police; so police shouldn't be policing the police?
There is already a history there. The Seekers. Meredith. They have proven themselves completely incompetent. They don't look past their biases when it comes to templar corruption, so they cannot be trusted to police themselves, as they are now.
If they changed their entire recruitment methods and their entire leadership, then maybe. But as it stands, they recruit people mostly for religious zeal and less for any moral integrity. They have historically proven that they don't investigate themselves, and the system allows them to abuse their power without consequences.
The Mages Collective in Ferelden, on the other hand, has proven it can get things done. They police themselves, they take care of problems before the Chantry gets involved, and they're improving mundane views and relations on magic.
Historically....it's the templars as a group who are less trustworthy in following their own laws and abusing their power.
What are you talking about?
Nothing is proven. Especially not "historicly".
Guest_Nizaris1_*
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
IanPolaris wrote...
OTOH, I am merely repeating DG's public statements about Grey Warden mages, and that is WoG and thus canon.
Your interpretation of what the statement means and it's implications is not canon.
2) Still doesn't matter. Legal or illegal - the people or the reverend motehr don't have to like you.
Which proves my point about the Chantry riling people up against mages as a normal mode of operations. Thank you.
I doesn't prove anything.
A Reveerend Mother can act on it's own violition. It doens't priove that "the Chantry" does anything.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Lol.
What evidence? You have no evidence. You insist that things have gotten worse without any "before" to compare it agianst.
You see what you want to see.
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The point is that no matter how you change the prison system there will be riots. They might be sucesfull or not, but you'll NEVER get rid of them.
They are inherent to the system and no amount of changes can change that.
Leaving the Circle is not an option. Too dangerous.
Redcliffe x100.
Mages are extreemly dangerous. That's all the proof I need.
Xilizhra wrote...
Irrelevant. The Chantry should never have anything to do with them.Mages are extreemly dangerous. That's all the proof I need.
Nizaris1 wrote...
This is what happen to Connor, he become abomination not accidentally, not unpredictably, not just like that...it is because of he read Jowan's book (i assume demonology book) and make a contract with demon. It means mages are not dangerous. he only become abomination because of that, not just suddenly become abomination
IanPolaris wrote...
I am interpreting nothing. DG has publically and explicitly stated that Grey Warden mages are the only mages NOT legally under Chantry control, and thus can have children. That means your Grey Warden mage in Redcliff is NOT an apostate under Chantry law.
You are wrong. End of story.
I doesn't prove anything.
A Reveerend Mother can act on it's own violition. It doens't priove that "the Chantry" does anything.
It proves that the Chantry has a history and policy of inspiring/riling mobs against mages. In every scene, the revered mother apologizes in some way for the Chantry's past misdeeds as a way of thanking you for what you are doing. The only difference is what chantry misdeeds she is apologizing for depending on what sort of warden you are.
IanPolaris wrote...
I consider Codex entires and other game lore to be evidence which is vastly more evidence than you've ever bothered to cite. From this evidence I conclude that:
1. Thedas functioned fine without the circle for most of recorded history with mages living alongside non-mages.
2. The Circle was implemented by the Chantry to completely CONTROL magic (and break up a mages' strike) and protection of others was the least thing on the Chantry's mind when doing so.
-Polaris
Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Nizaris1 wrote...
This is what happen to Connor, he become abomination not accidentally, not unpredictably, not just like that...it is because of he read Jowan's book (i assume demonology book) and make a contract with demon. It means mages are not dangerous. he only become abomination because of that, not just suddenly become abomination
It had nothing to do with he book - it had to do with him begin a mage. Demons come to mages in their sleep.
And Conor had a strong desire - to hlp his beloved uncle. That's what attracted the Desire demon.
Don't you get it? - mages will never be rid of their desires.
Give them one thing, they'll desire another.
As long as they are mages, as long as they are human with human flaws and emotions - they wll be plauged by demons in their moments of weakness.
GavrielKay wrote...
Um, no. I know of several prison systems around the world (mostly in Scandinavia) where the system is actually quite good at keeping the prisoners in line while not having them be gang raped in the showers. It's when people give up and say it can't ever be any better that things get worse. Once you embrace the idea that there's no point in working toward "perfection," it's easy to just not bother working towards "pretty darned good" too.
And here we go again. There are many many free mages already in Thedas. Either by special Chantry dispensation, in hiding, with the Dalish etc etc etc ad infinitum. Your blanket statement is simply not borne out in the game world.
Mages are extreemly dangerous. That's all the proof I need.
Well, you'd better lock up Hawke and the Warden and a few thousand other folks too then. There's nothing special about dying by a mage's hand. Dead is dead. Danger is danger.
There are plenty of ways to die in a feudal society. Some of those ways can actually be mitigated by free mages - like disease and injury.
In any case, there is obviously no point in this argument. You don't even refute folks' points any more, you just keep saying the same things over and over, and now, so do the people trying to argue against you. I give up.
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