187 réponses à ce sujet

[JaimasOfRaxis]

At the risk of inviting an apocalyptic storm of idiocy, someone has to play Devil's Advocate and ask a simple question:

"What about the newcomers?"

There's a lot of them right now - people late to  the party, or people who hopped in after EC. The simple fact is that right now, ME3's multiplayer is a giant turn-off for pretty much any and all newcomers, because of the giant difficulty spikes that have occured through the patches. With Geth now infamously cheap and capable of causing complete party wipes on Bronze even on veteran players, and Reapers and Cerberus both having either recieved or getting buffs which, if history is any indication, will break them just as hard as the Geth are now, someone needs to stop and analyze - it is currently extremely hard for many players to get into ME3, as the current challenges provide an entry barrier that, for many, dissuades them from getting invested.

Allow me to elaborate.

Every now and then, I promote chars. Mostly to trim fat because I don't like having entire class-trees full of classes I'm not playing, and just as often so I have something to level up alongside my newcomer friends, but I digress. Fighting on Bronze, the problems we see on Gold with various factions - "magnet hands" Synckills, map problems (Condor, hang your head in shame), bugs, and the entire Geth faction in general - are just as prevalent and problematic. What makes these worse is that unlike seasoned veterans like me who have mostly-maxed-out manifests,  the newblets are not going to have the benefit of a Falcon X or Claymore X (for example) to pick up the slack and take some of the pressure off. This creates a self-sustaining problem for the playerbase - newcomers are left with a Bronze metagame infinitely more dangerous than that of the demo - one that is all-too-comfortable utterly curb-stomping them and leaving their twitching corpse on display for good measure. Drawing Geth as a matchup right now is a potential lesson in frustration,  since - not only will you be underpowered out the gate, but you'll be facing down an enemy notorious for stagger immunity, rapid-fire missile nonsense, and more.

When we all started, the game was genuinely easier and gentler to us - we could phase into the challenge gradually, and wipes on Bronze were relatively rare outside the Snowball Effect that usually occurs when a party member gets Synckilled. Now, it's far harder - and even buggier - and the days of relatively middling-difficulty Bronze are a thing of the past. It can be argued that these players could simply hook up with friends who are fully-leveled, but one must be fair - these are players infinitely more likely to wind up in PUGs. With that in mind, the current metagame seems angled against newcomers specifically!

This is problematic. The community needs its influx of newcomers. They're both a source of revenue and part of what fuels the online multiplayer. The way things are headed, it's only going to drive off the newcomers all the harder. We need to stop for a moment with the rampant charge towards nerfing players/buffing the enemies, and analyze the best ways to do it, because this game can ill-afford another Geth faction disaster.

[NinthGeorgesw]

I'm annoyed that instead of nerfing Geth, who are completely broken, they have chosen to buff Cerberus. It shows how little Bioware know about balance.

[GallowsPole]

NinthGeorgesw wrote...

I'm annoyed that instead of nerfing Geth, who are completely broken, they have chosen to buff Cerberus. It shows how little Bioware know about balance.

Geth need to be fixed, not nerfed. If anything, they are even easier than Cerberus. The Hunter is really their only deadly unit and a lot of that is because they cheat like hell.

[DarkerCompanion]

The factions have had only moderate Bronze buffs.

Furthermore, almost all classes have become significantly stronger since release. Similarly, almost all guns except Blue/Common card guns have become stronger as well.

I don't see this being an issue for newcomers, as long as they ease into the higher difficulties.

EDIT: This is a list of buffed and nerfed classes since the release of said classes.


Buffed:
Human Sentinel
Krogan Sentinel
Turian Sentinel
Drell Vanguard
Drell Adept
Turian Soldier
Salarian Engineer
Human Engineer
Quarian Female Engineer
Krogan Soldier
Human Soldier
Human Soldier (Battlefield)
Batarian Sentinel
Human Adept
Batarian Soldier
Human Vanguard
Salarian Engineer
Phoenix Vanguard
Phoenix Adept
 
Mixed:
Salarian Infiltrator (2 buffs, 1 nerf)
Geth Infiltrator (1 buff, 2 nerfs)
Asari Vanguard (1 buff, 1 nerf)
 
Nerfed:
Asari Adept
Quarian Female Infiltrator
Geth Engineer
Human Infiltrator
Quarian Male Infiltrator

Modifié par DarkerCompanion, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:21 .

[known_hero]

I strongly dislike(don't want to say hate) "newcomers". They ruin games because developers cater to them by watering stuff down.

My advice: catch up or trade in your game. If bronze is too hard, keep practicing. Don't expect developers to baby you.

Don't mean to be rude but I STRONGLY DISLIKE this "make the game more approachable for newcomers" argument.

[Barefoot X]

As my gramps always said. "The many pays for the action of the few. So just roll with the punches." 

[Dokteur Kill]

DarkerCompanion wrote...

Similarly, almost all guns except Blue/Common card guns have become stronger as well.

So, everything except the guns available to newcomers? :innocent:

[DarkerCompanion]

Dokteur Kill wrote...

DarkerCompanion wrote...

Similarly, almost all guns except Blue/Common card guns have become stronger as well.

So, everything except the guns available to newcomers? :innocent:

Shuriken got better. But odds are, within a single pack, a character will have a new gun or class. So . . .

[NinthGeorgesw]

GallowsPole wrote...

NinthGeorgesw wrote...

I'm annoyed that instead of nerfing Geth, who are completely broken, they have chosen to buff Cerberus. It shows how little Bioware know about balance.

Geth need to be fixed, not nerfed. If anything, they are even easier than Cerberus. The Hunter is really their only deadly unit and a lot of that is because they cheat like hell.

You know what Bioware are like with patching an issue. In six months time they'll bring out a patch "fixing" Geth that will remove headshot damage to all of them, make Rocket Troopers fire a never-ending stream of rockets, and make Hunters keep shooting even after you kill them.

[JaimasOfRaxis]

Don't mean to be rude but I STRONGLY DISLIKE this "make the game more approachable for newcomers" argument.

That's great, really, but you're missing the point.

Every time the enemies get buffed, the non-A-list chars and weapons get further left behind. This has led to a nigh-continuous power creep that - frankly - isn't a problem for veteran players, but it will drive off otherwise-interested and competent players, which are, unfortunately, essential to a title like this. The cheese of the Geth is not reduced by fighting them on Bronze, and the bugs and balance issues inherent in that faction are prevalent. We get another faction like that, this game is likely to nosedive.

ME3 is specifically drawing parallels between itself and Pinnacle Station for this exact reason.

Modifié par JaimasOfRaxis, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:31 .

[DarkerCompanion]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

ME3 is specifically drawing parallels between itself and Pinnacle Station for this exact reason.

What parallels? I've never seen a one.

[KibblesBits]

I guess my only real response to this is that I only started a week or so before the EC and I've loved every minute of this game. Sure, it has bugs, and sure, I spent a lot of time getting stomped on. But I just learned to play like others do. Newcomers aren't going to be put off unless they come in expecting to be spoonfed victory and credits.

[1337haxwtg]

I think a huge turnoff for newbies might be getting thrown into gold (in progress) when they search for bronze. If they don't notice the screwup, they might never try it again.

[Adhok42]

known_hero wrote...

I strongly dislike(don't want to say hate) "newcomers". They ruin games because developers cater to them by watering stuff down.

My advice: catch up or trade in your game. If bronze is too hard, keep practicing. Don't expect developers to baby you.

Don't mean to be rude but I STRONGLY DISLIKE this "make the game more approachable for newcomers" argument.

I call 'em rookies. Rooks for short.

I'm going to have to be your polar opposite here and say the OP is right.

I lucked out and managed to snag an entire group of Rooks who were all only double digits last night They were doing farily well and had a nice varaity of weapons to choose from but guess who kept getting top score with 75+ kills? Hell I'd been rusting for two weeks because my Xbox was in the shop! They should have been outscorring me! No way I should have been killing that many enemies after a two week break.

During the entire match one of the Rooks got a mic and started chatting me up about what was and wasn't acceptable to play in the game. Apparantly BSN's requirements have been adding to the difficulty. Remember, WE really call the shots on what is/isn't meant to be played. The Devs want us to play all the things! Because of the requirements we've been forcing onto the game in order to play because we don't want to "Carry the Stupid Rooks" its making it harder FOR them to "keep practicing".

There were some games like EVE when it first came out I didn't like because there was nothing there to help me get started. I litteraly had to stumble about on my own or ask a veteran for a guide that wasn't there to begin with. When they added a way to ease players into the game I found it much more enjoyable because at least I had a foundation to build on. Same way here. I've been a day one player. I'm returning the favor those here who managed to get ahead of me gave me by teaching me some of the nuicences as well as passing on what I learned to help ease their way into the game.

By making the enemies harder (or cheaper), it's harder for newcomers to ease into the game without a veteran to show them how to properly counter their attacks. Yes it's carrying in a sense but they won't learn as well as if they don't get a few victories under their belt and may become dishearted when they keep getting slaughtered.

[InTheZone]

known_hero wrote...

I strongly dislike(don't want to say hate) "newcomers". They ruin games because developers cater to them by watering stuff down.

My advice: catch up or trade in your game. If bronze is too hard, keep practicing. Don't expect developers to baby you.

Don't mean to be rude but I STRONGLY DISLIKE this "make the game more approachable for newcomers" argument.

It's a ****ing game bro, deal with it. Christ, some people are just overzealous jerks.

[scampermax]

known_hero wrote...

I strongly dislike(don't want to say hate) "newcomers". They ruin games because developers cater to them by watering stuff down.

My advice: catch up or trade in your game. If bronze is too hard, keep practicing. Don't expect developers to baby you.

Don't mean to be rude but I STRONGLY DISLIKE this "make the game more approachable for newcomers" argument.

Bronze should be an approachable entry point for newcomers and a place where less skilled players can still have fun. Silver and Gold exist for those who have improved and/or have better skills. Asking that bronze be kept as an entry level isn't the same as asking to be babied or have victory handed to you.

[InTheZone]

Adhok42 wrote...

known_hero wrote...

I strongly dislike(don't want to say hate) "newcomers". They ruin games because developers cater to them by watering stuff down.

My advice: catch up or trade in your game. If bronze is too hard, keep practicing. Don't expect developers to baby you.

Don't mean to be rude but I STRONGLY DISLIKE this "make the game more approachable for newcomers" argument.

I call 'em rookies. Rooks for short.

I'm going to have to be your polar opposite here and say the OP is right.

I lucked out and managed to snag an entire group of Rooks who were all only double digits last night They were doing farily well and had a nice varaity of weapons to choose from but guess who kept getting top score with 75+ kills? Hell I'd been rusting for two weeks because my Xbox was in the shop! They should have been outscorring me! No way I should have been killing that many enemies after a two week break.

During the entire match one of the Rooks got a mic and started chatting me up about what was and wasn't acceptable to play in the game. Apparantly BSN's requirements have been adding to the difficulty. Remember, WE really call the shots on what is/isn't meant to be played. The Devs want us to play all the things! Because of the requirements we've been forcing onto the game in order to play because we don't want to "Carry the Stupid Rooks" its making it harder FOR them to "keep practicing".

There were some games like EVE when it first came out I didn't like because there was nothing there to help me get started. I litteraly had to stumble about on my own or ask a veteran for a guide that wasn't there to begin with. When they added a way to ease players into the game I found it much more enjoyable because at least I had a foundation to build on. Same way here. I've been a day one player. I'm returning the favor those here who managed to get ahead of me gave me by teaching me some of the nuicences as well as passing on what I learned to help ease their way into the game.

By making the enemies harder (or cheaper), it's harder for newcomers to ease into the game without a veteran to show them how to properly counter their attacks. Yes it's carrying in a sense but they won't learn as well as if they don't get a few victories under their belt and may become dishearted when they keep getting slaughtered.

You make it sound like a big deal you were outscoring people. I didn't play MP for a month since I got Dragon Age: Ultimate Edition - I came back to MP and it was just the same as before. Things are easy enough in this game that new players can pick up.

[Adhok42]

InTheZone wrote...
You make it sound like a big deal you were outscoring people. I didn't play MP for a month since I got Dragon Age: Ultimate Edition - I came back to MP and it was just the same as before. Things are easy enough in this game that new players can pick up.

It was a big deal. You stopped playing for another game. I was forced to stop gaming cold turkey. Couldn't play a damn thing. Nothing. Nada. I fully expected to suck harder then they did until I could warm up and get back in the zone. Imagine my surrprise when the opposite happened. Of course by the time I stopped playing I was back up to normal levels. I didn't expect to be at my normal level first game in.

[neteng101]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

At the risk of inviting an apocalyptic storm of idiocy, someone has to play Devil's Advocate and ask a simple question:

"What about the newcomers?"

Most people here don't care, and some even like it this way ie. let's keep everyone else behind us mentality.  People have unlocked weapons and classes, learned how to play the game, and showing an elitist mentality towards newcomers, or even relatively new players.

The game has hit a phase now where there's quite a few that have everything up to Rares fully unlocked (except the new gear) so of course its gotten easier as the toolset for most folks is now much greater than when they started.

You're right OP, its important to keep the game accessible, and hopefully Bioware is smart enough to realize that.  Faction changes affect all levels...  provide too little incentive/fun and too much of a challenge in Bronze will just drive away those casually giving MP a test run, or they'll only do it enough to raise their readiness for SP, and not stay on.

The long term viability and future updates ultimately depend on keeping a healthy population, and its better to take in more recruits that can work through the challenges than to cater for the bored top end that inevitably are already at the end of their gaming cycle in the game.

[Undine.N]

I've expressed it before and I'll say it again: I miss the game I bought.

I agree with the OP. It would probably be ok if they buffed us along with the enemy. Instead, they keep catering to the Krogan Vanguards and Geth Infiltrators who find the game too easy and care not for the dead once-upon-a-time glass cannon rotting on the floor somewhere... and no, I don't have anything against those two classes at all. It's some of the elitists who only play the strongest classes and then complain about the game being too easy who are a problem.

[SkreeMalicious]

known_hero wrote...

I strongly dislike(don't want to say hate) "newcomers". They ruin games because developers cater to them by watering stuff down.

My advice: catch up or trade in your game. If bronze is too hard, keep practicing. Don't expect developers to baby you.

Don't mean to be rude but I STRONGLY DISLIKE this "make the game more approachable for newcomers" argument.

Bronze is pretty hard for newcomers, trust me. THat should be the 'easy' setting.

But as it is, its only easy for people who have played silver and gold, or have unlocked alot of stuff, have a character at 20 etc.

Can near solo gold now, but when I first started I was very angered at just how damn artificially hard the game was made.

In previous mass effects, mobs drop in 1-2 shots each, no matter what difficulty.

In MP, its practically 1 mob per clip, sometimes multiple clips...
Yes its the combat loop, but its quite jarring for new players, even those coming from 'insanity' in ME2, enemies just have SO much damn health in MP

If new difficulty (platinum) is made, i would highly encourage a lower difficulty made too, say, 'Copper' or something... with slightly less rewards, and more welcoming to brand new players.

Think, 'solo instance' difficulty if you are familiar with mmos (and rewards accordingly adjusted, so its only really viable for brand new players to learn the ropes and learn a class or a weapon)

Modifié par SkreeMalicious, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:56 .

[ParatrooperSean]

GallowsPole wrote...

NinthGeorgesw wrote...

I'm annoyed that instead of nerfing Geth, who are completely broken, they have chosen to buff Cerberus. It shows how little Bioware know about balance.

Geth need to be fixed, not nerfed. If anything, they are even easier than Cerberus. The Hunter is really their only deadly unit and a lot of that is because they cheat like hell.

Mind you I'm new, but those Geth rocket launchers are really, really annoying. 

[Pitznik]

Eric Fagnan wrote...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
March 13, 2012
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Geth Trooper
- Weapon damage increased from 30 to 35
- (Bronze) Health increased from 750 to 825

Geth Pyro
- Damage of flamethrower increased from 50 to 65
- (Bronze) Shields increased from 750 to 1170

Geth Hunter
- (Bronze) Health increased from 750 to 900
- (Bronze) Shields increased from 675 to 1013

Yeah, that sure makes Geth wipe bronze players. What are you talking about?

Geth suffer from few bugs since always (Hunter shooting from stun, rocket spam), other than that nothing really changed. Geth Primes can't be headshot, I'll give you that.

[ParatrooperSean]

known_hero wrote...

I strongly dislike(don't want to say hate) "newcomers". They ruin games because developers cater to them by watering stuff down.

My advice: catch up or trade in your game. If bronze is too hard, keep practicing. Don't expect developers to baby you.

Don't mean to be rude but I STRONGLY DISLIKE this "make the game more approachable for newcomers" argument.

Dude it's a video game, not an exclusive motorcycle club. That's why there are difficulty levels. 

[Achire]

Interesting story, Adhok42. I've never had an experience like that on the PC, probably because very few people use mics.

I don't promote or play Bronze/Silver, so I don't have experience of what the situation is really like. However power creep is one of the most common problems in multiplayer games, and really does turn new players away. If new players get turned off the game, it affects everyone else including the "1337" or veteran players as well. Less new players means a smaller community with less people to play with, less people buying packs and ultimately less multiplayer DLC for everyone.