187 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

Excellent thread by the original poster and I agree with it 100%. You have to be very very cautious when buffing up opponents to the cries of gold plated vets. (In many cases the same ones that will hollar to the hills if their fav class and or gun is nerfed.)

Bronze is not easy for new people with lousy equipment.
Silver is not easy. Gold is not easy.

[Beerfish]

known_hero wrote...

I strongly dislike(don't want to say hate) "newcomers". They ruin games because developers cater to them by watering stuff down.

My advice: catch up or trade in your game. If bronze is too hard, keep practicing. Don't expect developers to baby you.

Don't mean to be rude but I STRONGLY DISLIKE this "make the game more approachable for newcomers" argument.

Enjoy not playing the game any more when the player base dries up.  Who said there are calls to make the game more approachable?  The arguments are two fold.  Fix some of the geth toomfoolery and do not make cerberus harder.

I will turn your argument back on you.  I hate great gold players becasue they are always calling for more of a challenge we do NOT want to cater ro gold playing vets.

See how that works?

[Ryan80537]

4 rooks should be able to beat bronze.

A rook or two can get pulled thru a silver game, I never kick out of silver and I've seen many low level players come thru my silver lobbies.

Gold should be left until you've played a lot of bronze and silver and unlocked some nice weapons.

I think new players should stick to bronze and use teamwork to win, which is a great place to start. My personal opinion is that bronze is not too hard for new players.

[BobWalt]

known_hero wrote...

I strongly dislike(don't want to say hate) "newcomers". They ruin games because developers cater to them by watering stuff down.

My advice: catch up or trade in your game. If bronze is too hard, keep practicing. Don't expect developers to baby you.

Don't mean to be rude but I STRONGLY DISLIKE this "make the game more approachable for newcomers" argument.

Interesting  - I  I  I ... There is a pattern there.

If Bioware takes this track then ME3 has not future.  Without attracting new users MP will die.  I suspect that there are still a great many ME3 single players that have not tried multiplayer.  The only way for MP to continure is to make sure it is accessable to this group.

[A Wild Snorlax]

They've buffed the players more than they've buffed enemies overall.

[dr octagon 3000]

I often wonder on those who call for buffs, who likely have max gear, take into account the newcomer. Do these people remember how hard things were when they started -- bad builds/no weapons/mods etc.? After 100s of hours of play and gear/weapon acquisition, SHOULDN'T the game come easier? That being said, my brother recently (finally) got into MP and he doesn't find it overwhelmingly difficult so hey what do I know...

Modifié par dr octagon 3000, 04 juillet 2012 - 02:18 .

[ryoldschool]

I think its a problem for new players because while somebody who has been playing a while will have decent weapons and gear to make up for the "balances" - nerfs to classes and guns, buffs to enemy, somebody playing a weapon-based class won't have those.

[Adhok42]

Achire wrote...

Interesting story, Adhok42. I've never had an experience like that on the PC, probably because very few people use mics.

Not the first time I've answered questions before.

Here's another story to put things in perspective.

The Map was FBG/R/B ((F)ire(B)ase (G)host against ®eapers on (B)ronze if you're confused). My first game of the night. I usually do a Bronze to warm up since it's the least threatening to me. Was playing my HSo Grenadier. All of the guys I played with were triple digits, had a decent loadout, and knew what they were doing as evidinced by the slaughterfest on the first three waves. Wave 3 was a circle hack objective in the LZ killbox. We all played it smart and all got into the circle to finish the hack as quickly as possible and then break for more defendable positions. We owned the wave.

Wave 6 the exact same objective in the exact same location.

INSTEAD of all getting into the circle, only myself and another player got in while the other two decided to run off and not help speed things up. They got overrun and killed trying to retreat but I was pinned in the Killzone and couldn't go rescue them. The other player bravely tried to go help them and only managed to get one of them up but they couldn't fight their way into the box and were killed. I was still pinned and couldn't help them.

That turned into the longest 4 minutes I ever played valiantly weathering grenades, Husks, Cannibals, and Marauders going though all of my medi-gel and ops packs to ensure the objective was completed and we would at least get the money. I could have just saved my consumable and let us fail but nope. I just had to grit my teeth and ensure the credits flowed.

They got me in the end when I tried to escape the killzone but we got paid at least. Only twice I have had a Bronze game feel like a Gold like it did that day. I'm sure there are newcomers who feel the same way when they first get started. Even Bronze feels like Gold at times.

[ryoldschool]

Ryan80537 wrote...

4 rooks should be able to beat bronze.

A rook or two can get pulled thru a silver game, I never kick out of silver and I've seen many low level players come thru my silver lobbies.

Gold should be left until you've played a lot of bronze and silver and unlocked some nice weapons.

I think new players should stick to bronze and use teamwork to win, which is a great place to start. My personal opinion is that bronze is not too hard for new players.

When you start out you have reduced medigel and rocket capacity, no gear, and level one guns.   It was a pain in the **** to play a weapon based class with that set-up.

[known_hero]

InTheZone wrote...

known_hero wrote...

I strongly dislike(don't want to say hate) "newcomers". They ruin games because developers cater to them by watering stuff down.

My advice: catch up or trade in your game. If bronze is too hard, keep practicing. Don't expect developers to baby you.

Don't mean to be rude but I STRONGLY DISLIKE this "make the game more approachable for newcomers" argument.

It's a ****ing game bro, deal with it. Christ, some people are just overzealous jerks.

Why am I a overzealous jerk? Because I tell newcomers to practice if they want to improve instead of asking developers to dumb things down?

Like I said before, I did't mean to be rude by my comment. My problem is that I've seen too many games get ruined by this "catering to newcomers" mentality. It's like these people just want an easy button instead of putting in the work to fine tune their skills.

Really, a harder bronze is going to help ease players into silver. Some players in the community complained that the difficulty gap from bronze to silver was too wide. What about those gamers? I'll cater to them, not people who just picked up the game a couple days ago.

[Poison_Berrie]

Enemies buff on bronze:

Geth Trooper
- Weapon damage increased from 30 to 35
- (Bronze) Health increased from 750 to 825

Geth Pyro
- Damage of flamethrower increased from 50 to 65
- (Bronze) Shields increased from 750 to 1170

Geth Hunter
- Fixed a bug where Hunters would never re-cloak after decloaking to fire on Gold

- (Bronze) Health increased from 750 to 900
- (Bronze) Shields increased from 675 to 1013

Other than that there were some bugfixes (headshots that never were supposed to be possible) and there are still some bugs (mostly for Geth).
On the other hand a whole load of weapons got upgraded and most powers have received buffs (with a only a few getting nerfed).

This idea that Bronze has gotten so much harder exists only in the heads of people.
Seriously stop pretending that all the players have been getting is nerfs and enemies have gotten huge buffs. Read the balance changes and see that you are indeed false.

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 04 juillet 2012 - 02:29 .

[psrz]

known_hero wrote...

I strongly dislike(don't want to say hate) "newcomers". They ruin games because developers cater to them by watering stuff down.

My advice: catch up or trade in your game. If bronze is too hard, keep practicing. Don't expect developers to baby you.

Don't mean to be rude but I STRONGLY DISLIKE this "make the game more approachable for newcomers" argument.

I strongly dislike rather insulting posts like this, but whatever.

We're talking about Bronze. Bronze is supposed to be easy for everybody. You should go in there with N7 rank 1, with Predator 1, Avenger 1 on you human soldier level 1 and still have fun. That's what's bronze for.
If you can't satisfy your epeen with bronze go play gold, or ask for uber-adamiantum level.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Well, Bronze is perfectly doable for a newcomer, isn't it? It's the easy setting.

[Ryan80537]

ryoldschool wrote...

Ryan80537 wrote...

4 rooks should be able to beat bronze.

A rook or two can get pulled thru a silver game, I never kick out of silver and I've seen many low level players come thru my silver lobbies.

Gold should be left until you've played a lot of bronze and silver and unlocked some nice weapons.

I think new players should stick to bronze and use teamwork to win, which is a great place to start. My personal opinion is that bronze is not too hard for new players.

When you start out you have reduced medigel and rocket capacity, no gear, and level one guns.   It was a pain in the **** to play a weapon based class with that set-up.

I'll admit that I played mostly Human Engineer when I first started playing the MP.  Still, I feel Bronze doesn't require more than 1 missile, and teamwork can negate the lack of medigel.

I play on the PC, and I strongly feel the PC community is more open to new players and more forgiving to new players than it was 1 or 2 months ago.  At least in bronze and silver, gold is not a place for beginners I think most would agree.

[Chaoswind]

but without newcomers the game will die faster...

that what you all want?

Bio should make a platinum difficulty and be done with this, the game is hard enough to the point that bronze is incredible hard for new players with standard weapons and no mods/gear; the game has become easier to the pros? then make a Plat difficulty, people will try to solo it that that will keep thing fresh.

oh and also BIOWARE give us a mixed factions option already!!!!

[NotPotato]

ryoldschool wrote...

When you start out you have reduced medigel and rocket capacity, no gear, and level one guns.   It was a pain in the **** to play a weapon based class with that set-up.

When I was a rookie, it didn't take me a mentor or hours to realize my guns suck and I should stick to using casters.

Smart people learn to adapt to the circumstances, dumb people stick to their false assumptions and whine after getting their asses kicked (both in lobbies and by enemies...)

Come to think of it, this should be emphasized much more... Casters are way more rookie-friendly than weapon-based classes.

So this goes out to all rookies - who are always welcome to ask me questions:
CASTERS ARE WAY MORE ROOKIE-FRIENDLY THAN WEAPON-BASED classES! PLAY THEM.
(what's up with the weird formatting up there? -------------------------^ )

Modifié par NotPotato, 04 juillet 2012 - 02:45 .

[Beerfish]

known_hero wrote...


Why am I a overzealous jerk? Because I tell newcomers to practice if they want to improve instead of asking developers to dumb things down?

Like I said before, I did't mean to be rude by my comment. My problem is that I've seen too many games get ruined by this "catering to newcomers" mentality. It's like these people just want an easy button instead of putting in the work to fine tune their skills.

Really, a harder bronze is going to help ease players into silver. Some players in the community complained that the difficulty gap from bronze to silver was too wide. What about those gamers? I'll cater to them, not people who just picked up the game a couple days ago.

1)  You have ignored the fact that nothing at all has been said of dumbing down.  It is in response to buffing enemies.

2)  No, making harder bronze for brand new players will cause them to lose....alot and not stay as long term players.

Bronze is fine as it is, silver is fine as it is.

[pdills12]

Bronze is fine for "newcomers" I don't see anything really wrong with it. Also given the fact that these new players will probably be pair with someone who knows what they are doing they will learn how the game is played.

[Bleachrude]

Er...given all the buffs to classes, powers and weapons, versus the nerfs, I'm not exactly seeing the game getting harder...if anything, it might have been getting easier for newcomers...

[known_hero]

Beerfish wrote...

known_hero wrote...


Why am I a overzealous jerk? Because I tell newcomers to practice if they want to improve instead of asking developers to dumb things down?

Like I said before, I did't mean to be rude by my comment. My problem is that I've seen too many games get ruined by this "catering to newcomers" mentality. It's like these people just want an easy button instead of putting in the work to fine tune their skills.

Really, a harder bronze is going to help ease players into silver. Some players in the community complained that the difficulty gap from bronze to silver was too wide. What about those gamers? I'll cater to them, not people who just picked up the game a couple days ago.

1)  You have ignored the fact that nothing at all has been said of dumbing down.  It is in response to buffing enemies.

2)  No, making harder bronze for brand new players will cause them to lose....alot and not stay as long term players.

Bronze is fine as it is, silver is fine as it is.

Removing enemy buffs for new players = Watering down.

I disagree with #2. "Newcomers" are a plague in the gaming community because devs think they are fragile babies who need everything handed to them in a soft napkin. "Newcomers" is the reason why me3 has a narrative mode instead of a level scaling NG+ insanity. Narrative mode? Really?

If losing at something makes you quit then you weren't that dedicated from the start. We shouldn't cater to these people.

I agree with your last comment.

[DeathScepter]

i do love a good challenge but I want to the developers to buff all weapons and classes.

Weapons Overall: +1.5 Buff
classes Overall: +1.5 Buff
Enemies Overall: +1 Buff

I do want a challenge but not so absurd that we can't have fun. So that is why Enemies are +1 buff and not a +1.5 buff.

[The Tookah]

I strongly agree with the OP. I won't call myself a newcomer. I am just not very good. No matter how much I practice, I am not likely to ever complete silver or gold solo. I rarely play above bronze and usually play caster classes because I can hide more. Some players seem to think I should just leave if I cannot play as well as they do. Why? I like the game. I won't intrude on the gold games where they seem to excel. Why should BW make bronze harder when they can simply make the gold level harder, or add a platinum level. Leave bronze to newcomers and those of us who will probably never be gold players (even if that is only me.)

Modifié par The Tookah, 04 juillet 2012 - 02:55 .

[AmicusHumaniGeneris]

known_hero wrote...

I strongly dislike(don't want to say hate) "newcomers". They ruin games because developers cater to them by watering stuff down.

My advice: catch up or trade in your game. If bronze is too hard, keep practicing. Don't expect developers to baby you.

Don't mean to be rude but I STRONGLY DISLIKE this "make the game more approachable for newcomers" argument.

If you've been here long enough to whine about newcomers, you ought to to be good enough to play something other than Bronze, in which case anything done to helpt these newcomers won't affect you. If you're still on Bronze, well, you're still a noob who still needs to be eased into the game until you can play Silver. SIlver and Gold doesn't have to be affected by anything done in Bronze to encourage new players.

I STRONGLY DISLIKE this elitism you represent, as making things less enjoyable means that my potential future Gold party members won't join up, thereby decreasing the longevity of the game itself as the playerbase erodes over time.

[kmmd60]

Frankly, I can remember when I was fresh in MP back in march.

MP is a new and terrible experience when I started. Bronze was really hard. It's unlike SP in so many ways that I was confused and frustrated. I mean really frustrated. I kept dying in every wave and every manner imaginable. I even considered stop playing MP.

Now that I learned the rope and look back, it's rather horrendous.

BW should add a tutorial mode for MP rookies. Let them learn the rope a bit. Teach them things that's different from SP. Just create a scenario on a certain map and slowly guide a rook through concept of MP. No monetary reward should be given in tutorial to keep it from farming attempt.

I don't think the difficulty should be toned down.

[psrz]

known_hero wrote...

Removing enemy buffs for new players = Watering down.

Bronze is fine as it is now. We're talking about Bronze. But they're planning on buffing Cerberus on all difficulty settings. Including Bronze. Not watering down anything