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Entry Barrier: Constant Spikes in Difficulty have Made This Game Unapproachable For New Gamers


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#51
known_hero

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psrz wrote...

known_hero wrote...

Removing enemy buffs for new players = Watering down.



Bronze is fine as it is now. We're talking about Bronze. But they're planning on buffing Cerberus on all difficulty settings. Including Bronze. Not watering down anything


According to the op, bronze in it's current state is too hard for newcomers because of the enemy buffs that have already been implemented.

My point is if you remove the already implemented buffs because you want to cater to newcomers = watering down.

#52
JaimasOfRaxis

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No, my issue is that Bioware is planning to buff Cerberus soon. Given that the last time they buffed a faction, it turned the Geth into buggy unstoppable death-machines, my concern has merit. I don't want to see this game bottom out because they lopsidedly decided that we didn't have enough Phantoms in our day or that Synckills weren't killing us enough.

#53
puldalpha

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JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

No, my issue is that Bioware is planning to buff Cerberus soon. Given that the last time they buffed a faction, it turned the Geth into buggy unstoppable death-machines, my concern has merit. I don't want to see this game bottom out because they lopsidedly decided that we didn't have enough Phantoms in our day or that Synckills weren't killing us enough.

Bioware stated that they are not changing phantoms in anyway. At worst guardians will move faster with more health. Atlas's might get another thousand shields/armor. etc.

#54
JaimasOfRaxis

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They also said there was not going to be any stealth buffs/nerfs.

1.03 certainly proved otherwise.

#55
Gornok

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If you have no experience in the game before the changes to make the game difficult, you would not know the difference in the difficulty and play the game as is... what you are referring to is the crappy player which had the game and couldn't hack it to begin with, then when the game is buffed they could see the difference with their crappy game play...

as the old saying says

If you can't hang with the big dogs, stay on the porch.

#56
Pitznik

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JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

They also said there was not going to be any stealth buffs/nerfs.

1.03 certainly proved otherwise.

What do you mean? Mass hysteria, perceived buffs of Geth I didn't notice? "Onyxia deep breaths more".

#57
Dorje Sylas

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kmmd60 wrote...

Frankly, I can remember when I was fresh in MP back in march.

MP is a new and terrible experience when I started. Bronze was really hard. It's unlike SP in so many ways that I was confused and frustrated. I mean really frustrated. I kept dying in every wave and every manner imaginable. I even considered stop playing MP.

Now that I learned the rope and look back, it's rather horrendous.

BW should add a tutorial mode for MP rookies. Let them learn the rope a bit. Teach them things that's different from SP. Just create a scenario on a certain map and slowly guide a rook through concept of MP. No monetary reward should be given in tutorial to keep it from farming attempt.

I don't think the difficulty should be toned down.


Well... when I started back in the Demo I was one of those people who was playing on Insanity in ME2. Kinda the same thing holds for ME3 SP. If you play on Insanity and don't use the tatical/pause hud much you should be well able for Bronze MP out the gate.

Use cover, cover, cover, more cover, and look behind you. That about summons up the core skills.

Modifié par Dorje Sylas, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:20 .


#58
Bleachrude

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Again...perhaps someone can help/confirm, but isn't bronze EASIER given how many buffs we have gotten compared to nerfs?

#59
JaimasOfRaxis

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What do you mean? Mass hysteria, perceived buffs of Geth I didn't notice? "Onyxia deep breaths more".


1.03 had a number of "upgrades" that went under the radar:
* Hunters became staggerproof and can reliably shoot whilst stasis'd/netted/knocked into the air
* Rocket troopers became capable of firing in salvos
* Primes began to place 2 geth turrets at a time
* Synckills take much shorter (so no chance you're going to be saved from an Atlas/Banshee now)
* Bleed-out now automatically happens if you're within a certain threshhold of dying (presumably done to help host connectivity issues).

#60
Nelzeben

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puldalpha wrote...

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

No, my issue is that Bioware is planning to buff Cerberus soon. Given that the last time they buffed a faction, it turned the Geth into buggy unstoppable death-machines, my concern has merit. I don't want to see this game bottom out because they lopsidedly decided that we didn't have enough Phantoms in our day or that Synckills weren't killing us enough.

Bioware stated that they are not changing phantoms in anyway. At worst guardians will move faster with more health. Atlas's might get another thousand shields/armor. etc.


Yeah, or Centurions become the new Marauders and the Nemeses suddenly turn into fast Ravagers that cannot be staggered in any way. Or the change will be utterly meaningless, because there doesn't seem to be a middle ground. :-/


Regardless, I haven't noticed Bronze becoming harder. In fact, back when I started playing MP (about a week after the game came out), wiping on Bronze was entirely possible, sometimes even likely. Now when I play a Bronze match after promoting, it usually turns into a game of "find the enemy". Not always - I remember actually having to solo part of wave 9 and 10 against Reapers with my lv 1 Get engineer once which was baffling, but highly unusual.
That said, I do think there should be some sort of tutorial; MP was very overwhelming for me at first. But since the chances (at least on PC?) are good that you'll run into an experienced player (or three) now, I don't think Bronze would be all that frustrating for newcomers. Of course, maybe some people will feel strongly about not being able to contribute much.

#61
The Tookah

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Gornok wrote...

as the old saying says

If you can't hang with the big dogs, stay on the porch.


How about:  If the little dogs are no challenge, go play in the big kid playground.  Let the crappy players have bronze.  Go play gold.

#62
d_nought

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Nelzeben wrote...


Regardless, I haven't noticed Bronze becoming harder. In fact, back when I started playing MP (about a week after the game came out), wiping on Bronze was entirely possible, sometimes even likely. Now when I play a Bronze match after promoting, it usually turns into a game of "find the enemy". Not always - I remember actually having to solo part of wave 9 and 10 against Reapers with my lv 1 Get engineer once which was baffling, but highly unusual.

Low level weapons
Mods
Capacity upgrades
Experience

#63
Nelzeben

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chipsandwich wrote...

Nelzeben wrote...


Regardless, I haven't noticed Bronze becoming harder. In fact, back when I started playing MP (about a week after the game came out), wiping on Bronze was entirely possible, sometimes even likely. Now when I play a Bronze match after promoting, it usually turns into a game of "find the enemy". Not always - I remember actually having to solo part of wave 9 and 10 against Reapers with my lv 1 Get engineer once which was baffling, but highly unusual.

Low level weapons
Mods
Capacity upgrades
Experience


....are you referring to why the rest of the team went down? I know these things make it harder, I didn't mean to sound like I was bragging, just describing that it doesn't happen a lot at all. (I remember that particular match very well, because only one of them had a low N7 rank and therefore less than decent weapons. Edit: But then, it WAS Bronze which is meant for people who don't feel that comfortable with the game mechanics yet. Again, I only meant to describe that something that could be the norm is actually a fairly rare occurrence.)

Modifié par Nelzeben, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:43 .


#64
shadowkinz

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GallowsPole wrote...

NinthGeorgesw wrote...

I'm annoyed that instead of nerfing Geth, who are completely broken, they have chosen to buff Cerberus. It shows how little Bioware know about balance.


Geth need to be fixed, not nerfed. If anything, they are even easier than Cerberus. The Hunter is really their only deadly unit and a lot of that is because they cheat like hell.


I doubt they can fix that.. It's because charge weapons can be fired while running/moving/etc...  Geth hunters use the GPS, which can do what i just mentioned.  They would have to somehow fix the problem of charging weapons, which would suck bc then it would mean you can't charge while you run.  That's why hunters can shoot you while staggered. 

Actually in hindsight maybe they can do some sort of command /if stagger /gun off or something (i am not a programmer and have no idea how, just saying xD b/c i kno sometimes they run on checks)

#65
psrz

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Gornok wrote...


as the old saying says

If you can't hang with the big dogs, stay on the porch.


Exactly. Bronze should be the porch.
You big old awesome alpha dog can play on Gold if that suits you. Let the others have their fun.

#66
shadowkinz

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the thing about difficulty in this game, is that instead of just being challenging, the mobs are just flat out CHEAP.

for instance:


Magnet hands

auto aim rockets through 12 holes in a map

the stupid spawn system (rocket a platoon of 3 primes and 6 pyros to carry the package through, and they spawn right before your eyes in the same spot, b/c your team is still behind u sluggishly trudging along with the package)

Hunters stagger shooting you (due to the mechanics of the GPS which would be hard to fix without annoying players too)

Rezzing without stagger immunity

etc...

#67
Pitznik

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JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

1.03 had a number of "upgrades" that went under the radar:
* Hunters became staggerproof and can reliably shoot whilst stasis'd/netted/knocked into the air
* Rocket troopers became capable of firing in salvos

Wasn't that always like that?

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...
* Primes began to place 2 geth turrets at a time

Eh, never happened to me, or I didn't notice. Have to check that one.

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...
* Synckills take much shorter (so no chance you're going to be saved from an Atlas/Banshee now)
* Bleed-out now automatically happens if you're within a certain threshhold of dying (presumably done to help host connectivity issues).

Yeah, that is right, but not really a big deal.... Correct me if I am wrong but only Banshee sync kill used to be interruptable, and I could swear it still is (I don't know how that relates to lack of animation, but she certainly dropped me).

#68
astheoceansblue

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Bronze is ridiculously easy. I know people who are useless at TPSs who can extract without a headache. Lot of fuss over nothing, imo.

#69
Barneyk

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NinthGeorgesw wrote...

It shows how little Bioware know about balance.


Are you really this arrogant?
Do you really think that you personally know more about game balance than all of bioware that has access to loads and loads of data?

It baffles me how arrogant and entitled some gamers are... :)

#70
ParthianShotX

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known_

Why am I a overzealous jerk? Because I tell newcomers to practice if they want to improve instead of asking developers to dumb things down?

Like I said before, I did't mean to be rude by my comment. My problem is that I've seen too many games get ruined by this "catering to newcomers" mentality. It's like these people just want an easy button instead of putting in the work to fine tune their skills.

Really, a harder bronze is going to help ease players into silver. Some players in the community complained that the difficulty gap from bronze to silver was too wide. What about those gamers? I'll cater to them, not people who just picked up the game a couple days ago.


Bottomline:  you were once a newcomer too and, when you were a newcomer, you faced an easier bronze.  You built up your manifest and now it's easy to say that newcomers should suffer through a harder difficulty level than you did on bronze.  Does that about sum it up?

#71
Tzarakiel

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Bleachrude wrote...

Again...perhaps someone can help/confirm, but isn't bronze EASIER given how many buffs we have gotten compared to nerfs?

Few to none of those buffs apply to the starting characters and weapons, which is a major problem when buffing the enemies on the lowest difficulty, as it makes it much harder for players that don't have all those buffed weapons and characters.

Modifié par Tzarakiel, 04 juillet 2012 - 04:57 .


#72
Poison_Berrie

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JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

1.03 had a number of "upgrades" that went under the radar:
* Hunters became staggerproof and can reliably shoot whilst stasis'd/netted/knocked into the air
* Rocket troopers became capable of firing in salvos
* Primes began to place 2 geth turrets at a time

I'm not completely sure about the last one, but I'm pretty sure these are bugs

* Synckills take much shorter (so no chance you're going to be saved from an Atlas/Banshee now)

Haven't really noticed that. I mean there wasn't enough time to whip out a Rocket Launcher and save a grabbed person before.
And there's still time to stagger if have something capable of it at hand.

* Bleed-out now automatically happens if you're within a certain threshhold of dying (presumably done to help host connectivity issues).

It's was their "fix" for some sort of issue related to dying/reviving. Not much of a fix.

#73
Bleachrude

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Tzarakiel wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Again...perhaps someone can help/confirm, but isn't bronze EASIER given how many buffs we have gotten compared to nerfs?

Few to none of those buffs apply to the starting characters and weapons, which is a major problem when buffing the enemies on the lowest difficulty, as it makes it much harder for players that don't have all those buffed weapons and characters.

Common characters that got buffed

Soldiers - HUGE boost. Compare AR to what it was when the MP was first released to what it was now. Human Soldiers went from "don't even play this class on silver| to "damn this class is strong on Gold"

Sentinel - Again...contrast the uselessness of tech armour (where before, it actually made sense to actually spec 0 points in it to "max outt this bad boy"

Adept - Contrast Singularity as it stands now to what singularity was at the beginning....Sure, it still is n't that hot on gold versus cerberus but it is still unquestionably stronger than it was before on Bronze.

Vanguard - Shockwave is actually useful now. Point in their favour IMO.

The only common character to actually receive a nerf is Infiltrators....Given also how easy it is to unlock uncommon characters (you pretty much will get 1 in your first 3 packs), the only ones to recevie a nerf were the infiltrators.

Same thing with the common weapons
Mantis is lighter, shruiken got a damage increase and katana I think got a buff as well...

In fact, I don't think one common OR uncommon gun has received a nerf.....

#74
DragonRacer in Mourning

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JaimasOfRaxis wrote...


What do you mean? Mass hysteria, perceived buffs of Geth I didn't notice? "Onyxia deep breaths more".


1.03 had a number of "upgrades" that went under the radar:
* Hunters became staggerproof and can reliably shoot whilst stasis'd/netted/knocked into the air
* Rocket troopers became capable of firing in salvos
* Primes began to place 2 geth turrets at a time
* Synckills take much shorter (so no chance you're going to be saved from an Atlas/Banshee now)
* Bleed-out now automatically happens if you're within a certain threshhold of dying (presumably done to help host connectivity issues).


I would add to that the fact that Cerberus troopers and geth troopers seem waaaaaaaaaay faster in executing. I remember a time when it felt like I almost had full bleed out time to book it to rez a teammate. Now, I start running and about 2 seconds later a trooper is already stomping their head. And I'm not talking about someone who died on the complete opposite side of the map. I'm talking some poor sap who went down just around the corner from me.

This is partly why I will sometimes spend my time doing a "Bronze Day". Now that I'm pretty reliable to almost always extract in silver unless things have really gone to poop, I'll take a break and go host a bronze room. I'll then help the rookies if they have questions or seem confused. And you know what? For all the stories I hear about people who offer advice getting met with defensive snark, I seem to experience way more people expressing appreciation.

A great example was last Sunday. My husband is in that spot of bronze being easy, but silver being a little too difficult still. He wanted to play with me, so I hosted a bronze room and invited him in, then filled the other two spots with public randoms. We had an N17 with a Level 17 human female infiltrator come in. The last spot rotated a lot from game to game. That poor N17 was... not very good. Not terribly great with the sniper rifle, but she was trying, bless her heart (I say she because the name certainly pointed in that direction, though she had no mic). And I really can't say much because I'm a terrible sniper, too... one reason I don't do infiltrators much, outside of a shotgun one occasionally.

But that N17 hung around for HOURS. She was the first to immediately ready up and she tried hard every wave. She even learned the hard way that you can't run while holding the pizza, and I nicely let her know the other things that would and wouldn't cause it to drop from you. After my husband left the room to play a different game, I didn't have the heart to leave because that little N17 kept readying up so quickly to go again. I can only assume she liked my advice and didn't find it annoying/condescending because she readied so fast every time.

And dangit if I didn't start feeling a bit motherly about her. I rezzed her when needed, she stuck by my side quite a bit and yet did go venture out on her own at times. And she struggled so hard with the sniping but seemed determine to improve, so I started doing a little trick to help her. I ran my Turian Sentinel the whole time, so I would overload an enemy I could see she had her eye on. That got them to stop running and just stand there and writhe with electricity... long enough for her to draw a bead and fire. Did that a LOT with the geth, especially. Figured once she gets good at sniping non-running enemies, she'll eventually get better at hitting them on the run. Seemed to work, too, although I get the impression someone must have yelled at her for kill-stealing before she joined my room. At first, she would avoid the things I overloaded, like I had "claimed" them as mine to kill. Once I told her to shoot the things I overloaded, we were off. Got her up to N7 20 and she was starting to get more points each match by the time I finally left (like, 3 hours later LOL).

And you know what? It was fun, helping the new kids like that. There was one match where they would have failed on Jade/Geth because they all three went down and I had to burn a rocket to clear it out and revive them (yeah, I could have let them die and finished the round solo, but that's not my personality; I would rather revive teammates at all costs... especially those that died via circumstance and not because they were being morons).

I call it "rookie farming". Not farming in the sense of FBW/G/G. But farming in that I am taking time to help cultivate a new crop of MP players, trying to ensure I will always have someone to play with in the future. Posted Image

#75
SkreeMalicious

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kmmd60 wrote...

Frankly, I can remember when I was fresh in MP back in march.

MP is a new and terrible experience when I started. Bronze was really hard. It's unlike SP in so many ways that I was confused and frustrated. I mean really frustrated. I kept dying in every wave and every manner imaginable. I even considered stop playing MP.

Now that I learned the rope and look back, it's rather horrendous.

BW should add a tutorial mode for MP rookies. Let them learn the rope a bit. Teach them things that's different from SP. Just create a scenario on a certain map and slowly guide a rook through concept of MP. No monetary reward should be given in tutorial to keep it from farming attempt.

I don't think the difficulty should be toned down.



THIS EXACTLY