187 réponses à ce sujet

[Meatiershower]

SkreeMalicious wrote...

kmmd60 wrote...

Frankly, I can remember when I was fresh in MP back in march.

MP is a new and terrible experience when I started. Bronze was really hard. It's unlike SP in so many ways that I was confused and frustrated. I mean really frustrated. I kept dying in every wave and every manner imaginable. I even considered stop playing MP.

Now that I learned the rope and look back, it's rather horrendous.

BW should add a tutorial mode for MP rookies. Let them learn the rope a bit. Teach them things that's different from SP. Just create a scenario on a certain map and slowly guide a rook through concept of MP. No monetary reward should be given in tutorial to keep it from farming attempt.

I don't think the difficulty should be toned down.

THIS EXACTLY

[BjornDaDwarf]

Tzarakiel wrote...
Few to none of those buffs apply to the starting characters and weapons, which is a major problem when buffing the enemies on the lowest difficulty, as it makes it much harder for players that don't have all those buffed weapons and characters.

Wait, what?

Every Human except the Infiltrator has received Buffs since release.  Every human is capable of being a top-tier Gold class, except maybe the Engineer.  Not sure about it.  But Vanguards, Soldiers, Adepts, Sents and Infils are all totally boss.  Let me illustrate:

Buffed - HSoldier - Gets AdRush = Totally Boss - Plus gets buffed FrGrenades
Buffed - HVanguard=NovaGuard=Totally Boss -  Plus gets buffed Shockwave
HInfil - Still an Infiltrator, still Totally Boss
Buffed - HAdept - Gets most powerful BE in the game = Totally Boss - Plus Buffed Shockwave
Buffed - HSent - Gets Warp/Throw, basically a Junior AA = Totally Boss - Plus Buffed TechArmor
Buffed - HEngi - Gets Over/Inci, which is not a bad starting combination, plus Buffed Drone - Maybe not totally boss

So you're saying that these 5 totally boss Gold caliber classes are too weak for Bronze? 

The problem is not starting difficulty, it's not starting characters, it's not starting equipment.  The problem is the lack of starting knowledge.  It takes time for people to figure out powers, classes, and limitations they never encountered in SP.  It takes time to get used to the flow and enemy count on MP (as you rarely see the same number of enemies in SP). 

[Strict31]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...


When we all started, the game was genuinely easier and gentler to us - we could phase into the challenge gradually, and wipes on Bronze were relatively rare outside the Snowball Effect that usually occurs when a party member gets Synckilled. Now, it's far harder - and even buggier - and the days of relatively middling-difficulty Bronze are a thing of the past. It can be argued that these players could simply hook up with friends who are fully-leveled, but one must be fair - these are players infinitely more likely to wind up in PUGs. With that in mind, the current metagame seems angled against newcomers specifically!

This is problematic. The community needs its influx of newcomers. They're both a source of revenue and part of what fuels the online multiplayer. The way things are headed, it's only going to drive off the newcomers all the harder. We need to stop for a moment with the rampant charge towards nerfing players/buffing the enemies, and analyze the best ways to do it, because this game can ill-afford another Geth faction disaster.

When my friends and I started playing this game, we had little to no experience with MP games. I'd played some Counterstrike back in the day, and simply didn't care for it. It's safe to say we sucked at MP.

We'd wipe on Bronze a lot when we started, so I never had that experience of Bronze seeming easier that you mention above.

Since then, we've gone on to Silver, and now we play Gold on a regular basis. We've increased our skills so much that it's hard for us to imagine how we ever struggled so damn much on Bronze. I don't ever want to have that elitist attitude that some posters on the board have, but the biggest obstacle in Bronze for me is how dull it is. The first time you go back to Bronze after beating Gold, you spend the first two waves thinking, "this is a ghost town!" And your perspective automatically changes.

But just because now it's hard to imagine how much we struggled when we started Bronze months ago doesn't mean we didn't struggle. That was before all the buffs and weapon nerfs, and we neophytes still found it tough.

That's something you should, IMO consider in your estimation; for new players; for neophytes, there was always a high level of starting challenge on Bronze. It's not simply something that leaped into existence with todays Cerberus buff, or with the string of balance changes we've had over the months.

The enemy buffs on Bronze probably aren't helping with that, but my point here is thatthere is a strong element of skill development at play in this game. You struggle through Bronze and it increases your skills. It increases them to the point that you become capable of meeting and exceeding the challenges set before you. So much so that soon, you're playing Gold even with characters you never particularly liked, and you're still winning.

Sure that doesn't happen for every player; and a lot of players settle into a comfortable difficulty level below Gold. But there is a sense of satisfaction that cannot be ignored when you advance from struggling in Bronze to routinely beating Gold. That sense of accomplishment might not amount to a hill of beans in the real world where we gotta pay bills and go to work. But in the game, it is king.

We gotta remain mindful of taking that sense of accomplishment and advancement from players just for the sake of keeping entry barriers low.

[Undine.N]

I just want to add this because it doesn't seem like many have noticed or even care:

The changes made to the Multiplayer portion of Mass Effect 3 are hardly limited to the compendium of decimals found in the "Multiplayer balance changes" thread. Enemy AI has changed and in no insignificant manner. We used to be able to take our time soloing Bronze with a level 1 Drell Adept and have the last three enemies rush us at normal speed in an attempt to intimdate us. Now we have to hurry and destroy everything as soon as it spawns or have seven mixed tier enemies running at us like they're under some illegal drug's influence while emptying their confusingly large clips with mind boggling accuracy. Some players simply choose an above average character with much higher shields or the slightly newer health regeneration, but others simply don't find those characters fun (not to mention the newer players who don't even have accees to them yet). Should newer gamers be punished for their choice of character/class or even their build? No. They should be able to experiment with whatever class/character/build appeals to them without getting obliterated by a Centurion who had a bad day. Don't forget we are talking about a game here, it's supposed to be fun and entertaining, not frustrating. Many find a challenge fun, that includes me, but part of the fun in facing a challenge is finally surpassing it. Nobody likes to fail without end. Sure, you can simply make sure you have a full team to raise you chances, but there are experiments that simply can't be conducted in a full squad. There are also those who merely want a break from conforming to other people's playstyle, so they solo a few matches. They should have those options. The game IS for 1-4 players after all, not 3-4.

I urge all those who keep bashing on new players (via their comments on threads like this one) to take a moment and think a little less selfishly. We ALL paid for this game. We ALL enjoy the Mass Effect series. We ALL deserve to be heard, and taken into consideration. We ALL deserve to have fun. =D

[Gornok]

psrz wrote...

Gornok wrote...


as the old saying says

If you can't hang with the big dogs, stay on the porch.

Exactly. Bronze should be the porch.
You big old awesome alpha dog can play on Gold if that suits you. Let the others have their fun.

and that's the thing,,, you are haaving fun... the changes to the characters, especially on bronze, is still not bad at all, unnoticeable. So how could the experience be harder for the ones who never played it... it would be the same level of difficulty as for  anyone who started out...

its not the new people who got the game you are concerned about... its those which continue to play and only play bronze after 3 months... bronze is for and always will be for new people before they bounce higher into any form of competitiom... saying that this is hard for those who recently purchased the game again is insane to say...

and the purpose of this thread.... crying that easy is too hard... too hard?

not an alpha dog, but not a puppy using a training pad either...  this is unshepardlike... this is volus biotic god like... this is verner like... bronze still feels easier than the casual level in SP with the changes... how much easier do you need to make it? Do we need the Jiggly Puffs and Barney spawn points in game for the new easier level too?

although I am making light of this... you really want bronze... easier than this?

[psrz]

Gornok wrote...

and that's the thing,,, you are haaving fun... the changes to the characters, especially on bronze, is still not bad at all, unnoticeable. So how could the experience be harder for the ones who never played it... it would be the same level of difficulty as for  anyone who started out...

its not the new people who got the game you are concerned about... its those which continue to play and only play bronze after 3 months... bronze is for and always will be for new people before they bounce higher into any form of competitiom... saying that this is hard for those who recently purchased the game again is insane to say...

If they buff the enemies on all difficulties, the game's harder ( or less easy if you want) regardless. If you're a skilled player or you're grossly overgeared for Bronze or both, of course you won't notice it . It doesn't mean the difficulty has not raised. If the changes are as negligible as you suggest they are, if they have no impact, why make them at all ? Just for the heck of it ?

What's wrong with people enjoying Bronze after 3, 6 months ?
You know, not everybody is concerned about competition. Not everybody cares about meassuring their epeens with strangers. Some people just enjoy blowing stuff up within a Mass Effect environment. Why not let them have their fun as they do now ? All those who want a bigger challeng, have Silver and Gold.

[mybudgee]

WHO TRULY THINKS Bronze is HARD!?!?!

[OhPa2]

I don't think Bronze is difficult as I have been playing since the demo. But it is still challenge enough for many casual and/or less skilled players like myself.

However many new players might find Bronze hard until they learn the game and/or earn/buy some decent weapons and gear.

I'm curious as to what percentage of the ME3 MP community usually play Gold (not just farming) and are relatively successful at it. And how many members of our community prefer Bronze or Silver?

[OhPa2]

I've read through this whole thread now and see the usual divergence of opinion.

It really seems as though a Platinum level would be a win-win for the player community and Bioware.

A strong community will respect and take care of all of its members and so stay strong.

[Urbynwyldcat]

They could always make a platinum strength match, move gold level to platinum, silver strength to hold and bronze strength to silver matches. Then make an easier bronze difficulty and slightly buff the rest.

[sydsyrious]

DragonRacer wrote...

A great example was last Sunday. My husband is in that spot of bronze being easy, but silver being a little too difficult still. He wanted to play with me, so I hosted a bronze room and invited him in, then filled the other two spots with public randoms. We had an N17 with a Level 17 human female infiltrator come in. The last spot rotated a lot from game to game. That poor N17 was... not very good. Not terribly great with the sniper rifle, but she was trying, bless her heart (I say she because the name certainly pointed in that direction, though she had no mic). And I really can't say much because I'm a terrible sniper, too... one reason I don't do infiltrators much, outside of a shotgun one occasionally.

But that N17 hung around for HOURS. She was the first to immediately ready up and she tried hard every wave. She even learned the hard way that you can't run while holding the pizza, and I nicely let her know the other things that would and wouldn't cause it to drop from you. After my husband left the room to play a different game, I didn't have the heart to leave because that little N17 kept readying up so quickly to go again. I can only assume she liked my advice and didn't find it annoying/condescending because she readied so fast every time.

And dangit if I didn't start feeling a bit motherly about her. I rezzed her when needed, she stuck by my side quite a bit and yet did go venture out on her own at times. And she struggled so hard with the sniping but seemed determine to improve, so I started doing a little trick to help her. I ran my Turian Sentinel the whole time, so I would overload an enemy I could see she had her eye on. That got them to stop running and just stand there and writhe with electricity... long enough for her to draw a bead and fire. Did that a LOT with the geth, especially. Figured once she gets good at sniping non-running enemies, she'll eventually get better at hitting them on the run. Seemed to work, too, although I get the impression someone must have yelled at her for kill-stealing before she joined my room. At first, she would avoid the things I overloaded, like I had "claimed" them as mine to kill. Once I told her to shoot the things I overloaded, we were off. Got her up to N7 20 and she was starting to get more points each match by the time I finally left (like, 3 hours later LOL).

And you know what? It was fun, helping the new kids like that. There was one match where they would have failed on Jade/Geth because they all three went down and I had to burn a rocket to clear it out and revive them (yeah, I could have let them die and finished the round solo, but that's not my personality; I would rather revive teammates at all costs... especially those that died via circumstance and not because they were being morons).

I call it "rookie farming". Not farming in the sense of FBW/G/G. But farming in that I am taking time to help cultivate a new crop of MP players, trying to ensure I will always have someone to play with in the future.

You are my hero....seriously.  We need more of this - new people need mentors.  I'm in the mood to go play a Bronze match now.

[RomanowRomanow]

most disastrous lev 1 n7 1 player can make a human sentinel and human soldier with either extremely potent biotic combo or frag grenades - both own on bronze so much that u dont need weapons - then you can use credits gained on bronze to slowly build up your manifest - its the worst scenario - 2-3 times slower grind with only 2 sensible characters out of 12 but its still doable if everything else fails

[Bolo Xia]

mybudgee wrote...

WHO TRULY THINKS Bronze is HARD!?!?!

you are forgeting back when you were a N7 1 level 1 and all your weapons are level 1 without any consumables or weapon mods. 

back then you had to hit an ammo box repeatedly just to kill 1 brute. 

btw this thread is about the same thing im posting about. just because you are not in the brand new player section anymore does not mean bronze isnt hard for brand new players. some people that are starting out in ME3 have never played a shooter so get off your high horse.

[megawug]

If BW ever adds a platinum difficulty, they really should re-balance bronze to be easier. The more accessible it is, the longer multiplayer will have active players.

[galaxygrunt]

cly57 wrote...

DragonRacer wrote...

**A nice little anectdote that more need to read**

You are my hero....seriously.  We need more of this - new people need mentors.  I'm in the mood to go play a Bronze match now.

Count me a member of the fan club as well.

I always try to be supportive of new players, but have never gone to such lengths.  Having read her account, I think I shall try harder from now on.

[jaydubs67]

Bronze should be tailored for new players and casuals.

Silver should be tailored for 4 average players.

Gold should be tailored for 4 good players with good manifests.

No reason to make bronze too challenging for newbies or gold "accessible" for bad players.

Modifié par jaydubs67, 05 juillet 2012 - 01:59 .

[Batgang alumni]

The title of this thread is a lie... It's a co op game, there for there is no skill curve for long time players compared to new player. Other pvp games are impossible to play if u dont start in the first couple months. Example (I have 4 coworkers that have started playing this game in the last month, and Love it.) in conclusion this thread is trash... Period

[Krantzstone]

Unfortunately, the game is currently geared towards awarding people for playing by making it easier for them to play (and thus, it makes it too easy for the players who got very good very fast, or just spent a lot of time playiing). If anything, everyone should start off with maxed weapons, max Cobras, max medigel, max OPS, max thermal packs... and as you get better at playing, you start losing more of these perks.

If you balance the game for the 1% who have maxed out ultra rares and who have a farkton of maxed mods, gear, carry capacity, plus arguably better races/classes, then no matter what, you're screwing over the n00b who not only has no experience playing multiplayer, but has none of these advantages (and is going to take longer to get more of these advantages due to constantly failing out of missions).

What they should do is give credits and exp to players after completing every wave, so at least even if you fail a mission half way through, you'll still get something for your 15-30 minutes you spent playing the game. Also, that would protect people with bad connections from getting cheated out of needed credits/exp who happen to lose connection before wave 10 or before extraction.

Moreover, keep Bronze relatively easy, throw in a Platinum difficulty and adjust Silver and Gold respectively. Or have some sort of Training Mode, because as it was, even when I first started playing MP, I didn't know what the hell I was doing and I had to learn everything the hard way. I can't even begin to imagine what Bronze must be like now with all the buffs to enemies, without my rares and other perks I've gained from playing a lot.

Really, all the people bragging about how they can solo Gold don't impress me much, when it's because they have all the benefits of having played for so long and racked up so many credits, and unlocked so many powerful characters and equipment, as well as all the skill they've gained from playing for so long, which allow them the ability to solo Gold. I suspect those people have entirely forgotten what it was like to not have any special weapons, to not have increased medigel, ops, cobra and thermal pack capacity, to be using Level I common weapons with no mods, no consumables, while entirely not knowing the maps, or the spawn points, or builds, or tactics, or anything.

And while some of you may enjoy playing a multiplayer game solo, for those of us who actually want to play with others, having fewer people playing because people bail out of multiplayer because the learning curve is too steep (and getting steeper by the day), is no fun.

Modifié par Krantzstone, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:12 .

[DatFeel]

If you can't play and beat Bronze, you probably shouldn't play period.

[sigma_draconis]

known_hero wrote...

I strongly dislike(don't want to say hate) "newcomers". They ruin games because developers cater to them by watering stuff down.

My advice: catch up or trade in your game. If bronze is too hard, keep practicing. Don't expect developers to baby you.

Don't mean to be rude but I STRONGLY DISLIKE this "make the game more approachable for newcomers" argument.

This sort of attitude is the thing that kills games. Like it or not, a game needs a large playerbase to sustain. Without them, server costs becomes too much to justify a small amount of dedicated players. And even those dedicated players will leave sooner or later. So if you want to be able to continue playing, then you need to have influx of new players from time to time.

And if you say "why don't they learn ot get better". The problem with that is most people don't. When the learning curve becomes too steep, most players give up and trade in the game. Only a small amount of dedicated  players would stick around (and even they will leave someday). If you want this game to be exclusive to the veteran players fine, just know that it's not going to last.

[Mgamerz]

Bronze mode.
Single Player.
Entry complete.

[BobWalt]

Mgamerz wrote...

Bronze mode.
Single Player.
Entry complete.

I ldoubt most palyers in ME3 MP could complete Bronze solo

[Mgamerz]

BobWalt wrote...

Mgamerz wrote...

Bronze mode.
Single Player.
Entry complete.

I ldoubt most palyers in ME3 MP could complete Bronze solo

Beating bronze solo has nothing to do with the entry barrier to this game. It's a co op game.

[CHAw]

Strict31 wrote...
When my friends and I started playing this game, we had little to no experience with MP games. I'd played some Counterstrike back in the day, and simply didn't care for it. It's safe to say we sucked at MP.

We'd wipe on Bronze a lot when we started, so I never had that experience of Bronze seeming easier that you mention above.

Since then, we've gone on to Silver, and now we play Gold on a regular basis. We've increased our skills so much that it's hard for us to imagine how we ever struggled so damn much on Bronze. I don't ever want to have that elitist attitude that some posters on the board have, but the biggest obstacle in Bronze for me is how dull it is. The first time you go back to Bronze after beating Gold, you spend the first two waves thinking, "this is a ghost town!" And your perspective automatically changes.

But just because now it's hard to imagine how much we struggled when we started Bronze months ago doesn't mean we didn't struggle. That was before all the buffs and weapon nerfs, and we neophytes still found it tough.

That's something you should, IMO consider in your estimation; for new players; for neophytes, there was always a high level of starting challenge on Bronze. It's not simply something that leaped into existence with todays Cerberus buff, or with the string of balance changes we've had over the months.

The enemy buffs on Bronze probably aren't helping with that, but my point here is thatthere is a strong element of skill development at play in this game. You struggle through Bronze and it increases your skills. It increases them to the point that you become capable of meeting and exceeding the challenges set before you. So much so that soon, you're playing Gold even with characters you never particularly liked, and you're still winning.

Sure that doesn't happen for every player; and a lot of players settle into a comfortable difficulty level below Gold. But there is a sense of satisfaction that cannot be ignored when you advance from struggling in Bronze to routinely beating Gold. That sense of accomplishment might not amount to a hill of beans in the real world where we gotta pay bills and go to work. But in the game, it is king.

We gotta remain mindful of taking that sense of accomplishment and advancement from players just for the sake of keeping entry barriers low.

As somebody who has been playing multiplayer since the demo, this was my experience as well. Back then, the first Phantom coming onto the field was roughly a 50/50 chance of a wipe for a typical Bronze match; if you survived it, your odds went up, but wiping on the next one was still a major threat. Nobody knew how to Tech Burst, or that you could trigger Biotic Explosions without using Warp, or that Fire/Cryo Explosions even existed. There weren't any lucky players packing Black Widows or Harriers to carry the squad with raw firepower, and each player only had 2 Cobras per match (assuming you knew what they were and how to use them) if they hadn't already used up their entire supply on the last one. We got through by slowly learning how things worked; and we had to work up to Bronze partial extractions, then full extractions, and eventually to Silver, etc.

So I have to wonder, for those people who remember Bronze as being "easy," when did you start playing multiplayer? Was it at or shortly after release? Because by then, a lot of demo veterans already knew the ropes - casters were the most powerful until you upgraded your weapons, Carnifex was king, aim your Cobras at the feet of high threat targets (especially those between you and an objective), use Stasis on Guardians/Phantoms, Salarian Infiltrator is nearly invincible, using Ops Survival Packs prevents the need for Medi-Gel/revive, stay the hell away from an Atlas/Phantom if you're not a krogan or are Charging it, etc. And many of these veterans started on Bronze again after release, making those matches a lot easier for newcomers, who could learn by observation and later demonstrate to other newcomers in turn.

[Crimson Invictus]

I just finished soloing Bronze with a level 1 Asari Adept (Reapers/Ghost) without using any equipment consumables. If I can do that I have my doubts four new players could consistently fail at Bronze once they have had some practice.

Modifié par Liana Nighthawk, 05 juillet 2012 - 02:18 .