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[Strict31]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

Strict31 wrote...

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

I just finished soloing Bronze with a level 1 Asari Adept (Reapers/Ghost) without using any equipment consumables. If I can do that I have my doubts four new players could consistently fail at Bronze once they have had some practice.

I guess we all have our doubts about what people say on the Internet.

Because it is something worth lying about, right? I didn't bother screening the Asari final score but have a Bronze solo level 1 soldier instead.

It doesn't change the fact ME3 MP is meant to be played by four people, and while Bronze can be tough to start it is hardly insurmountable for four people.

Feel free to stop for a moment and think. Why would anyone here tell a lie about doing sh*tty in Bronze when they first started playing? What's to gain from that?  That's like reverse bragging to diminish e-peen size. And yet, you've said you doubt that could be possible. Why is that? Because your skillset has advanced so much that Bronze is no longer a challenge? Or maybe because your skillset was always so high that Bronze never was a challenge?

Don't you see how that's kind of the problem?

Nevermind that soloing Bronze ain't exactly much to brag on in the eyes of most folks around here...but it's a matter of skewed perspective. As I was saying in my initial post, when I complete several Gold matches in a row with my friends, we can hardly believe we struggled so much on Bronze when we first started playing...

BUT WE DID.

If I go back and play Bronze now, it seems like a cakewalk. Not because it always was, but because my skills have grown.

So, maybe your skillset has grown. Or maybe it always was super-awesome from the moment you first picked up the game. Either way, your level of skill is skewing your perspective, and you're simply not allowing for the possibility that not everyone has that same skill you do. This is why you doubt.

Modifié par Strict31, 05 juillet 2012 - 03:16 .

[sydsyrious]

Agree with OP. There are different levels of gamers in general. BW wants them all. Sure, they would like to keep the hard core gamers who are going to breeze through bronze the first time they pick it up. Impressive, but those are the minority.

The casual weekend 1-2 hour per week gamers will never be able to put in enough time to really excel on Gold. I don't see that as a big problem but why make the levels they do enjoy more frustrating? I believe this is the majority of players.

Bronze is learning/very casual mode....or should be.

[gerryd]

rmccowen wrote...

I ignored the OP because I'm trying to keep my temper around here a little better, but... this is too much.

gerryd wrote...

Jumping in late I noticed the game was a lot harder even on bronce.

Harder than what? The demo, which was adjusted heavily for launch? Single player?

Weapon damage was reduced greatly and enemy damage was increased a lot.

No, they weren't. Geth and some Cerberus units have had buffs to health and damage, from 10-20% depending on the unit and the difficulty. That extra 75-150 health is worth less than half a second's worth of fire from an Avenger I.

I finally started getting good and could complete silver challenges for the first few days but then the game got harder and harder. So hard in fact that my last 7 games on silver my squad could barely reach wave 9. Thats 3.5 hours of play for a crappy 80k credits.

You found Silver too difficult after two weeks of play; I don't think that's unusual. Is there a reason you can't select Bronze difficulty? The same 7 games would have netted you about 105,000 credits there, and probably gone a little faster.

And regardless of whether a particular reader agrees with the OP, it's pretty certain that the game hasn't gotten substantially harder over the past two weeks, which is the timeframe we're talking about.

I've had enough, I know nerfs won't come so I'm quitting. All the veterens and their quest for a harder game have ruined it on the new guys so I wish them luck. Their own selfishness will destroy this game and in 5 months when its hard finding a game, just remember , your will to have a harder game is the reason MP died.

There's no way not to put this in personal terms, but I'll try to keep it appropriate: a lack of perseverance on your part doesn't constitute a problem on my part. Also, it's worth returning to the question of why, if you find the game too difficult, you don't simply lower the difficulty setting.

As for the veterans that will flame my statements. Not everyone is as skilled as yous or have as much free time as yous to play. Get over it. I play video games for fun and play online to have fun with people around the world. I don't play games to frustrate the crap out of me. Goodbye and please stop telling newbs to just get better with your maxed out gear that can counter these buffs.

Hi! I play for the same reason, and I also don't have a lot of free time. I get to play maybe twice a week, for two or three hours at a time.

But, one more time: the game has three difficulty settings. Two hours of play on Bronze, at half an hour per match and assuming you get to extraction only half the time, is worth 36,000 credits. If you can do that twice in a week, you can afford 14 Recruit Packs (15, including the one you start with). Because the store is often frustratingly random, that won't always level everything you have up--but those packs will contain a mix of weapon upgrades, experience for your characters, and weapon mods that will in turn make Bronze difficulty easier.

Repeat the same over another weekend, and it's likely that you will begin to have common weapons and mods maxed, and can more effectively move on to Silver. If you try to jump into Silver straightaway, you're going to abruptly find that there are more enemies there, and they deal more damage; the later waves include multiple bosses, which can be a challenge even for experienced players.

So, finding the difficulty you selected too much for your brand-new character, your considered reaction is to blame other people--namely the developers and "veterans" of BSN--and ragequit.

I would strongly encourage you to reconsider that decision and give the game a second try. It's consistently enjoyable once you get over the initial hurdle of moving from SP to MP, and I find the developers' efforts to keep the game balanced to be a net positive for the game.

Wow if you get mad over what I said then it says a lot about you man. Secondly recruit packs ain't worth crap. I have all common weapons maxed and at level 10 they still suck. Ah whatever man. I posted because I'm a newcomer and what the OP said is exactly how I feel. I'm done with the game and I ain't giving it another few weeks as I gave it 2 already.  My post was just to back up what the OP was saying because I'm the type of player hes talking about. I ain't posting to try get the game nerfed so relax your superior skill levels won't be affected.

[Mgamerz]

I highly doubt adding 3 more bullets of damage to each enemy is going to be a game breaker for newbs.

[Crimson Invictus]

Strict31 wrote...
Feel free to stop for a moment and think. Why would anyone here tell a lie about doing sh*tty in Bronze when they first started playing? What's to gain from that?  That's like reverse bragging to diminish e-peen size. And yet, you've said you doubt that could be possible. Why is that? Because your skillset has advanced so much that Bronze is no longer a challenge? Or maybe because your skillset was always so high that Bronze never was a challenge?

You can feel free to imagine things I said, that's obviously your choice. However, I have no idea what you are talking about. At no point did I claim anyone would lie about doing Bronze when they started.

What I said is that I can solo bronze as a level one, and I make no claims to be a god walking amongst mere mortals, hence I have my doubts that four players combined could fail to do bronze consistently after they have had some practice.

Four players. That is three people to pick any one player up, it is four people to divide the enemy fire between, it is four sets of weapons to concentrate on any one higher-tier enemy at a time,  it is four people to potentially bring a missile or two each, and it is a smaller set of enemies for any one person to deal with as the numbers are divided between the team.

The whole scenario also requires new players to be in a match with no more experience players. I have never been in a Bronze match where everyone was randomly an N1.

So, please, if you want to play white knight to new players do so by playing Bronze and helping them, not attempting to twist what I said into something to further your own argument about why Bronze should be made even easier than it is. Feel free to drop the condescension as well.

[Mgamerz]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

Strict31 wrote...
Feel free to stop for a moment and think. Why would anyone here tell a lie about doing sh*tty in Bronze when they first started playing? What's to gain from that?  That's like reverse bragging to diminish e-peen size. And yet, you've said you doubt that could be possible. Why is that? Because your skillset has advanced so much that Bronze is no longer a challenge? Or maybe because your skillset was always so high that Bronze never was a challenge?

You can feel free to imagine things I said, that's obviously your choice. However, I have no idea what you are talking about. At no point did I claim anyone would lie about doing Bronze when they started.

What I said is that I can solo bronze as a level one, and I make no claims to be a god walking amongst mere mortals, hence I have my doubts that four players combined could fail to do bronze consistently after they have had some practice.

Four players. That is three people to pick any one player up, it is four people to divide the enemy fire between, it is four sets of weapons to concentrate on any one higher-tier enemy at a time,  it is four people to potentially bring a missile or two each, and it is a smaller set of enemies for any one person to deal with as the numbers are divided between the team.

The whole scenario also requires new players to be in a match with no more experience players. I have never been in a Bronze match where everyone was randomly an N1.

So, please, if you want to play white knight to new players do so by playing Bronze and helping them, not attempting to twist what I said into something to further your own argument about why Bronze should be made even easier than it is. Feel free to drop the condescension as well.

I think it's cause your original post sounded like you were bragging.

[BDelacroix]

This is always the problem when someone changes their game because "its too easy" to those who have played it for weeks on end.

[neteng101]

Strict31 wrote...

So, maybe your skillset has grown. Or maybe it always was super-awesome from the moment you first picked up the game.

Even I can't speak objectively anymore how a NEW Bronze player would see the game because my own skillset has grown...  but I do remember that starting out things weren't always so easy.  I do remember using missles in Bronze, and having only 2 medi-gels/missiles in a game meant they had to be used rather sparingly.  And I'm not any super-awesome FPS type...  didn't even play the SP campaign even on Hardcore (ha, you people think everyone plays Insanity?).

The move beyond Bronze is really problematic now, since Silver has gotten more difficult too (especially post the recent DLC/patch 1.03 changes).  I find Gold is even better somedays for finishing a game now, just because the player pool that plays Gold is generally better at least on the PC side, vs. the masses I find on Silver.

Bronze may still be fine because of people promoting offsetting the newer players, but tough progression beyond that point might just lead to a lot of early quitters.  I can extract on Gold pretty regularly now but have seen more Silver scrubs now than I did back when I played mostly Silver, before the enemies got buffed, we lost headshots/weakspots on bosses, etc.  Improved skillset, but I'm not the uber elite carrying/soloing games type, and Silver is indeed harder than it was.  The number of Phantoms you can get in a single Silver wave now (given you kill/they respawn) is definitely noticeably more than it used to be.

[WandererRTF]

Avenger X is still perfectly good lightweight assault rifle, with AR or MM toggled on it becomes a real killer on Bronze. Mantis X is still good even on higher difficulties as again, it is light compared to rest of heavy hitters. Of Katana i can't really say since i have never used it. Predator X may appear to be a popgun but with the rate of fire it has it can pack a mean punch against all mobs, not to forget that it weights essentially nothing. Even Shuriken X works as caster gun quite nicely.

There is a shock coming from SP to MP but if you don't go soloing and instead act as a team and keep your mind in completing objectives you will manage.

I had horrible troubles initially with MP, most likely because i thought it would be nice to try solo it for some weird reason, probably due to reading the boasting solo stories in forums. First time i actually played with a team as a team i had no problems getting full extraction.

[Crimson Invictus]

Something I find curious is the way people have a certain fondness for looking back at how they struggled when they started yet want to give new players cardboard enemies to fight and rob them of being able to laugh later about finding Bronze hard.

Bronze really isn't much harder than it has ever been. The geth are certainly more annoying, but I don't see a problem with new players dying a few times while they learn the ropes. Losing tends to teach more valuable lessons in what not to do.

Mgamerz wrote...
I think it's cause your original post sounded like you were bragging.

I don't know, he/she appears to have completely made up random things I said in his/her own mind.

The first sentence was a statement of fact to explain my reasoning for the second, nothing more.

neteng101 wrote...
The move beyond Bronze is really problematic now, since Silver has gotten more difficult too (especially post the recent DLC/patch 1.03 changes).

That is very true, the leap between the two is significant as it is. Low Bronze rewards also make it difficult to build up a significant amount of consumables to prepare for Silver.

However, making Bronze easier certainly isn't going to help that problem as the jump is going to be even more significant.

Modifié par Liana Nighthawk, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:52 .

[ZephyrAM]

I think it's been said pretty well already, but it seems to bear repeating...

Bronze is not too hard for new players who are willing to put in the practice expected to excel at a shooter. Until you learn how to play the game will 'seem' harder, as is true of any remotely skill based gaming experience. No difficulty should ever be a cakewalk right from the very first time you pop into a game.

If you only play the game a couple hours a week at most, then I'd expect it to take 'at least' a month to attempt to move past Bronze, quite easily more depending on the players history with shooters, and how they'd basically get a little rusty in between sessions if it's only once a week.

This is all a fundamental truth in gaming. If you can't put in the time, you can't expect to magically get better.

[zRz Tyr]

GallowsPole wrote...

NinthGeorgesw wrote...

I'm annoyed that instead of nerfing Geth, who are completely broken, they have chosen to buff Cerberus. It shows how little Bioware know about balance.

Geth need to be fixed, not nerfed. If anything, they are even easier than Cerberus. The Hunter is really their only deadly unit and a lot of that is because they cheat like hell.

Last time i played against geth, there were more units that cheated..... Like the Machinge Gun Rocket Launcher Trooper and Long-Range Pyro...... No lag, i was host....

Nerfed, fixed... Does it matter? Its the geth were talking about here........

[Adhok42]

Krantzstone wrote...
I wonder if there still are older players who are willing to put in some time in the Bronze games, showing newbies how to play smartly and effectively.

Guilty. And I am not ashamed.

[jsVariable]

I think two changes to the way credits are awarded would really benefit multiplayer.

1. Start rewarding credits per wave. I think a lot of the reason people don't want new players in groups is because you can spend a ton of time on silver (and gold) matches, fail on a money round, have all the time spent getting from the previous money round to the failed money round wasted, and end up with a lot less credits than if you just breezed through a bronze match. In turn, this causes people to want to blow through bronze matches, so they boot the new players from those as well.

2. Start offering bonus credits for individual performance. People would be more willing to carry newer players through bronze/silver matches if it meant that they would be rewarded accordingly. Additionally, doing this would help alleviate the problem of players purposely putzing through matches (letting the other guys do all the work) because they know they will get the same reward regardless of how much they contribute.

If they changed those two things, trying to help new players (even if you ultimately "failed"), would make the time spent feel more rewarding. As it is now, if you don't have a group that is going to beat all the money rounds, it's extremely frustrating/not fun, and it feels like you are just wasting your time.

[Gemini Freak]

Adhok42 wrote...

Krantzstone wrote...
I wonder if there still are older players who are willing to put in some time in the Bronze games, showing newbies how to play smartly and effectively.

Guilty. And I am not ashamed.

I play on Bronze, too, for that reason.

[Adhok42]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

You can feel free to imagine things I said, that's obviously your choice. However, I have no idea what you are talking about. At no point did I claim anyone would lie about doing Bronze when they started.

What I said is that I can solo bronze as a level one, and I make no claims to be a god walking amongst mere mortals, hence I have my doubts that four players combined could fail to do bronze consistently after they have had some practice.

Four players. That is three people to pick any one player up, it is four people to divide the enemy fire between, it is four sets of weapons to concentrate on any one higher-tier enemy at a time,  it is four people to potentially bring a missile or two each, and it is a smaller set of enemies for any one person to deal with as the numbers are divided between the team.

The whole scenario also requires new players to be in a match with no more experience players. I have never been in a Bronze match where everyone was randomly an N1.

So, please, if you want to play white knight to new players do so by playing Bronze and helping them, not attempting to twist what I said into something to further your own argument about why Bronze should be made even easier than it is. Feel free to drop the condescension as well.

Obviously you weren't a Day 1 player. Nobody was N7 200 or so from the get go and nobody had anything except the Avenger, Mantis, Predator, Katana, and Shuriken at level 1. Nobody had any consumables. Nobody had anyone except the humans unlocked at level 1.

The demo may have allowed us to practice but in the Beginning this was all you had. You had no idea what to expect, what was going to happen, how you were going to survive.

It's not divided equally as you claim. Enemies will all converge on a single player and ignore the other three. When someone goes down it take THREE people out of the fight, the person down, the person reviving him, and the third covering them both meaning only one person is now doing the work of four. Not everyone can converge on the bosses, doing so mean no pressure is being put on the rest of the horde. Which sounds worse, a single boss or 36 minions all firing a wall of lead so thick you could walk on it at you?

Not every race/class is equal. Some are better at select situations then others. This is where the Varaity comes from. Mixing and matching for maximum effect.

Once the player base got themselves established they got polarized. You got those who sneer at "weakling n00bz" claiming they are the dominiant species of this virtual land and that their word is Law, they should be the only ones the Devs need to care about. Then you've got the rest of us who reach out to snatch Rookies from the jaws of death and show them how to avoid being in that situation again extending their stay as they learn how to survive which makes things more enjoyable for them.

Players are the lifeblood of any game. If a game can't interest and keep new players it's going to bleed out and die  once veterans get bored. They will get bored eventually as the Devs will finally run dry of ideas and need to move on to something else to keep them interested.

[Edalborez]

"Unapproachable"? Hardly.

[Crimson Invictus]

Adhok42 wrote...
Obviously you weren't a Day 1 player. Nobody was N7 200 or so from the get go and nobody had anything except the Avenger, Mantis, Predator, Katana, and Shuriken at level 1. Nobody had any consumables. Nobody had anyone except the humans unlocked at level 1.

I was there. If I recall we all got a free pack when we started so everyone had something.

But that time has long since passed, it would be unlikely for any player now to end up in a lobby with three other brand new players. Even if they did, the worst that happens is they lose that match, gain a few levels, and either try again or search out a new lobby.

[Anarchy_99]

I'm not a newcomer to this game and at present I am on the fence about this whole thing, it's not really the difficulty of the level that turns away new players it's the general ignorance of other gamers that is doing that, be honest how many times have you found yourself in a lobby as a high N7 and a low N7 comes in with a (for lack of better wording) weak gun and you are inclined to kick them because you are afraid they will mess with your gaming dynamics, If you took the time out to join game chat and speak with these new players and guide them through the best and worst things to do on maps and which guns are best (assuming they have them) against which enemies you will find they will do better than some of the higher leveled players, which for example last night I had a N7 9000+ in my game who despite thinking he was god's gift to mass effect online was a terrible team player and spent the majority of the game getting down by the same enemy, this just goes to show that everyone from new players to gamers with a god complex are susceptible to being really bad at the game

Modifié par Anarchy_99, 05 juillet 2012 - 06:03 .

[Strict31]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

Strict31 wrote...
Feel free to stop for a moment and think. Why would anyone here tell a lie about doing sh*tty in Bronze when they first started playing? What's to gain from that?  That's like reverse bragging to diminish e-peen size. And yet, you've said you doubt that could be possible. Why is that? Because your skillset has advanced so much that Bronze is no longer a challenge? Or maybe because your skillset was always so high that Bronze never was a challenge?

You can feel free to imagine things I said, that's obviously your choice. However, I have no idea what you are talking about. At no point did I claim anyone would lie about doing Bronze when they started.

What I said is that I can solo bronze as a level one, and I make no claims to be a god walking amongst mere mortals, hence I have my doubts that four players combined could fail to do bronze consistently after they have had some practice.

Four players. That is three people to pick any one player up, it is four people to divide the enemy fire between, it is four sets of weapons to concentrate on any one higher-tier enemy at a time,  it is four people to potentially bring a missile or two each, and it is a smaller set of enemies for any one person to deal with as the numbers are divided between the team.

The whole scenario also requires new players to be in a match with no more experience players. I have never been in a Bronze match where everyone was randomly an N1.

So, please, if you want to play white knight to new players do so by playing Bronze and helping them, not attempting to twist what I said into something to further your own argument about why Bronze should be made even easier than it is. Feel free to drop the condescension as well.

I haven't twisted anything you've said, Liana. If you doubt someone's claim, then that implies that you think the truth is not as they claim it to be. I don't really feel that I should have to explain why that is synonomous with saying someone is a liar as we are all sufficiently conversant in English. 

Because of your own skill level, you doubt anyone could find Bronze difficult. Oh, I'm sorry, you said, "with practice."

How do you practice for Bronze? By playing Bronze, perhaps? In your estimation, how much practice should it normally take? Is there perhaps a consise and exact formula? No, please do not attempt to provide an answer, because that bit of information is wholly immaterial to the point.

And the point is, regardless of your particular level of skill, there are those with skill levels below your own.

The point is, simply because you can do a thing with your skill level does not mean you have any reason to doubt it when someone informs you that they didn't find that thing quite so easy as you did. Your skills and accomplishments are a watermark for absolutely nothing in the world beyond your own skills and accomplishments.

Here's something: what if I were to say to you the following: "because I find it easy to draw the human figure without using a visual reference, I doubt anyone else would find it difficult it with practice."

Or, "because I won at Wimbledon, I doubt anyone couldn't also win with practice."

Hey, not everybody is an artist. Not everybody is a tennis pro. No matter how much I practice on the Tennis court, I'll never have the skill of a Roger Federer or some other tennis dude.

Perhaps you feel a bit of humility at your own skill level and think, "well, if I could do it, it can't be that hard..."

Maybe you shouldn't sell yourself so short, Liana. I mean, I have no particular reason to doubt your skill level. No more than you have cause to doubt  that someone else struggled at something you found easy.

But beyond that, there's no "white knight" role I wish to play. Nor do I wish Bronze was easier. While I struggled with Bronze when I first started, I've since moved on to Gold matches, and personally find Bronze quite easy. While claiming I've placed words in your mouth or twisted your argument, you may wish to consider that I've never actually stated Bronze should be easier. In fact, from the beginning, I've been trying to remind people that what we find easy now may not be considered easy in the eyes of neophyte or unskilled players.

[Mgamerz]

Don't worry. If you're on Xbox, a missile glitcher will apparently complete the match for you.

[Strict31]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

Something I find curious is the way people have a certain fondness for looking back at how they struggled when they started yet want to give new players cardboard enemies to fight and rob them of being able to laugh later about finding Bronze hard.

Which has exactly no bearing on anything we've discussed here. Proposing and attacking an unconnected point rather than discussing the issue at hand is a bit of logical fallacy.

I don't know, he/she appears to have completely made up random things I said in his/her own mind.

The first sentence was a statement of fact to explain my reasoning for the second, nothing more.

Again, if you doubt what someone has said,  you are calling into question whether or not they are being truthful. I can grant that this was not your intent, perhaps. But rather than clarifying your intent, you reiterated it in almost exactly the same terms. No one has made up anything from what you've said. And claiming this repeatedly does not suddenly make it do.

However, making Bronze easier certainly isn't going to help that problem as the jump is going to be even more significant.

Not everyone in this thread is talking about making Bronze easier. In fact, the OP seems to be warning of the dangers of making it harder than it already is, not making it easier.

[twiffer]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

However, making Bronze easier certainly isn't going to help that problem as the jump is going to be even more significant.

Interesting interpretation on the OP.  I didn't read it that way at all.  I don't read the OP to mean "make bronze easier" bur rather "stop making bronze harder."  There is a significant difference.

You cut your teeth on an easier bronze than someone who begins playing today.

[ParthianShotX]

Mgamerz wrote...

Don't worry. If you're on Xbox, a missile glitcher will apparently complete the match for you.

Not helpful.

[TehMerc]

twiffer wrote...

Interesting interpretation on the OP.  I didn't read it that way at all.  I don't read the OP to mean "make bronze easier" bur rather "stop making bronze harder."  There is a significant difference.

You cut your teeth on an easier bronze than someone who begins playing today.

This is all well and good if you don't take into account the class and weapon buffs that have come into play since the start as well.

In theory it should be evened out or even in favor of players with the minor touch ups bronze gets compared to all the power and weapon buffs there's been.

People shouldn't look at it in a vacuum if they want to talk about it being more hard.

Just wish they'd fix certain annoying units like banshee insta grabs and missle spam from rocket toopers, help out on all levels of play.