54 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Recent Bioware games seem to have made a point of making sure that as long as you keep playing and don't all die in combat, you'll reach the end of the game and "win".

Should this be so, or should there be occasions when you can pick the wrong choice and get a "game over" - like letting yourself get possessed by demons, or pissing off the King and getting executed or something. 

Or indeed an occasion when your PC can effectively say "no, I don't want to be the hero of this story" and just leave.

[AkiKishi]

It's pretty common to JRPG's but PST is the only example I can think of where you had some alternate outs that were valid ends to the story.
Witcher2 has them, but those are more like "You screwed up" scenes , like the one with Iorveth. 

 

My favourite from Atelier Totori.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:15 .

[wsandista]

I could go for a "Failure" GO.

Modifié par wsandista, 04 juillet 2012 - 01:52 .

[Dutchess]

They had one in DAO. If you got killed by ser Cauthrien and her guards, you woke up in prison instead of getting another chance. Something similar was done in ME2 Arrival dlc.

It would be fun if the team found another way to implement this. It's a nice surprise and a change of pace when you don't get the expected "critical mission failure" or "your journey ends here".

[Cultist]

And here again we get back to Witcher 2...

[ashwind]

renjility wrote...

They had one in DAO. If you got killed by ser Cauthrien and her guards, you woke up in prison instead of getting another chance. Something similar was done in ME2 Arrival dlc.

It would be fun if the team found another way to implement this. It's a nice surprise and a change of pace when you don't get the expected "critical mission failure" or "your journey ends here".

 Ser Cauthrien - oh man! I reloaded when I knew I was in trouble and used everything up to beat her only to learn much later that it is actually better to lose to her because otherwise you cant experience the hilarious rescue scenes.

Modifié par ashwind, 04 juillet 2012 - 02:55 .

[ashwind]

Cultist wrote...

And here again we get back to Witcher 2...

 You cant blame us - DA2 tried to be more like ME and umm... it failed. TW2 on the other hand is ME in a medieval fantasy setting done nearly perfect.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

If you want to play a game where you could lose, start your own business. If you want to play an RPG to have relax, why should you lose? It's your game. At any point you can turn the game off and say, "Ok, Hawke became a transgendered stripper after that. Game over!"

Maybe Europa Universalis or Total War games are more your thing. A couple of my favorite Total War games have been games that I haven't won in the allowed time limit, but the fun came from reversing the disaster of sailing all of my armies into a hurricane or such.

[Sir JK]

While I see the benefit atmosphere wise, it'd be great to be able to accept a deal with a demon and lose, I also see the benefit. These sort of things are generally way too easy to accidentally stumble upon. One misstep and boom... it's all over.

For instance. having opponents that are impossible to kill (or who kill you in cutscenes) is counterintuitive since all other fights are doable. There's no logical reason to back down from those fights when you never do otherwise. Now if combat as a whole is so dangerous that it's generally a good idea to stay out of them? Then it's another matter.

While nice setting-wise, these sort of things are best used sparingly. One cannot be allowed to choose them unintentionally.

[haroldhardluck]

Wulfram wrote...
Recent Bioware games seem to have made a point of making sure that as long as you keep playing and don't all die in combat, you'll reach the end of the game and "win".
Should this be so, or should there be occasions when you can pick the wrong choice and get a "game over" - like letting yourself get possessed by demons, or pissing off the King and getting executed or something. 
Or indeed an occasion when your PC can effectively say "no, I don't want to be the hero of this story" and just leave.

If you want to "just leave" you can do that with any game by simply stop playing and removing the game from your system.

If you want to die repeatedly then play an arcade game or an adventure game. In those games this is suppose to happen. RPGs are story base games and stories where the hero dies repeatedly do not sell well. I am aware of only one RPG game where the goal is to lose and that was a game based on the Cthulhu myhtos where the ultimate goal is to go insane. It was not a popular game except among a few horror fans.

What you are asking for is for Bioware to stop writing RPGs and write adventure games instead. That is a different genre and a different market altogether.

Harold

[Wulfram]

I'm not saying they should be ubiquitous or even frequent. Just that there could be 2 or 3 occasions during the game where rather than railroading the player into the "right" choice, they be given the freedom to pick something else.

In the case of the "just leave" option, it's true that you can replicate this by just quitting. But I think it would add something to make this an actual explicit option, because it creates an opportunity for your character to actively choose to continue - to fight for Fereldan not because they were forced to but because they wanted to. While it wouldn't require more than a couple of dialogue options and maybe a splash screen.

[Allan Schumacher]

renjility wrote...

They had one in DAO. If you got killed by ser Cauthrien and her guards, you woke up in prison instead of getting another chance. Something similar was done in ME2 Arrival dlc.

It would be fun if the team found another way to implement this. It's a nice surprise and a change of pace when you don't get the expected "critical mission failure" or "your journey ends here".

I didn't mind that part either, but it needs to somehow be communicated with the player better.

A lot of players reload when the end is imminent, meaning they would reload their game before they were completely defeated.  As a result they found the sequence a ridiculous chore and then were ultimately frustrated when they found out that they were effectively "supposed to lose."

[esper]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

renjility wrote...

They had one in DAO. If you got killed by ser Cauthrien and her guards, you woke up in prison instead of getting another chance. Something similar was done in ME2 Arrival dlc.

It would be fun if the team found another way to implement this. It's a nice surprise and a change of pace when you don't get the expected "critical mission failure" or "your journey ends here".

I didn't mind that part either, but it needs to somehow be communicated with the player better.

A lot of players reload when the end is imminent, meaning they would reload their game before they were completely defeated.  As a result they found the sequence a ridiculous chore and then were ultimately frustrated when they found out that they were effectively "supposed to lose."

Really, people play like that, I would never have known. The only 'battles'  I ever do that in is in game like fire emblem where there are perma deaths, else I fight to the last little hp.

I think I wouldn't mind a non-standard game over or two, but no more than that because else it would become trite and just feel like an provokating way of railroding the characther. (If you don't pick the 'right' choice you die.)

[Realmzmaster]

Nizaris1 wrote...

I am not sure if you are not a mage/templar, and don't have mage party member, you can survive the apostate blood mage prostitute in DA2, i never try and never see a video or posts about it.

In Oblivion, if you get caught doing crimes, guards will come to capture you, if you resist it is a death sentence, because you simply cannot survive the guards (they are always 10 level from your level)

In most games, the main character may die falling from cliffs, or smashed by some trap, or drowning, or accidents...but there is no such thing in DA

Hawke can survive the blood mage prostitute. There is a choice where Hawke can snap herself /hinself out of the mind control.  If there is a mage companion that companion can interrupt the spell and gain friendship points.

Earlier cRPGs like BG if the main character died it was game over. The BG cutscene of watching the main character's hand turn into a skeletal hand was cool. BG allowed for party member death. The only way the party member could return was through a resurrection spell. NWN was one of the games that started automatically resurrecting the henchmen. If the henchmen died in combat, the henchman would resurrect at the temple. The game still ended with the PC death. 

DAO took it a step further the game only ends if the entire party dies otherwise the individual companion is merely knock unconcious and regains conciousness after the battle or a spirit healer revives the companion, but health and mana regenerate slowly and/or injuries are present. Healing/mana potions and injury kits have to be used to recover to full strength.

DA2 went even further giving instant regeneration of health and mana/stamina after battle with only injury kits to fix injuries. Health and mana/stamina are still useful during combat but unnecessary after combat.

It would have been interesting in DAO if the PC was allowed to say No to Duncan. The human noble would be seen defending his mother and father to the death against Howe's men. The Dwarf noble would be seen fighting darkspawn in the Deep Roads until the end. The mage character being condemned by the templars to being tranquil or death. The dalish elf slowing dying from the corruption. The city elf carted off to prison or killed trying to escape. The dwarf commoner dying in a cell because he/she stop eating.

Seeing warden trying to reach the other wardens only to be cut down or captured by Loghain's army.

In DA2 it would have been interesting to see Hawke trying to defend Lothering against the horde instead of simply fleeing. Hawke would send his mother off with a friend as the siblings fought for thier home only to succumb and Bethany taken to become a broodmother.. 

[Wulfram]

Thinking about it, any non standard game overs in DA2 would have had to end with Cassandra saying "bull****"

[Realmzmaster]

Wulfram wrote...

Thinking about it, any non standard game overs in DA2 would have had to end with Cassandra saying "bull****"

[LolaLei]

Wulfram wrote...

Thinking about it, any non standard game overs in DA2 would have had to end with Cassandra saying "bull****"

LOL! That would have been hilarious!

[EricHVela]

Wulfram wrote...

Thinking about it, any non standard game overs in DA2 would have had to end with Cassandra saying "bull****"

+Awesome.

[lx_theo]

It must have at least an autosave before any given time this could happen.

[nightscrawl]

Wulfram wrote...

Recent Bioware games seem to have made a point of making sure that as long as you keep playing and don't all die in combat, you'll reach the end of the game and "win".

Should this be so, or should there be occasions when you can pick the wrong choice and get a "game over" - like letting yourself get possessed by demons, or pissing off the King and getting executed or something. 

Or indeed an occasion when your PC can effectively say "no, I don't want to be the hero of this story" and just leave.

I don't quite understand. What should the game do instead? And also, what is the difference between your character making that decision in the game and you just uninstalling it in real life? If you don't want to play it anymore, "don't want to be the hero of this story," why can't you just turn it off?

Are you looking for some sort of doomsday cinematic? Like say if you wiped on the Archdemon fight you see a cinematic of the Blight destroying everything. "Here is the real consequence of your failure" as it were.

[deuce985]

Bioware still does this. I think most people can see it coming though. I'd like to see more "surprise" choices.

One current game that comes right to mind is Witcher 2. I like pissing the Flotsam guards off and refusing, only to be met by a hail of arrows in my chest. Same thing in the interrogation scene. ****** Roche off and you dead haha.

I always laugh when I see this scene. You're pretty foolish if you can't see it coming though.

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par deuce985, 05 juillet 2012 - 06:26 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Wulfram wrote...

Or indeed an occasion when your PC can effectively say "no, I don't want to be the hero of this story" and just leave.

This is one of the possible endings on Dragon's Dogma. The hero can decide to fight the Big Bad...or go back home and relax on the beach. Both are equally valid options.

[AkiKishi]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

renjility wrote...

They had one in DAO. If you got killed by ser Cauthrien and her guards, you woke up in prison instead of getting another chance. Something similar was done in ME2 Arrival dlc.

It would be fun if the team found another way to implement this. It's a nice surprise and a change of pace when you don't get the expected "critical mission failure" or "your journey ends here".

I didn't mind that part either, but it needs to somehow be communicated with the player better.

A lot of players reload when the end is imminent, meaning they would reload their game before they were completely defeated.  As a result they found the sequence a ridiculous chore and then were ultimately frustrated when they found out that they were effectively "supposed to lose."

Yeah I hate scripted loss like that. Legai 2 did it, I ended up wasting tons of potions and extras trying to beat something that could not be beaten. All I did was draw the fight out and waste time.
Reading that post was the first I heard about it in DA though, so either I won. Or it was an optional fight I never saw.

[Dutchess]

^It's the first fight with ser Cauthrien, and it's definitely not optional. You get it near the end of the "Rescue the Queen" quest. And it's not a battle that is impossible to win. It's just very tough. So I guess you did win it.

Allan Schumacher wrote....

I didn't mind that part either, but it needs to somehow be communicated with the player better.

A lot of players reload when the end is imminent, meaning they would reload their game before they were completely defeated. As a result they found the sequence a ridiculous chore and then were ultimately frustrated when they found out that they were effectively "supposed to lose."

Hmm, I'm not sure how you can easily communicate this to the player. After all it will not occur often and it's more or less supposed to be a surprise. The only thing I can think of is a message in the loading screens: "when a battle is not going well, don't reload immediately. You might be surprised..." or something like that.