92 réponses à ce sujet

[DrakhanValane]

You can listen to a CD more than once and watch a movie more than once, so it's valid. Seriously, video games are MUCH greater value than most CDs and movies, but the RPG gaming populace is too spoiled to see it. BioWare screwed up with Baldur's Gate and they did it again with Dragon Age. They're taking a loss to provide the game and now it's the measuring stick.

Modifié par DrakhanValane, 16 décembre 2009 - 03:33 .

[Jonfon_ire]

Original182 wrote...

DrakhanValane wrote...

So I assume that none of the hour per unit of currency folks will ever pay for a CD or a song off iTunes. $10-$15 for 45 minutes or $1 for 3-5 minutes is ridiculous!

You forgot to compare it to a cup of coffee or a movie that you'll never watch again.

Again, comparing a DLC to the things you mentioned can be like comparing apples to oranges. I used the best measuring stick, the main game itself. If $50 of the main game = 80 hours, then a $5 DLC = 8 hours.

In that case every other computer game you've ever bought must be terrible value. I mean Arkham Asylum floats around the 10 hour mark. Modern Warfare 2 singleplayer is around 6.

I'm not particularly impressed with the lengths of the two DLCs either mind. I'm waiting for something meatier. I don't care particularly about the price, I just want a decent chunk of new content in it.

[Skydiver8888]

hehe Jonfon, i was JUST about to mention MW2 and Batman AA. Over 2 million people paid 60 bucks for their copy of MW2, to get a campaign that was 6 hours long and repetitive multiplayer. At that going rate, Warden's Keep should be TEN bucks, not 5.



I hate to inform you all of this, but microtransactions and RMS are the way of the future in the game industry. Even the largest MMOs are heading that way. I know that's cold consolation to the folks crying about how Bioware-produced extra content isn't worth $5, but it's the truth.

[Adria Teksuni]

Original182 wrote...

Adria Teksuni wrote...

And I'm not quite sure why length of play = absolute value.

It is a very important value. Would Dragon Age be the epic game that it is, if it took only 10 hours to complete fully instead of 80 hours? 80 hours of quality gaming > 10 hours of quality gaming, no matter how you see it.

I get that it's part of the value, but not that it's the absolute value.  Personally, I find the inclusion of the many times mentioned lore, opportunity for character development, etc. to all be part of the equation.

Not saying people who don't want to buy the DLC are right or wrong, just that I disagree.  *shrug*

[RobotXYZ]

DLC is a response to the economics of setting a price...

If carrots have a price set at 1 dollar 100 people will buy them
If carrots have a price set at 2 dollars 25 people will buy them

So the company sets it at 1 dollar and makes 100 dollars revenue....

But they would prefer that 75 people bought the carrots for 1 dollar and 25 bought it for 2 giving 125 dollars revenue... The problem is you may only have one price.  DLC is a way to sell at a higher price to the people who have a higher demand (willing to pay a higher price).

Its simple economics.

And saying that I SHOULDN'T purchase DLC because it is going to hurt the price of the game/content ratio is like saying I shouldn't buy an expensive bottle of wine because if less people paid then the price would go down.  Its none of your god damn business what I buy and I am not responsible for how it affects you, sorry.

Modifié par RobotXYZ, 16 décembre 2009 - 08:01 .

[Axterix]

Original182 wrote...

Again, comparing a DLC to the things you mentioned can be like comparing apples to oranges. I used the best measuring stick, the main game itself. If $50 of the main game = 80 hours, then a $5 DLC = 8 hours.

But the main game isn't 80 hours.  Took me 52 and that's with both bits of initial DLC.  And I bought the collector's edition, so my price was a bit higher

That said, I don't expect a direct connection between the game and dlc/expansion costs.  Most games come with a decent chunk of content.  An expansion, which usually costs around $20, will add about 15-20 hours of play time.  Call it a volume discount, if you will.  You get a better deal buying a large chunk of content rather than a small one.  Lot of that has to do with fixed costs involved, no doubt, as well as looking for at least X dollars profit, rather than a percentage.

Anyway, for $5, I'd be happy with about 3 hours of playtime.

My problem with things that only offer an hour or less of playtime is that it isn't enough incentive to really return to the game.  It is pretty much over after you turn it on.

It is for this reason that I stopped playing Dragon Age when the new bit of DLC was announced.  I've finished the game, but am working on other play throughs.  I've stopped those additional playthroughs, because, with the new DLC as part of the story, I'll use it on each play through, get some value out of it.  But if I'd continued to play, I'd have finished off another play through or more and the incentive to play just that short bit of new DLC would be considerably less.  And to play it on multiple playthroughs, so I feel I get my $5 worth, would be even less.

So, anyway, for DLC, I want something that adds a little story of its own, with enough length and options.  I want a mini-expansion, basically.  Not something that takes 1/2 to 1 hour to play through.  Something with a bit more depth.

[Axterix]

Tassiaw wrote...

Yes, but given that you haven't actually played Return to Ostagar, how can you form a valid opinion of it? How can you know how long it actually is, or how much content is in it? You're welcome to boycott all future BioWare DLC, and you can curse to the Heavens as much as you like, but people are still going to buy the DLC. Micro-transactions aren't going anywhere, it's an incredibly lucrative business model.

How long it takes we have from the mouth of a Bioware employee.  Speed run of 15-20 minutes.  Expects a typical first time player to take about an hour.

I'm sure they'll endeavour to add more content in their DLC packs from now on, they do actually listen to their fans even though you might not think so. Case in point: Mass Effect elevators. People ****ed and ****ed about how they were unnecessary and stupid, and now we'll have your standard loading screens in ME2. Personally, i liked the elevators, but the vocal forum trolls got through to the developers. Such will be the case with the general displeasure regarding DA:O's short DLC.

I didn't mind the elevators too much, with one exception.  The one in the Normandy.  Hated that one, for two reasons.  First, I wasn't really going to a different area as far as I was concerned, I was still in the ship, just wanted to chat up some people.  And second, because the ship isn't the size of the citadel, the elevator couldn't move at a decent rate.  It crawled.  And that just served to break suspension of disbelief.

But I can understand why people didn't like them.  A more traditional loading screen system would probably have taken half the time or less.

[T-Kay]

Axterix wrote...

Tassiaw wrote...

Yes, but given that you haven't actually played Return to Ostagar, how can you form a valid opinion of it? How can you know how long it actually is, or how much content is in it? You're welcome to boycott all future BioWare DLC, and you can curse to the Heavens as much as you like, but people are still going to buy the DLC. Micro-transactions aren't going anywhere, it's an incredibly lucrative business model.

How long it takes we have from the mouth of a Bioware employee.  Speed run of 15-20 minutes.  Expects a typical first time player to take about an hour.

I'm sure they'll endeavour to add more content in their DLC packs from now on, they do actually listen to their fans even though you might not think so. Case in point: Mass Effect elevators. People ****ed and ****ed about how they were unnecessary and stupid, and now we'll have your standard loading screens in ME2. Personally, i liked the elevators, but the vocal forum trolls got through to the developers. Such will be the case with the general displeasure regarding DA:O's short DLC.

I didn't mind the elevators too much, with one exception.  The one in the Normandy.  Hated that one, for two reasons.  First, I wasn't really going to a different area as far as I was concerned, I was still in the ship, just wanted to chat up some people.  And second, because the ship isn't the size of the citadel, the elevator couldn't move at a decent rate.  It crawled.  And that just served to break suspension of disbelief.

But I can understand why people didn't like them.  A more traditional loading screen system would probably have taken half the time or less.

If ME2's loading screens take as long as DA's I'll be sure to plan out my toilet and coffee breaks. I wanted the elevator screens to stick. It's a brilliant way to fix those lame loading screens.

[houdinimachine]

I've played this game far more than any other... it's really quite embarrassing Nearly 4 full playthroughs now.

[Krigwin]

LynxAQ wrote...

At Krigwin....

So let me
see if I got this straight: You accuse me of making fallacious attacks
on my opposition when I wasn't even directing my post at anyone, and
then continue on to completely ignore all of my points and resort to
making unprovable ad hominem attacks to undermine my position as your
closing argument.Okay then.

Skydiver8888 wrote...

hehe Jonfon, i was JUST about to mention MW2 and Batman AA. Over 2 million people paid 60 bucks for their copy of MW2, to get a campaign that was 6 hours long and repetitive multiplayer. At that going rate, Warden's Keep should be TEN bucks, not 5.

MW2 has unlimited hours of playtime in multiplayer. I know people who have crossed the 400 hour mark already. Whether or not it's repetitive or boring is a matter of opinion. I don't agree with Infinity Ward's business practices either, and I despise how they gutted MW2 for PC, but this is a faulty argument. MW2's multiplayer has infinite replay value, Warden's Keep has practically zero.

I hate to inform you all of this, but microtransactions and RMS are the way of the future in the game industry. Even the largest MMOs are heading that way. I know that's cold consolation to the folks crying about how Bioware-produced extra content isn't worth $5, but it's the truth.

Oh I know, just like how a lower quality of video games in general, a shortage of single-player games, and a reliance on recyclable multiplayer content are the way of the future in the game industry as well. I just find it baffling people can complain about other things, and not have any problem with DLC, when DLC hurts the industry as much as any practice out there.

As long as these business practices are allowed to continue the quality of video games as a whole will decline. For the selfish "it's my money" crowd, I guess this won't be a problem since they'll just continue paying more and more money for less and less value as the years go on, but for the rest of us that actually care about video games, we'll have to look for other hobbies. Or pirate.

[MorseDenizen]

@T-Kay was reading your posts with a lot of interest, you make a very good argument i think, I dont completely agree and I havent bought any of the DLC (WK, upcoming return to Ostagar etc) but I will say I am considering it, not because "DLC=good milk me like a cow", but because I will play the game again at some point, and when I do it will be a different class, race and origin, to have a different experience, it will also be in the future, when the hi rez textures are released possibly some new dlc and patches and when I've gotten over the first playthrough so it feels fresh. Sadly I have a pretty decent memory, so the Dlc will probably be a nice change of pace, also hoping that the DLC may be released on hard copy bundle or somesuch so it feels more like an expansion (a la nwn1 & 2). I cant actually find fault on your pov except about the fan boy stuff, delving into the lore of this game is an experience in itself and a lot of non fanboys would be inrtigued by it. And now for my secret sin.... Living in greece, I was pretty lucky to get my hands on Dragon Age for 32 euro Plaisio Computers put it on sale for their 40 year anniversary, needless to say I was chuffed, now 7usd for WK & 5usd (i think) doe RtO about 10euro give or take? So if i do get them, I'll have spent the same amount as the game cost on release date at the same shop, this is where your argument fails for me, I have so far gotten a bargain and the dlc purchase will put it in the original price range with extension to adventurous frolicks in the future, i have to say self discipline helped a lot against impulse in this case but i reckon come what may this game will have me coming back for more for a long time . I know this may peeve some people not intentional tho, I really wish the game had been a little longer here and there, and maybe the dlc can provide that asides the extra chest and some relatively good items. Just my food for thought here...

[Axterix]

T-Kay wrote...

If ME2's loading screens take as long as DA's I'll be sure to plan out my toilet and coffee breaks. I wanted the elevator screens to stick. It's a brilliant way to fix those lame loading screens.

Well, playing both on the X-box, pretty sure DA's are shorter than ME's.

But, yeah, I didn't mind the elevator rides, even kind of liked them, well, other than the Normandy one, of course.  I liked listening to the little news blurbs and the characters chatting with each other.  Just too bad the chatting wasn't a bit longer, so as to better cover the time.

As it is, in DA, I'll stop and let characters finish chatting before I move on, so combining that with load times (in ME) worked well.

[IGedit]

Original182 wrote...

I already gave my reasonings for why a $5 DLC that lasts only 1 hour is a rip off. There's no need to compare it to anything else. Let's use the best measuring stick; the main game itself.

Dragon Age, $50, takes 80 hours to complete without replays.
A $5 DLC therefore should take 8 hours to complete without replays.

I've also tried the reverse argument. If it is acceptable to pay $5 that only gives you 1 hour, how would you feel if a $50 Dragon Age only took 10 hours to finish? Wouldn't you feel ripped off?

I think your argument is flawed.

There are alot of video games out there that cost $50 (or more) that only take 10 hours to complete. If people enjoyed the game, they may not think they were "ripped off". That is their decision, not yours.

Think of it this way: You would be paying $55 for 81 hours of gaming. That is an incredible value, imho.

[Original182]

IGedit wrote...
I think your argument is flawed.

There are alot of video games out there that cost $50 (or more) that only take 10 hours to complete. If people enjoyed the game, they may not think they were "ripped off". That is their decision, not yours.

If Dragon Age took only 10 hours to complete, would it be the epic game that it is now?

Other games have different replay values. First person shooters rely on multiplayer to give them hundreds and hundreds of hours. Strategy games have custom maps that lets them continue playing after finishing the main campaign.

An RPG like Dragon Age has neither multiplayer nor custom maps, so obviously it has different benchmarks on what makes it worth it. Length of game is one.

Think of it this way: You would be paying $55 for 81 hours of gaming. That is an incredible value, imho.

That's an even worse argument than mine. That's like saying they can skimp and slack on future expansions as well because their main game was great. Oblivion Shivering Isles expansion lasted people about 40 hours. Creating DLCs or expansions that are worth the price tag is not an alien concept.

Someone suggested a better argument on why DLCs are expensive. It has to do with buying in bulk. If you buy 1 hour, it'll cost $5. If you buy 10 hours, maybe it'll cost less like $25.

Alright, I can accept that business model. In future, I hope they will bundle all DLCs and give a lower cost due to buying in bulk.

[Ariella]

You buy DLC for the same reason you'd buy an anthology that had a story based in a favorite novel series.... You want to know what happens next. Simple as that. And the DLC is less than your average anthology novel (four bucks vs. 6-12 depending) and is all Dragon Age, which is not a guarantee in many anthologies.

[JaegerBane]

T-Kay wrote...

LynxAQ wrote...

This seems like a cleverly written "DLC's should be free" thread. I like the DLC idea and I am willing to pay £5 for an extra hour of entertainment.

My only thing against the DLC thing, is they not releasing them fast enough.

It's because of fruitcakes like you that this entire DLC rippoff thing works. An hour of extra entertainment for 5 pounds dollars euros whatever?? Are you even reading what you just posted? An hour is not worth 5 of any western currency! If this game has 50 hours of gameplay that would mean you're willing to pay 250 pounds for this game!

DLC's are overpriced and a cheap way to milk more money out of an incomplete product by luring in fanboys.

I do have to admit that these weird 'dollar-per-hour' arguments are rather hilarious to read.  If I used that kind of logic in all of my purchases I'd be living in a ditch eating nothing but bread and water.

There comes a point when trying to extrapolate the argument into something that fits your viewpoint becomes so transparent you end up walking into it. He hasn't spent £250 on a 50 hour game. He's spent £30 on the game, just like everyone else, and judges the extra £5 to be worthwhile. Personally I considered the £4.76 I spent to be a fair price, because I didn't sit wired up to my computer methodically counting the number of seconds I spent on it and trying to figure out how to extend this whole nonsense into the rest of the game to cover what I may use DLC gear for. I just played it and enjoyed it.

Whether you agree with his judgement or not is irrelevant, as you have no say over what he spends his cash on. And screaming rubbish about £250 games isn't exactly the kind of behaviour I'd expect from someone who considers themselves fit to call others 'fruitcakes'.

[Kyrgsh]

T-Kay wrote...

LynxAQ wrote...

This seems like a cleverly written "DLC's should be free" thread. I like the DLC idea and I am willing to pay £5 for an extra hour of entertainment.

My only thing against the DLC thing, is they not releasing them fast enough.

It's because of fruitcakes like you that this entire DLC rippoff thing works. An hour of extra entertainment for 5 pounds dollars euros whatever?? Are you even reading what you just posted? An hour is not worth 5 of any western currency! If this game has 50 hours of gameplay that would mean you're willing to pay 250 pounds for this game!

DLC's are overpriced and a cheap way to milk more money out of an incomplete product by luring in fanboys.

With respect, an hour of my time is worth a lot more than five currency units, both at work and at play. If DLC can entertain me for that amount of time, I'm very happy to pay that amount of money. The fact that my $60 has gotten me and my GF over 100 hours of gaming already- with dozens more to go at least- is an incredible bargain.

Modifié par Kyrgsh, 18 décembre 2009 - 02:41 .