338 réponses à ce sujet

[Ruilus]

BrookerT wrote...

He threw down his gun when charging to Shepard. What Kind of villain THROWS AWAY THERE WEAPON when there enemey who they just tried to kill is defenslesss. Hell, if you go save the Salarian team, He holds him over an effing cliff

Im mean seriously watch the begining of this clip 
 

There's actually a perfectly good explanation for that which I just made up. See, Saren tossed his weapon because he saw the opportunity to finish Shepard with his bare hands, and everyone knows killing people that way is much more cathartic and rewarding overall. He then dangled Shepard in the air overlong because he got caught up in the moment, relishing the sight of that troublemaker squirming in his grasp, completely at his mercy. Common mistake.

Modifié par Ruilus, 05 juillet 2012 - 08:25 .

[BrookerT]

Ruilus wrote...

BrookerT wrote...

He threw down his gun when charging to Shepard. What Kind of villain THROWS AWAY THERE WEAPON when there enemey who they just tried to kill is defenslesss. Hell, if you go save the Salarian team, He holds him over an effing cliff

Im mean seriously watch the begining of this clip 
 

There's actually a perfectly good explanation for that which I just made up. See, Saren tossed his weapon because he saw the opportunity to finish Shepard with his bare hands, and everyone knows killing people that way is much more cathartic and rewarding overall. He then dangled Shepard in the air overlong because he got caught up in the moment, relishing the sight of that troublemaker squirming in his grasp, completely at his mercy. Common mistake.

And there is also a perfectly good reason for why Harbinger didn't fire at the normandy. But ya know, James Bond Syndrome all the way

[hangmans tree]

Harbinger was changing his thermal clip.

[CDRSkyShepard]

iAFKinMassEffect3 wrote...
So it doesn't land on planets with more pressure than Earth and it doesn't land on planets with less pressure aside from a few to further the plot.
I smell a plot hole.

Pressure has nothing to do with it. Mass of the planet and its gravitational pull does. Also, Earth's mass has nothing to do with it: the Normandy can land on Illium, which is more massive than Earth, but I'm sure a planet does get to a size where its mass and gravitational pull are too much for the ship. This limit has never been specified in-universe.

By the way, before you try to correct me on the science, know that I do this stuff for a living. I'd recommend brushing up on orbital mechanics.

[Apollo-XL5]

clos wrote...

Nothing like a scene in the game that totally contradicts the character of your squad members: "Hey, I know you have been there every step of the way, but in the most important moment of the galaxy, I'm gonna do this on my own. Here is the Normandy, off you guys go. Peace."

It totally betrayed Shepard as a leader and his confidence upon his squad. It was pathetic and thematically revolting.

No it didn't, his team mates had been caught in explosion and were no longer capable of helping him.  So he had them evacuate.  Now that is a good leader.   If he let them carry on then they would surely of died for nothing.

Modifié par Apollo-XL5, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:30 .

[CronoDragoon]

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

clos wrote...

Nothing like a scene in the game that totally contradicts the character of your squad members: "Hey, I know you have been there every step of the way, but in the most important moment of the galaxy, I'm gonna do this on my own. Here is the Normandy, off you guys go. Peace."

It totally betrayed Shepard as a leader and his confidence upon his squad. It was pathetic and thematically revolting.

No it didn't, his team mates had been caught in explosion and were no longer capable of helping him.  So he had them evacuate.  Now that is a good leader.   If he let them carry on then they would surely of died for nothing.

Same line of thinking that leads people to believe the Normandy should have been circling around the Citadel in Reaper-infested space with an armed Crucible in the hope that Shepard would.....what? It's ridiculous.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:36 .

[Apollo-XL5]

About harbinger not attacking the Normandy I will use a quote from DS9

Weyoun : so many escape pods, so small so vulnerable, I will order their destruction immeadiatley.
Founder : no, let them return to the federation, those pods are filled with weakened, demoralised troops.
Weyoun : troops who will spread fear through the federation with tales of what happened here today, founder is wise.

I think that explains it.

[Octopus_DK]

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

clos wrote...

Nothing like a scene in the game that totally contradicts the character of your squad members: "Hey, I know you have been there every step of the way, but in the most important moment of the galaxy, I'm gonna do this on my own. Here is the Normandy, off you guys go. Peace."

It totally betrayed Shepard as a leader and his confidence upon his squad. It was pathetic and thematically revolting.

No it didn't, his team mates had been caught in explosion and were no longer capable of helping him.  So he had them evacuate.  Now that is a good leader.   If he let them carry on then they would surely of died for nothing.

Well I am pretty sure they weren't the only ones wounded, didn't see Shepard calling in a pickup for anyone else. Plus this is it, get to the damn beam! There will be no stepping back! I don't think this was good leadership, he let his feelings get in the way of saving the galaxy.

[Octopus_DK]

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

About harbinger not attacking the Normandy I will use a quote from DS9

Weyoun : so many escape pods, so small so vulnerable, I will order their destruction immeadiatley.
Founder : no, let them return to the federation, those pods are filled with weakened, demoralised troops.
Weyoun : troops who will spread fear through the federation with tales of what happened here today, founder is wise.

I think that explains it.

Normandy, one of the symbols of galactic unity, destroyed in front of the troops would have worked better I think. Plus he doesn't shoot at all at some point, they kind of screwed up big on the plausibility here.

[CronoDragoon]

Octopus_DK wrote...
Well I am pretty sure they weren't the only ones wounded, didn't see Shepard calling in a pickup for anyone else. Plus this is it, get to the damn beam! There will be no stepping back! I don't think this was good leadership, he let his feelings get in the way of saving the galaxy.

The whole evac took less than 2 minutes.

Plus, if Shepard had just kept running and left his injured squadmates to die, people would have been even more pissed, whether it makes sense or not.

[macrocarl]

Harby's job at that point was to block any incoming folks heading towards the beam not blast people leaving. If you listen to the Catalyst about Reapers being like flames, you can infer they do their job and aren't wrathful. Harby was gunning against Shep in ME2 but that's because Harby's job at that time was to collect enough humans to make a new Reaper. So Shep was in direct conflict with Harby's mission. Plain and simple really.

[Octopus_DK]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Octopus_DK wrote...
Well I am pretty sure they weren't the only ones wounded, didn't see Shepard calling in a pickup for anyone else. Plus this is it, get to the damn beam! There will be no stepping back! I don't think this was good leadership, he let his feelings get in the way of saving the galaxy.

The whole evac took less than 2 minutes.

Plus, if Shepard had just kept running and left his injured squadmates to die, people would have been even more pissed, whether it makes sense or not.

The entire run takes less than 2 minutes if you remove the evac so that seems like a substantial waste of time. I'm not sure who you refer to that would be pissed. I mean what are they going to say? "you bastard went to save the galaxy while your friends were in need" I mean if one of the themes was supposed to be sacrifice then leaving them behind seems like the right thing to do.

[iAFKinMassEffect3]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

iAFKinMassEffect3 wrote...
So it doesn't land on planets with more pressure than Earth and it doesn't land on planets with less pressure aside from a few to further the plot.
I smell a plot hole.

Pressure has nothing to do with it. Mass of the planet and its gravitational pull does. Also, Earth's mass has nothing to do with it: the Normandy can land on Illium, which is more massive than Earth, but I'm sure a planet does get to a size where its mass and gravitational pull are too much for the ship. This limit has never been specified in-universe.

By the way, before you try to correct me on the science, know that I do this stuff for a living. I'd recommend brushing up on orbital mechanics.

That's not the point.
The point is it lands on planets with more and less when it should not to further the plot and then it doesn't on planets with similar levels.
I couldn't care which readings equal the landing ability, they go up and down and don't stay steady.
As you said you don't know the limit.

Modifié par iAFKinMassEffect3, 05 juillet 2012 - 04:57 .

[Apollo-XL5]

A captain's responsibilities are to his ship and crew, no one gets left behind to die and you don't throw your crew away to win the mission. The only time that kind of last heroic act of sacrificing yourself and your crew and shiP would only happen when there is no other choice.

I'm glad your no commander the way you are criticising shepards behaviour.

[Octopus_DK]

macrocarl wrote...

Harby's job at that point was to block any incoming folks heading towards the beam not blast people leaving. If you listen to the Catalyst about Reapers being like flames, you can infer they do their job and aren't wrathful. Harby was gunning against Shep in ME2 but that's because Harby's job at that time was to collect enough humans to make a new Reaper. So Shep was in direct conflict with Harby's mission. Plain and simple really.

Again shooting down the Normandy seems like it would have great symbolic value for demoralizing the enemy. That seems like something he should do no matter what. It all just seems very contrived. 

[Naugi]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

shepdog77 wrote...

He was trying to prevent people from getting to the beam, not the people trying to get away.

^This

People are trying too hard to hate this scene.

This.

[gmboy902]

KingJason13 wrote...

WTH did Harbinger stop firing long enough to let the Normandy fly in, park in front of him, let a tearful goodbye occur, NOT shoot the totally exposed enemy warship that has plagued him for 2 games, let them fly awkwardly away... and then resume firing at the ant-sized people on the ground!?

If someone is running at you with a knife, and someone else is behind him cheering him on, who are you going to shoot?

There were still a bunch of soldiers running for the beam. If even one of them made it, Harbinger knew that the war might be over.

[Octopus_DK]

Apollo-XL5 wrote...

A captain's responsibilities are to his ship and crew, no one gets left behind to die and you don't throw your crew away to win the mission. The only time that kind of last heroic act of sacrificing yourself and your crew and shiP would only happen when there is no other choice.

I'm glad your no commander the way you are criticising shepards behaviour.

Shepard is a fictional character which you control so I can't really criticize him as such. I'm pretty sure if you played a renegade you would not stop for it. Plus this IS a desperate situation if there ever was one. I think both Anderson and Hacket make that clear.

[Octopus_DK]

gmboy902 wrote...

KingJason13 wrote...

WTH did Harbinger stop firing long enough to let the Normandy fly in, park in front of him, let a tearful goodbye occur, NOT shoot the totally exposed enemy warship that has plagued him for 2 games, let them fly awkwardly away... and then resume firing at the ant-sized people on the ground!?

If someone is running at you with a knife, and someone else is behind him cheering him on, who are you going to shoot?

There were still a bunch of soldiers running for the beam. If even one of them made it, Harbinger knew that the war might be over.

He actually stops shooting while the Normandy is in front of him.

[macrocarl]

Octopus_DK wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

Harby's job at that point was to block any incoming folks heading towards the beam not blast people leaving. If you listen to the Catalyst about Reapers being like flames, you can infer they do their job and aren't wrathful. Harby was gunning against Shep in ME2 but that's because Harby's job at that time was to collect enough humans to make a new Reaper. So Shep was in direct conflict with Harby's mission. Plain and simple really.

Again shooting down the Normandy seems like it would have great symbolic value for demoralizing the enemy. That seems like something he should do no matter what. It all just seems very contrived. 

I'm just using what was offered to us in game to explain things. I thought Harby was missing an opportunity as well until the Catalyst said the thing abotu fire and then it made sense to me. Doesn't feel contrived to me at all.

[CronoDragoon]

Octopus_DK wrote...

The entire run takes less than 2 minutes if you remove the evac so that seems like a substantial waste of time. I'm not sure who you refer to that would be pissed. I mean what are they going to say? "you bastard went to save the galaxy while your friends were in need" I mean if one of the themes was supposed to be sacrifice then leaving them behind seems like the right thing to do.

1. Did you see all the threads about the Normandy rendezvousing with the fleet? "They would never abandon Shepard Gaaaar!" even though it makes no sense for them to stay. Like I said, people would have been pissed regardless of realism.

2. Harbinger doesn't leave the beam until everyone and everything has been decimated. Either your squad gets evac'd or they die. Since Shepard gets blasted in the original endings, too, the evac did not hurt his chances.

3. The beam scene was criticized for its callousness towards your squad. They get blasted and when Shepard wakes up there's no sign of them. Not only does the evac scene fix a plot hole, it adds character focus, which was something many people including me criticized the original endings for destroying.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 05 juillet 2012 - 05:07 .

[Octopus_DK]

macrocarl wrote...

Octopus_DK wrote...

Again shooting down the Normandy seems like it would have great symbolic value for demoralizing the enemy. That seems like something he should do no matter what. It all just seems very contrived. 

I'm just using what was offered to us in game to explain things. I thought Harby was missing an opportunity as well until the Catalyst said the thing abotu fire and then it made sense to me. Doesn't feel contrived to me at all.

Well that explanation would to me signify that he should shoot it because it furthers the goal he was created for. I guess we read the fire thing differently then, fire just does what it does because it is it's function and without any thought as to why. Not shooting the Normandy seem to go against its function, which is to eradicate advanced civilizations in this cycle. I mean he stops shooting which means that fire doesn't burn anymore if we go with the analogy.

[Octopus_DK]

CronoDragoon wrote...

1. Did you see all the threads about the Normandy rendezvousing with the fleet? "They would never abandon Shepard Gaaaar!" even though it makes no sense for them to stay. Like I said, people would have been pissed regardless of realism.

2. Harbinger doesn't leave the beam until everyone and everything has been decimated. Either your squad gets evac'd or they die. Since Shepard gets blasted in the original endings, too, the evac did not hurt his chances.

3. The beam scene was criticized for its callousness towards your squad. They get blasted and when Shepard wakes up there's no sign of them. Not only does the evac scene fix a plot hole, it adds character focus, which was something many people including me criticized the original endings for destroying.

1. not talking about that. It made sense to leave. That was actually okay.
2. Well he leaves before both Anderson and Shepard were done. The EC changed the run so now it hurts his chances. In the old one you could why they didn't evac Shepard as well then.
3. Agree that it closes a plot hole but it hopes a new one. I'm not arguing that I wasn't touched by the "moment" just saying that it doesn't make sense and it feels like an afterthought that they did not quite finish. Had they either worked more on it or not botch it the first time we might something that was touching and made sense. Now it feels forced IMO.

[CronoDragoon]

Octopus_DK wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

1. Did you see all the threads about the Normandy rendezvousing with the fleet? "They would never abandon Shepard Gaaaar!" even though it makes no sense for them to stay. Like I said, people would have been pissed regardless of realism.

2. Harbinger doesn't leave the beam until everyone and everything has been decimated. Either your squad gets evac'd or they die. Since Shepard gets blasted in the original endings, too, the evac did not hurt his chances.

3. The beam scene was criticized for its callousness towards your squad. They get blasted and when Shepard wakes up there's no sign of them. Not only does the evac scene fix a plot hole, it adds character focus, which was something many people including me criticized the original endings for destroying.

1. not talking about that. It made sense to leave. That was actually okay.
2. Well he leaves before both Anderson and Shepard were done. The EC changed the run so now it hurts his chances. In the old one you could why they didn't evac Shepard as well then.
3. Agree that it closes a plot hole but it hopes a new one. I'm not arguing that I wasn't touched by the "moment" just saying that it doesn't make sense and it feels like an afterthought that they did not quite finish. Had they either worked more on it or not botch it the first time we might something that was touching and made sense. Now it feels forced IMO.

1. My point is that you are saying people would not have been pissed if Shepard left his crew behind to die. My point is that whether or not something "makes sense" isn't going to prevent people from behind pissed. The Normandy leaving is a perfect example of a scene that makes realistic military sense but was lambasted anyway because people didn't like the endings in general and wanted to find reasons to put down any part of them. I feel like this is the same way, though for the opposite reasons.

2. He leaves because Shepard is knocked out on the ground. Notice when Shepard wakes up he's already leaving. And Shepard doesn't get evac'd because he's fine; his crew was physically unable to conitnue.
3. It's not a plot hole. Unlikely sequence of events isn't a plot hole. It's a plot shield though.

As for your last point that is fair, I'm not going to tell you how your feelings are wrong. I would actually be interested to know how out of place it felt for people playing it for the FIRST time. It will feel out of place for us no matter what, obviously, knowing how it went down previously.

[macrocarl]

Octopus_DK wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

Octopus_DK wrote...

Again shooting down the Normandy seems like it would have great symbolic value for demoralizing the enemy. That seems like something he should do no matter what. It all just seems very contrived. 

I'm just using what was offered to us in game to explain things. I thought Harby was missing an opportunity as well until the Catalyst said the thing abotu fire and then it made sense to me. Doesn't feel contrived to me at all.

Well that explanation would to me signify that he should shoot it because it furthers the goal he was created for. I guess we read the fire thing differently then, fire just does what it does because it is it's function and without any thought as to why. Not shooting the Normandy seem to go against its function, which is to eradicate advanced civilizations in this cycle. I mean he stops shooting which means that fire doesn't burn anymore if we go with the analogy.

Well the Catalyst is controlling the Reapers and we see a scene where some Reapers break off from the attack to go defend then beam, so from that we can assume the Catalyst said 'Hey Harby, go play beam goalie.' And so since he just does his job like a good lil' fire he goes and burns all the folks that are heading to the beam. Not heading away. And then when he thinks everyone is Krispy Kreme he heads back out to laser face some more space ships. I think his laser face isn't supposed to be the 'fire' Mr. Spacekid was talking about. That silly!