DistantUtopia wrote...
babachewie wrote...
You're not trusitng the catalyst. your trusitng the endless cycles that built the crucible in the first place.
So...we should be blaming the previous cycles then for the poor endings we got?
Talking about Geth being rebuild obviously.babachewie wrote...
the quarians wiping out the geth isnt head canon. its canon if chosen. Then Destroy is alot easier to make.The Genophage wrote...
And to be fair, many people on this cycle went in stasis chambers and survived in the next cycle. See what I did there, I headcanonned.ghost9191 wrote...
babachewie wrote...
You know the ME Universe isn't against wiping out a species to suit the needs of the Galaxy. The Rachni were wiped out with the combined support of the galaxy. Even Mordin says tragic but had to be done.
and to be fair the geth can be rebuilt. and also the geth could've been wiped out by the quarians on rannoch, so if that happened you wouldn't be commiting genocide by choosing destroy because the quarians already did
The Genophage wrote...
No reason to not believe the catalyst, how about hes the enemy that was trying to kill you the past three games, how about maybe he wants you to choose something so everyone dies quicker so that their numbers aren't diminished at all, please don't give me that bull.Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Eain wrote...
Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Is what happens to the Geth in destroy a tragedy? Of course. But how is allowing the Geth to die morally worse than allowing ALL ADVANCED LIFE IN THE GALAXY to die?
It, quite simply, boils down to a numbers game. And the numbers clearly state that Destroy >>>>>>>>>>>>> Refuse.
Shepard would probably agree with your logic. But Shepard does not know that shooting the red tube blows up all the Reapers. She really doesn't. People who keep saying she does can only cite the Catalyst as reason, but Shepard has no reason to believe the Catalyst. Everything that Shepard has experienced hints at the fact that not using the Crucible is more likely to leave an opportunity open for destroying the Reapers later. That's what refusal is to her. Anything else is putting the fate of the galaxy in the hands of the Reaper Overlord and simply praying he's telling the truth, which is incredibly unlikely.
Shepard has no reason NOT to believe the Catalyst. The Catalyst has NO reason to lie. The Catalyst is WINNING. The Reapers are WINNING. This isn't a Bond movie where the villain has to kidnap Bond and explain his whole plan in order to try and trick or force Bond to sympathize with them in order to win.
This is Watchmen. This is Ozymandius saying "What am I, a Bond villain? I launched the attack ten minutes ago."
Shepard goes to the Crucible knowing that this is the ONE CHANCE they have to defeat the Reapers - use the Crucible. Knowing that if he does not, they will lose. Everything. It is repeatedly drilled into Shepard's head through the course of 2.5 games that you cannot. Stop. The. Reapers. Conventionally.
By refusing to believe the Catalyst, you are playing right into the hands of the Reapers.
Bull, When my Shep was talking to the Catalyst he said that He doesn't believe when the catalyst told him he can't be beat conventionally, so its not denial. Its the same Leap of faith.arial wrote...
it is stated in the game it take 4 dreadnoughts to down a Sovereign-class Reaper, and there are thousnads of Sovereign-class Reapers, as well as thousnads of Destroyers, and probably millions of Occuli(SP?). and there are no more then 120 Dreadnoughts in the GalaxyThe Genophage wrote...
Trusting in the Catalyst and believing you can beat them conventionally is the same leap of faith, so your saying I would go to jail for choosing an option when both when unlogical?arial wrote...
you would actually, because you knew there was no other way to stop themThe Genophage wrote...
When you refuse, your still fighting, if I were to try to stop the crime but failed, I wouldn't be held accountable now would I?arial wrote...
exactly, and as the law states, if you do not prevent the crime, you are just as guilty as those who commited itFather_Jerusalem wrote...
The Genophage wrote...
@Ghost9191.
No, you fail to understand the definition of Genocide, and keep accusing me of Genocide when I clearly explained the difference, therefore I'm done arguing with nonsense.
Definition of GENOCIDE[/i]: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
By choosing "refuse" you DELIBERATELY allow the cycle to continue while the Reapers systematicall destroy many many racial, political, or cultural groups.
You are a party to genocide by allowing the Reapers to continue Reaping instead of stopping them when you were given multiple options on how to do so.
Are you out there in a little Reaper ship helping them commit genocides? No, of course not. But you, and you alone, allowed them to continue on. Through your inaction, you are a party to it. Whether you like it or not.
Even giving every living Organic there own Frigate, we would not have the firepower to take out the Reapers conventionally
therefore conventional warfare is not a leap-of-faith, it is pure denial
Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Destroy was the original purpose of the Crucible. It tells you that there are now two new options, and tries to steer you towards those options, and specifically towards Synthesis. It does not WANT you to pick Destroy but short of disabling the Crucible completely and allowing the cycle to continue, it knows it cannot actively STOP you from picking it if that's what you want.
That's why the two other options are there - to try and get you to pick one of those instead of Destroy.
no, it is Denial,The Genophage wrote...
Bull, When my Shep was talking to the Catalyst he said that He doesn't believe when the catalyst told him he can't be beat conventionally, so its not denial. Its the same Leap of faith.arial wrote...
it is stated in the game it take 4 dreadnoughts to down a Sovereign-class Reaper, and there are thousnads of Sovereign-class Reapers, as well as thousnads of Destroyers, and probably millions of Occuli(SP?). and there are no more then 120 Dreadnoughts in the GalaxyThe Genophage wrote...
Trusting in the Catalyst and believing you can beat them conventionally is the same leap of faith, so your saying I would go to jail for choosing an option when both when unlogical?arial wrote...
you would actually, because you knew there was no other way to stop themThe Genophage wrote...
When you refuse, your still fighting, if I were to try to stop the crime but failed, I wouldn't be held accountable now would I?arial wrote...
exactly, and as the law states, if you do not prevent the crime, you are just as guilty as those who commited itFather_Jerusalem wrote...
The Genophage wrote...
@Ghost9191.
No, you fail to understand the definition of Genocide, and keep accusing me of Genocide when I clearly explained the difference, therefore I'm done arguing with nonsense.
Definition of GENOCIDE[/i]: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
By choosing "refuse" you DELIBERATELY allow the cycle to continue while the Reapers systematicall destroy many many racial, political, or cultural groups.
You are a party to genocide by allowing the Reapers to continue Reaping instead of stopping them when you were given multiple options on how to do so.
Are you out there in a little Reaper ship helping them commit genocides? No, of course not. But you, and you alone, allowed them to continue on. Through your inaction, you are a party to it. Whether you like it or not.
Even giving every living Organic there own Frigate, we would not have the firepower to take out the Reapers conventionally
therefore conventional warfare is not a leap-of-faith, it is pure denial
Ryzaki wrote...
DistantUtopia wrote...
babachewie wrote...
You're not trusitng the catalyst. your trusitng the endless cycles that built the crucible in the first place.
So...we should be blaming the previous cycles then for the poor endings we got?
Damned Protheans! *shakes fist*
The Genophage wrote...
Talking about Geth being rebuild obviously.babachewie wrote...
the quarians wiping out the geth isnt head canon. its canon if chosen. Then Destroy is alot easier to make.The Genophage wrote...
And to be fair, many people on this cycle went in stasis chambers and survived in the next cycle. See what I did there, I headcanonned.ghost9191 wrote...
babachewie wrote...
You know the ME Universe isn't against wiping out a species to suit the needs of the Galaxy. The Rachni were wiped out with the combined support of the galaxy. Even Mordin says tragic but had to be done.
and to be fair the geth can be rebuilt. and also the geth could've been wiped out by the quarians on rannoch, so if that happened you wouldn't be commiting genocide by choosing destroy because the quarians already did
My Shep told him, he believed he can beat him without the crucible, again, it came out his mouth, so now, in my point of view he didn't win. Stop assuming how other people view situations.Father_Jerusalem wrote...
The Genophage wrote...
No reason to not believe the catalyst, how about hes the enemy that was trying to kill you the past three games, how about maybe he wants you to choose something so everyone dies quicker so that their numbers aren't diminished at all, please don't give me that bull.Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Eain wrote...
Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Is what happens to the Geth in destroy a tragedy? Of course. But how is allowing the Geth to die morally worse than allowing ALL ADVANCED LIFE IN THE GALAXY to die?
It, quite simply, boils down to a numbers game. And the numbers clearly state that Destroy >>>>>>>>>>>>> Refuse.
Shepard would probably agree with your logic. But Shepard does not know that shooting the red tube blows up all the Reapers. She really doesn't. People who keep saying she does can only cite the Catalyst as reason, but Shepard has no reason to believe the Catalyst. Everything that Shepard has experienced hints at the fact that not using the Crucible is more likely to leave an opportunity open for destroying the Reapers later. That's what refusal is to her. Anything else is putting the fate of the galaxy in the hands of the Reaper Overlord and simply praying he's telling the truth, which is incredibly unlikely.
Shepard has no reason NOT to believe the Catalyst. The Catalyst has NO reason to lie. The Catalyst is WINNING. The Reapers are WINNING. This isn't a Bond movie where the villain has to kidnap Bond and explain his whole plan in order to try and trick or force Bond to sympathize with them in order to win.
This is Watchmen. This is Ozymandius saying "What am I, a Bond villain? I launched the attack ten minutes ago."
Shepard goes to the Crucible knowing that this is the ONE CHANCE they have to defeat the Reapers - use the Crucible. Knowing that if he does not, they will lose. Everything. It is repeatedly drilled into Shepard's head through the course of 2.5 games that you cannot. Stop. The. Reapers. Conventionally.
By refusing to believe the Catalyst, you are playing right into the hands of the Reapers.
He. Won. He's not "trying" to kill you. He WON. If you don't take a leap of faith, he's WON. Hell, if he doesn't bring you up to him, he's WON.
He recognizes that his solution is now flawed and is giving you the chance to END it. There is NO REASON for him to lie because he's WON.
The simple fact is that you can do FAR more damage to a person by telling them the truth than you can by lying, as evidence by everyone trying to say that the Starchild is a liar and that they would rather doom the galaxy to death than stop the Reapers.
Who cares if they didnt know what they were building. They knew it was from countless cycles determened to stop the reapers and that it would destroy them. Why else would they have made plans for it or attempted ot build it?You're whole argument is not trusting the catalyst when it in fact has nothing to do with what the crucible can do.The Genophage wrote...
The crucible was never finished, They didn't even know what they were building, maybe the first, first cycle knew.babachewie wrote...
You're not trusitng the catalyst. your trusitng the endless cycles that built the crucible in the first place.The Genophage wrote...
Trusting in the Catalyst and believing you can beat them conventionally is the same leap of faith, so your saying I would go to jail for choosing an option when both when unlogical?arial wrote...
you would actually, because you knew there was no other way to stop themThe Genophage wrote...
When you refuse, your still fighting, if I were to try to stop the crime but failed, I wouldn't be held accountable now would I?arial wrote...
exactly, and as the law states, if you do not prevent the crime, you are just as guilty as those who commited itFather_Jerusalem wrote...
The Genophage wrote...
@Ghost9191.
No, you fail to understand the definition of Genocide, and keep accusing me of Genocide when I clearly explained the difference, therefore I'm done arguing with nonsense.
Definition of GENOCIDE[/i]: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
By choosing "refuse" you DELIBERATELY allow the cycle to continue while the Reapers systematicall destroy many many racial, political, or cultural groups.
You are a party to genocide by allowing the Reapers to continue Reaping instead of stopping them when you were given multiple options on how to do so.
Are you out there in a little Reaper ship helping them commit genocides? No, of course not. But you, and you alone, allowed them to continue on. Through your inaction, you are a party to it. Whether you like it or not.
babachewie wrote...
if you're not gonna bring anything other than stupid responses than go away.DistantUtopia wrote...
babachewie wrote...
You're not trusitng the catalyst. your trusitng the endless cycles that built the crucible in the first place.
So...we should be blaming the previous cycles then for the poor endings we got?
wulf3n wrote...
Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Destroy was the original purpose of the Crucible. It tells you that there are now two new options, and tries to steer you towards those options, and specifically towards Synthesis. It does not WANT you to pick Destroy but short of disabling the Crucible completely and allowing the cycle to continue, it knows it cannot actively STOP you from picking it if that's what you want.
That's why the two other options are there - to try and get you to pick one of those instead of Destroy.
Then why tell you destroy exists. You can argue that the crucible changed the catalyst until the cows come home, but you admit the catalyst still has free will, so why not gloss over the destroy tube? would you have shot it, if you only thought it was a set piece, or had no idea what shooting it would do?
Sure, because Shepard hasn't defeated impossible odds before.arial wrote...
no, it is Denial,The Genophage wrote...
Bull, When my Shep was talking to the Catalyst he said that He doesn't believe when the catalyst told him he can't be beat conventionally, so its not denial. Its the same Leap of faith.arial wrote...
it is stated in the game it take 4 dreadnoughts to down a Sovereign-class Reaper, and there are thousnads of Sovereign-class Reapers, as well as thousnads of Destroyers, and probably millions of Occuli(SP?). and there are no more then 120 Dreadnoughts in the GalaxyThe Genophage wrote...
Trusting in the Catalyst and believing you can beat them conventionally is the same leap of faith, so your saying I would go to jail for choosing an option when both when unlogical?arial wrote...
you would actually, because you knew there was no other way to stop themThe Genophage wrote...
When you refuse, your still fighting, if I were to try to stop the crime but failed, I wouldn't be held accountable now would I?arial wrote...
exactly, and as the law states, if you do not prevent the crime, you are just as guilty as those who commited itFather_Jerusalem wrote...
The Genophage wrote...
@Ghost9191.
No, you fail to understand the definition of Genocide, and keep accusing me of Genocide when I clearly explained the difference, therefore I'm done arguing with nonsense.
Definition of GENOCIDE[/i]: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
By choosing "refuse" you DELIBERATELY allow the cycle to continue while the Reapers systematicall destroy many many racial, political, or cultural groups.
You are a party to genocide by allowing the Reapers to continue Reaping instead of stopping them when you were given multiple options on how to do so.
Are you out there in a little Reaper ship helping them commit genocides? No, of course not. But you, and you alone, allowed them to continue on. Through your inaction, you are a party to it. Whether you like it or not.
Even giving every living Organic there own Frigate, we would not have the firepower to take out the Reapers conventionally
therefore conventional warfare is not a leap-of-faith, it is pure denial
number don't lie no matter what your Shepard said, Organics do not have the firepower to take them on conventionally, its been said by Liara, Hackett, Anderson, Prothean VI, and the games own Codex
wulf3n wrote...
Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Destroy was the original purpose of the Crucible. It tells you that there are now two new options, and tries to steer you towards those options, and specifically towards Synthesis. It does not WANT you to pick Destroy but short of disabling the Crucible completely and allowing the cycle to continue, it knows it cannot actively STOP you from picking it if that's what you want.
That's why the two other options are there - to try and get you to pick one of those instead of Destroy.
Then why tell you destroy exists. You can argue that the crucible changed the catalyst until the cows come home, but you admit the catalyst still has free will, so why not gloss over the destroy tube? would you have shot it, if you only thought it was a set piece, or had no idea what shooting it would do?
Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Shepard has no reason NOT to believe the Catalyst. The Catalyst has NO reason to lie. The Catalyst is WINNING. The Reapers are WINNING. This isn't a Bond movie where the villain has to kidnap Bond and explain his whole plan in order to try and trick or force Bond to sympathize with them in order to win.
This is Watchmen. This is Ozymandius saying "What am I, a Bond villain? I launched the attack ten minutes ago."
Shepard goes to the Crucible knowing that this is the ONE CHANCE they have to defeat the Reapers - use the Crucible. Knowing that if he does not, they will lose. Everything. It is repeatedly drilled into Shepard's head through the course of 2.5 games that you cannot. Stop. The. Reapers. Conventionally.
By refusing to believe the Catalyst, you are playing right into the hands of the Reapers.
Modifié par Eain, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:37 .
Because they had no other choise, in other cycles the Reapers came out of surprise.babachewie wrote...
Who cares if they didnt know what they were building. They knew it was from countless cycles determened to stop the reapers and that it would destroy them. Why else would they have made plans for it or attempted ot build it?You're whole argument is not trusting the catalyst when it in fact has nothing to do with what the crucible can do.The Genophage wrote...
The crucible was never finished, They didn't even know what they were building, maybe the first, first cycle knew.babachewie wrote...
You're not trusitng the catalyst. your trusitng the endless cycles that built the crucible in the first place.The Genophage wrote...
Trusting in the Catalyst and believing you can beat them conventionally is the same leap of faith, so your saying I would go to jail for choosing an option when both when unlogical?arial wrote...
you would actually, because you knew there was no other way to stop themThe Genophage wrote...
When you refuse, your still fighting, if I were to try to stop the crime but failed, I wouldn't be held accountable now would I?arial wrote...
exactly, and as the law states, if you do not prevent the crime, you are just as guilty as those who commited itFather_Jerusalem wrote...
The Genophage wrote...
@Ghost9191.
No, you fail to understand the definition of Genocide, and keep accusing me of Genocide when I clearly explained the difference, therefore I'm done arguing with nonsense.
Definition of GENOCIDE[/i]: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
By choosing "refuse" you DELIBERATELY allow the cycle to continue while the Reapers systematicall destroy many many racial, political, or cultural groups.
You are a party to genocide by allowing the Reapers to continue Reaping instead of stopping them when you were given multiple options on how to do so.
Are you out there in a little Reaper ship helping them commit genocides? No, of course not. But you, and you alone, allowed them to continue on. Through your inaction, you are a party to it. Whether you like it or not.
Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Because if Control or Synthesis are the ONLY options, there is a bigger chance that you wouldn't pick them because it's against your moral code. By telling you ALL the information, quite frankly, it is showing that it can be trustworthy and giving you the option to pick from either "best" or "least worst".
Thank you, though, for showing more evidence of why the Catalyst has no reason to lie to Shepard.
The Protheans never finished the Crucible, Your complete point is moot.babachewie wrote...
People seem to refuse cause they believe they are submitting to the catalyst options when in fact the Catalyst doesn't have anything to do with the options. The options were put there by the other cycles to either control or destroy the reapers. The Protheans had a internal struggle with each other just to determine what course of action to take. The Protheans who backed control were indoctrinated like cerberus. They fought so much with each other they didn't even get to use the crucible and were destroyed. The game is all about cycles and those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The Catalyst is the citadel. The ones who came up with the plans for the crucible needed something to amplify its power and the Citadel being the central hub on the entire mass relay network, was added to the schematics. Nobody knew about the AI living in it. Thats how Synthesis was added once it was attached. Once the crucible was attached to it, it ran into an unknown, the AI, which changed it and gave the crucible a new option. You're not submitting to choices that wasn't even his in the first place. Refuse is ignorant knowing this.
DistantUtopia wrote...
Heh. I wonder how Javik would react now?
"Hey Javik. I chose green because of your cycle's addition to the Crucible. Congratulations. You're now part synthetic!"
Javik: (╯ಠಠ益ಠಠ)╯︵ ┻━┻
:lol: 
Eain wrote...
Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Shepard has no reason NOT to believe the Catalyst. The Catalyst has NO reason to lie. The Catalyst is WINNING. The Reapers are WINNING. This isn't a Bond movie where the villain has to kidnap Bond and explain his whole plan in order to try and trick or force Bond to sympathize with them in order to win.
This is Watchmen. This is Ozymandius saying "What am I, a Bond villain? I launched the attack ten minutes ago."
Shepard goes to the Crucible knowing that this is the ONE CHANCE they have to defeat the Reapers - use the Crucible. Knowing that if he does not, they will lose. Everything. It is repeatedly drilled into Shepard's head through the course of 2.5 games that you cannot. Stop. The. Reapers. Conventionally.
By refusing to believe the Catalyst, you are playing right into the hands of the Reapers.
No reason to lie? The Catalyst has every reason to lie. The Crucible shows every sign of being Reaper tech aswell as a plan B device for efficient eradication of the galaxy's armed forces. Why not lure them to a single place to kill them all in one fell stroke? Who's to say that shooting the tube won't just blow up the entire allied fleet? Why would Shepard believe the opposite?
If there's anything smart Shepard can do with her dying moments it's not doing as the Reaper Overlord says. Why would you trust an entity that says "I know you were almost dead, but... could you please win this war now? It's clear the cycle no longer works because you made it this far, even though I brought you here. You can replace me as Reaper Overlord or kill us all or synthesise all life in the galaxy. Please just pick one and lets get this over with."
It's probably the most ridiculous thing she's ever heard in her life. The fleets are losing, sure, but the galaxy may still have a chance if the Crucible remains undeployed.
The Genophage wrote...
My Shep told him, he believed he can beat him without the crucible, again, it came out his mouth, so now, in my point of view he didn't win. Stop assuming how other people view situations.
SMichelle wrote...
I think he was just joking.
Why can't we all just admit that all endings make Shepard a dick?
C'mon! Group hug now!
not to this Degree, Shepard is not a god, he is not some devine being, he is a Soldier, and a Soldier that can not this win war conventionally.The Genophage wrote...
Sure, because Shepard hasn't defeated impossible odds before.arial wrote...
no, it is Denial,The Genophage wrote...
Bull, When my Shep was talking to the Catalyst he said that He doesn't believe when the catalyst told him he can't be beat conventionally, so its not denial. Its the same Leap of faith.arial wrote...
it is stated in the game it take 4 dreadnoughts to down a Sovereign-class Reaper, and there are thousnads of Sovereign-class Reapers, as well as thousnads of Destroyers, and probably millions of Occuli(SP?). and there are no more then 120 Dreadnoughts in the GalaxyThe Genophage wrote...
Trusting in the Catalyst and believing you can beat them conventionally is the same leap of faith, so your saying I would go to jail for choosing an option when both when unlogical?arial wrote...
you would actually, because you knew there was no other way to stop themThe Genophage wrote...
When you refuse, your still fighting, if I were to try to stop the crime but failed, I wouldn't be held accountable now would I?arial wrote...
exactly, and as the law states, if you do not prevent the crime, you are just as guilty as those who commited itFather_Jerusalem wrote...
The Genophage wrote...
@Ghost9191.
No, you fail to understand the definition of Genocide, and keep accusing me of Genocide when I clearly explained the difference, therefore I'm done arguing with nonsense.
Definition of GENOCIDE[/i]: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group
By choosing "refuse" you DELIBERATELY allow the cycle to continue while the Reapers systematicall destroy many many racial, political, or cultural groups.
You are a party to genocide by allowing the Reapers to continue Reaping instead of stopping them when you were given multiple options on how to do so.
Are you out there in a little Reaper ship helping them commit genocides? No, of course not. But you, and you alone, allowed them to continue on. Through your inaction, you are a party to it. Whether you like it or not.
Even giving every living Organic there own Frigate, we would not have the firepower to take out the Reapers conventionally
therefore conventional warfare is not a leap-of-faith, it is pure denial
number don't lie no matter what your Shepard said, Organics do not have the firepower to take them on conventionally, its been said by Liara, Hackett, Anderson, Prothean VI, and the games own Codex
Modifié par arial, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:39 .
then you have no idea what oyu're talking about. Go back to Thessia and talk to the prothean VI or read the freakin wiki http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/CrucibleThe Genophage wrote...
The Protheans never finished the Crucible, Your complete point is moot.babachewie wrote...
People seem to refuse cause they believe they are submitting to the catalyst options when in fact the Catalyst doesn't have anything to do with the options. The options were put there by the other cycles to either control or destroy the reapers. The Protheans had a internal struggle with each other just to determine what course of action to take. The Protheans who backed control were indoctrinated like cerberus. They fought so much with each other they didn't even get to use the crucible and were destroyed. The game is all about cycles and those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The Catalyst is the citadel. The ones who came up with the plans for the crucible needed something to amplify its power and the Citadel being the central hub on the entire mass relay network, was added to the schematics. Nobody knew about the AI living in it. Thats how Synthesis was added once it was attached. Once the crucible was attached to it, it ran into an unknown, the AI, which changed it and gave the crucible a new option. You're not submitting to choices that wasn't even his in the first place. Refuse is ignorant knowing this.
Modifié par babachewie, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:39 .
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