470 réponses à ce sujet

[DistantUtopia]

arial wrote...
it is stated in the game it take 4 dreadnoughts to down a Sovereign-class Reaper, and there are thousnads of Sovereign-class Reapers, as well as thousnads of Destroyers, and probably millions of Occuli(SP?). and there are no more then 120 Dreadnoughts in the Galaxy

Even giving every living Organic there own Frigate, we would not have the firepower to take out the Reapers conventionally

therefore conventional warfare is not a leap-of-faith, it is pure denial

Ok, I'm gonna have to call you out on this because I can't for the life of me find where this is stated.  I do agree though that there could be potentially thousands of Sovereign Reapers if we use the following formula:

2,000,000,000 years / 50,000 years per cycle = 40,000 Cycles

Even assuming only 1 Sovereign ship per cycle, that's 40,000 Sovereign-class reapers.  Even if only 10% of all cycles actually could make a Sovereign class Reaper, that's still 4,000 ships vs. the ~120 dreadnaughts.

[SMichelle]

The Genophage wrote...

...
Sure, because Shepard hasn't defeated impossible odds before.

You honestly think  Shepard and her allies could do something countless cycles have failed to do for eons......?

O-O-Okay. 



Eons.  Countless cycles. 

[Father_Jerusalem]

Eain wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Shepard has no reason NOT to believe the Catalyst. The Catalyst has NO reason to lie. The Catalyst is WINNING. The Reapers are WINNING. This isn't a Bond movie where the villain has to kidnap Bond and explain his whole plan in order to try and trick or force Bond to sympathize with them in order to win.

This is Watchmen. This is Ozymandius saying "What am I, a Bond villain? I launched the attack ten minutes ago." 

Shepard goes to the Crucible knowing that this is the ONE CHANCE they have to defeat the Reapers - use the Crucible. Knowing that if he does not, they will lose. Everything. It is repeatedly drilled into Shepard's head through the course of 2.5 games that you cannot. Stop. The. Reapers. Conventionally. 

By refusing to believe the Catalyst, you are playing right into the hands of the Reapers. 

No reason to lie? The Catalyst has every reason to lie. The Crucible shows every sign of being Reaper tech aswell as a plan B device for efficient eradication of the galaxy's armed forces. Why not lure them to a single place to kill them all in one fell stroke? Who's to say that shooting the tube won't just blow up the entire allied fleet? Why would Shepard believe the opposite?

If there's anything smart Shepard can do with her dying moments it's not doing as the Reaper Overlord says. Why would you trust an entity that says "I know you were almost dead, but... could you please win this war now? It's clear the cycle no longer works because you made it this far, even though I brought you here. You can replace me as Reaper Overlord or kill us all or synthesise all life in the galaxy. Please just pick one and lets get this over with."

It's probably the most ridiculous thing she's ever heard in her life. The fleets are losing, sure, but the galaxy may still have a chance if the Crucible remains undeployed.

Also, other characters may say that the Reapers cannot be beaten conventionally, but then again they always say that things cannot be done which Shepard then proceeds to do. In her experience the conventional way has always been the proven way. Moreover, if the entire galaxy is indeed so convinced that conventional victory is impossible, that makes the sudden and convenient appearance of the Crucible plans in the Mars Archives all the more suspicious. If I were Shepard I would think the Reapers planted them there.

Why would it lie? No, seriously. Why? What POSSIBLE motivation would it have to lie? To "blow up all the fleets at once"? Well, the Reapers themselves are doing a damn fine job of it without the Crucible's help. 

If your Shepard wants to doom the galaxy to extinction and harvest out of her paranoia and self-righteousness... then I truly hope it was worth it. 

[DistantUtopia]

SMichelle wrote...


You honestly think  Shepard and her allies could do something countless cycles have failed to do for eons......?

O-O-Okay. 



Eons.  Countless cycles. 

Of course. He's "The Shepard" after all.

[The Genophage]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

My Shep told him, he believed he can beat him without the crucible, again, it came out his mouth, so now, in my point of view he didn't win. Stop assuming how other people view situations.

Your Shep is an idiot. You are repeatedly told throught the course of 2.5 games that you CANNOT beat the Reapers. You are told numerous times through the story of ME3 that you CANNOT beat the Reapers without the Crucible. The entire plan in CONTINGENT upon the Crucible. The resources you've gathered are FOR the Crucible. The fleets you've gathered are FOR the Crucible.

If you, then, sit there and say "nuh uh, I can beat you without the Crucible" then, quite frankly, you are doing so solely out of willful ignorance. You are refusing to acknowledge the reality of the situation, and I truly hope that your Shepard's last moments of self-righteousness were worth dooming EVERY MEMBER OF EVERY ADVANCED CIVILIZATION IN THE GALAXY to either a horrific death, or even worse, being consigned as Reaper goo.

Idiot no, stubborn maybe, anyway he didn't commit Genocide and my point of both being equal leap of faith is proven right.

[arial]

DistantUtopia wrote...

arial wrote...
it is stated in the game it take 4 dreadnoughts to down a Sovereign-class Reaper, and there are thousnads of Sovereign-class Reapers, as well as thousnads of Destroyers, and probably millions of Occuli(SP?). and there are no more then 120 Dreadnoughts in the Galaxy

Even giving every living Organic there own Frigate, we would not have the firepower to take out the Reapers conventionally

therefore conventional warfare is not a leap-of-faith, it is pure denial

Ok, I'm gonna have to call you out on this because I can't for the life of me find where this is stated.  I do agree though that there could be potentially thousands of Sovereign Reapers if we use the following formula:

2,000,000,000 years / 50,000 years per cycle = 40,000 Cycles

Even assuming only 1 Sovereign ship per cycle, that's 40,000 Sovereign-class reapers.  Even if only 10% of all cycles actually could make a Sovereign class Reaper, that's still 4,000 ships vs. the ~120 dreadnaughts.

it was some point where Shepard said "There are thousands more like them". cant remember where exactly

[The Genophage]

SMichelle wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

...
Sure, because Shepard hasn't defeated impossible odds before.

You honestly think  Shepard and her allies could do something countless cycles have failed to do for eons......?

O-O-Okay. 



Eons.  Countless cycles. 

He's done it before
:happy:

[Father_Jerusalem]

wulf3n wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Because if Control or Synthesis are the ONLY options, there is a bigger chance that you wouldn't pick them because it's against your moral code. By telling you ALL the information, quite frankly, it is showing that it can be trustworthy and giving you the option to pick from either "best" or "least worst".

Thank you, though, for showing more evidence of why the Catalyst has no reason to lie to Shepard.

But what does it have to lose if you don't believe it?

you've already said it has won no matter what EXCEPT when destory is on the table. So why then would it give you the only chance you have to destroy it? it's pure idiocy.

Because the original purpose of the Crucible was to destroy the Reapers. If it tries to convince you that "What? No. Course not. Destroy the Reapers. How ridiculous. Why don't you try the "I want cake" button over there..." then, quite frankly, you would be right to be suspicious, and I don't know about you, but I'd start shooting everything that looked explodable. 

[incinerator950]

[arial]

The Genophage wrote...

SMichelle wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

...
Sure, because Shepard hasn't defeated impossible odds before.

You honestly think  Shepard and her allies could do something countless cycles have failed to do for eons......?

O-O-Okay. 



Eons.  Countless cycles. 

He's done it before
:happy:

hes never faced a task of this magitude, here he will be squashed like vermin

[Ryzaki]

SMichelle wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

...
Sure, because Shepard hasn't defeated impossible odds before.

You honestly think  Shepard and her allies could do something countless cycles have failed to do for eons......?

O-O-Okay. 



Eons.  Countless cycles. 

Shep's cycle? No heads too far up asses, too incompetent, too unprepared and warnings too unclear.

Next cycle though? Hellz yes.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:43 .

[wulf3n]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Why would it lie? No, seriously. Why? What POSSIBLE motivation would it have to lie? To "blow up all the fleets at once"? Well, the Reapers themselves are doing a damn fine job of it without the Crucible's help. 

Keep in mind that each Reaper is the genetic legacy of a Reaped cycle, I think the catalyst would want to minimise the amount of species and civilizations lost.

[Father_Jerusalem]

The Genophage wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

My Shep told him, he believed he can beat him without the crucible, again, it came out his mouth, so now, in my point of view he didn't win. Stop assuming how other people view situations.

Your Shep is an idiot. You are repeatedly told throught the course of 2.5 games that you CANNOT beat the Reapers. You are told numerous times through the story of ME3 that you CANNOT beat the Reapers without the Crucible. The entire plan in CONTINGENT upon the Crucible. The resources you've gathered are FOR the Crucible. The fleets you've gathered are FOR the Crucible.

If you, then, sit there and say "nuh uh, I can beat you without the Crucible" then, quite frankly, you are doing so solely out of willful ignorance. You are refusing to acknowledge the reality of the situation, and I truly hope that your Shepard's last moments of self-righteousness were worth dooming EVERY MEMBER OF EVERY ADVANCED CIVILIZATION IN THE GALAXY to either a horrific death, or even worse, being consigned as Reaper goo.

Idiot no, stubborn maybe, anyway he didn't commit Genocide and my point of both being equal leap of faith is proven right.

No, he's a genocidal idiot, and your point of both being equal was, in no way, proven. 

My leap has a CHANCE of us winning and the cycles being stopped.

Your leap has NO chance of us winning and the cycles being stopped.

[Eain]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Why would it lie? No, seriously. Why?

I don't know, why do Reapers do anything? Sovereign made a pretty good case for their motives being beyond comprehension. That alone is enough to cast doubt on anything any Reaper ever says, forever, because you can never expect it to be grounded in common rationality.

Modifié par Eain, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:44 .

[The Genophage]

babachewie wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

babachewie wrote...

People seem to refuse cause they believe they are submitting to the catalyst options when in fact the Catalyst doesn't have anything to do with the options. The options were put there by the other cycles to either control or destroy the reapers. The Protheans had a internal struggle with each other just to determine what course of action to take. The Protheans who backed control were indoctrinated like cerberus. They fought so much with each other they didn't even get to use the crucible and were destroyed. The game is all about cycles and those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The Catalyst is the citadel. The ones who came up with the plans for the crucible needed something to amplify its power and the Citadel being the central hub on the entire mass relay network, was added to the schematics. Nobody knew about the AI living in it. Thats how Synthesis was added once it was attached. Once the crucible was attached to it, it ran into an unknown, the AI, which changed it and gave the crucible a new option. You're not submitting to choices that wasn't even his in the first place. Refuse is ignorant knowing this.

The Protheans never finished the Crucible, Your complete point is moot.

then you have no idea what oyu're talking about. Go back to Thessia and talk to the prothean VI or read the freakin wiki http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Crucible

The Prothean VI says someone wanted to control the reapers like TIM, never does it say the Crucible was finished by the Protheans, neither does it say it on the wiki, they found out the Citadel was the crucible but it was too late, either they didn't have the resources to build the crucible or the people/time.

[Father_Jerusalem]

wulf3n wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Why would it lie? No, seriously. Why? What POSSIBLE motivation would it have to lie? To "blow up all the fleets at once"? Well, the Reapers themselves are doing a damn fine job of it without the Crucible's help. 

Keep in mind that each Reaper is the genetic legacy of a Reaped cycle, I think the catalyst would want to minimise the amount of species and civilizations lost.

According to the Catalyst.

So, he'll tell the truth about that, but lie about everything else?

[The Genophage]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

My Shep told him, he believed he can beat him without the crucible, again, it came out his mouth, so now, in my point of view he didn't win. Stop assuming how other people view situations.

Your Shep is an idiot. You are repeatedly told throught the course of 2.5 games that you CANNOT beat the Reapers. You are told numerous times through the story of ME3 that you CANNOT beat the Reapers without the Crucible. The entire plan in CONTINGENT upon the Crucible. The resources you've gathered are FOR the Crucible. The fleets you've gathered are FOR the Crucible.

If you, then, sit there and say "nuh uh, I can beat you without the Crucible" then, quite frankly, you are doing so solely out of willful ignorance. You are refusing to acknowledge the reality of the situation, and I truly hope that your Shepard's last moments of self-righteousness were worth dooming EVERY MEMBER OF EVERY ADVANCED CIVILIZATION IN THE GALAXY to either a horrific death, or even worse, being consigned as Reaper goo.

Idiot no, stubborn maybe, anyway he didn't commit Genocide and my point of both being equal leap of faith is proven right.

No, he's a genocidal idiot, and your point of both being equal was, in no way, proven. 

My leap has a CHANCE of us winning and the cycles being stopped.

Your leap has NO chance of us winning and the cycles being stopped.

So you can commit Genocide even though it wasn't deliberately or systematically, way to contradict yourselve there buddy.
This is what your saying
Taking a chance with the Reapers=good
Taking a chance with you allies to defeat the reapers=bad
I just love your logic

[ghost9191]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

My Shep told him, he believed he can beat him without the crucible, again, it came out his mouth, so now, in my point of view he didn't win. Stop assuming how other people view situations.

Your Shep is an idiot. You are repeatedly told throught the course of 2.5 games that you CANNOT beat the Reapers. You are told numerous times through the story of ME3 that you CANNOT beat the Reapers without the Crucible. The entire plan in CONTINGENT upon the Crucible. The resources you've gathered are FOR the Crucible. The fleets you've gathered are FOR the Crucible.

If you, then, sit there and say "nuh uh, I can beat you without the Crucible" then, quite frankly, you are doing so solely out of willful ignorance. You are refusing to acknowledge the reality of the situation, and I truly hope that your Shepard's last moments of self-righteousness were worth dooming EVERY MEMBER OF EVERY ADVANCED CIVILIZATION IN THE GALAXY to either a horrific death, or even worse, being consigned as Reaper goo.

Idiot no, stubborn maybe, anyway he didn't commit Genocide and my point of both being equal leap of faith is proven right.

No, he's a genocidal idiot, and your point of both being equal was, in no way, proven. 

My leap has a CHANCE of us winning and the cycles being stopped.

Your leap has NO chance of us winning and the cycles being stopped.

i hope you don't mean leap into beam of green:D

not a well thought out joke but ther eit is

[arial]

The Genophage wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

My Shep told him, he believed he can beat him without the crucible, again, it came out his mouth, so now, in my point of view he didn't win. Stop assuming how other people view situations.

Your Shep is an idiot. You are repeatedly told throught the course of 2.5 games that you CANNOT beat the Reapers. You are told numerous times through the story of ME3 that you CANNOT beat the Reapers without the Crucible. The entire plan in CONTINGENT upon the Crucible. The resources you've gathered are FOR the Crucible. The fleets you've gathered are FOR the Crucible.

If you, then, sit there and say "nuh uh, I can beat you without the Crucible" then, quite frankly, you are doing so solely out of willful ignorance. You are refusing to acknowledge the reality of the situation, and I truly hope that your Shepard's last moments of self-righteousness were worth dooming EVERY MEMBER OF EVERY ADVANCED CIVILIZATION IN THE GALAXY to either a horrific death, or even worse, being consigned as Reaper goo.

Idiot no, stubborn maybe, anyway he didn't commit Genocide and my point of both being equal leap of faith is proven right.

No, he's a genocidal idiot, and your point of both being equal was, in no way, proven. 

My leap has a CHANCE of us winning and the cycles being stopped.

Your leap has NO chance of us winning and the cycles being stopped.

So you can commit Genocide even though it wasn't deliberately or systematically, way to contradict yourselve there buddy.
This is what your saying
Taking a chance with the Reapers=good
Taking a chance with you allies to defeat the reapers=bad
I just love your logic

taking chance with Reaper = chance
takin chance without = suicide

[Father_Jerusalem]

Eain wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Why would it lie? No, seriously. Why?

I don't know, why do Reapers do anything? Sovereign made a pretty good case for their motives being beyond comprehension. That alone is enough to cast doubt on anything any Reaper ever says, forever, because you can never expect it to be grounded in common rationality.

Ah, you hold to the "Everything Sovereign says is the literal truth and everything afterwards is crap writing and attempts at retcons, so stuff the Starchild" camp.

Given that, there's nothing I could ever possibly say to convince you that the Starchild has literally zero reason to lie to you, so I will simply stop trying.

Good day.

[babachewie]

The Genophage wrote...

babachewie wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

babachewie wrote...

People seem to refuse cause they believe they are submitting to the catalyst options when in fact the Catalyst doesn't have anything to do with the options. The options were put there by the other cycles to either control or destroy the reapers. The Protheans had a internal struggle with each other just to determine what course of action to take. The Protheans who backed control were indoctrinated like cerberus. They fought so much with each other they didn't even get to use the crucible and were destroyed. The game is all about cycles and those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The Catalyst is the citadel. The ones who came up with the plans for the crucible needed something to amplify its power and the Citadel being the central hub on the entire mass relay network, was added to the schematics. Nobody knew about the AI living in it. Thats how Synthesis was added once it was attached. Once the crucible was attached to it, it ran into an unknown, the AI, which changed it and gave the crucible a new option. You're not submitting to choices that wasn't even his in the first place. Refuse is ignorant knowing this.

The Protheans never finished the Crucible, Your complete point is moot.

then you have no idea what oyu're talking about. Go back to Thessia and talk to the prothean VI or read the freakin wiki http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Crucible

The Prothean VI says someone wanted to control the reapers like TIM, never does it say the Crucible was finished by the Protheans, neither does it say it on the wiki, they found out the Citadel was the crucible but it was too late, either they didn't have the resources to build the crucible or the people/time.

I guess you misse th e part where th ewiki states: The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it, infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers; these separatists were later discovered to be indoctrinated. And the VI does say the same thing. Also I didnt say anything about the citdel being the crucible. so pay attention. 

Modifié par babachewie, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:49 .

[wulf3n]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Because the original purpose of the Crucible was to destroy the Reapers. 

 

How could anyone know this? know one knows who first started building the cruciable it could've been the catalyst itself as a fail safe. All anyone knows is that it releases a butt load of energy and the other cycles THOUGHT it would stop the reapers.

Father_Jerusalem wrote... 
If it tries to convince you that "What? No. Course not. Destroy the Reapers. How ridiculous. Why don't you try the "I want cake" button over there..." then, quite frankly, you would be right to be suspicious, 

 

 It's a tube not a button, for all you know it could be just a capacitor or something.  

Father_Jerusalem wrote...  
and I don't know about you, but I'd start shooting everything that looked explodable. 

I wouldn't be stupid enough to start blowing up pieces of a weapon I know nothing about.

Father_Jerusalem wrote...
According to the Catalyst.

So, he'll tell the truth about that, but lie about everything else?

 

Why not? people can tell half truths. 

besides it doesn't really matter, if he did lie about that it puts everything he says into question, if he isn't lying it gives him a motivation for wanting to end the fight as quickly as possible.

Modifié par wulf3n, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:51 .

[Father_Jerusalem]

The Genophage wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...




No, he's a genocidal idiot, and your point of both being equal was, in no way, proven. 

My leap has a CHANCE of us winning and the cycles being stopped.

Your leap has NO chance of us winning and the cycles being stopped.

So you can commit Genocide even though it wasn't deliberately or systematically, way to contradict yourselve there buddy.
This is what your saying
Taking a chance with the Reapers=good
Taking a chance with you allies to defeat the reapers=bad
I just love your logic

You DELIBERATELY chose to allow the Reapers to continue their cycle. That. Is. Being. Party. To. Genocide. 

THAT is what I am saying.

Taking a chance with the Starchild = good.

Ignoring facts, logic and rationality to stick to your own self-righteous moral code and knowingly doom the entire galaxy to extinction = bad.

THAT is what I am saying.

[The Genophage]

babachewie wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

babachewie wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

babachewie wrote...

People seem to refuse cause they believe they are submitting to the catalyst options when in fact the Catalyst doesn't have anything to do with the options. The options were put there by the other cycles to either control or destroy the reapers. The Protheans had a internal struggle with each other just to determine what course of action to take. The Protheans who backed control were indoctrinated like cerberus. They fought so much with each other they didn't even get to use the crucible and were destroyed. The game is all about cycles and those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The Catalyst is the citadel. The ones who came up with the plans for the crucible needed something to amplify its power and the Citadel being the central hub on the entire mass relay network, was added to the schematics. Nobody knew about the AI living in it. Thats how Synthesis was added once it was attached. Once the crucible was attached to it, it ran into an unknown, the AI, which changed it and gave the crucible a new option. You're not submitting to choices that wasn't even his in the first place. Refuse is ignorant knowing this.

The Protheans never finished the Crucible, Your complete point is moot.

then you have no idea what oyu're talking about. Go back to Thessia and talk to the prothean VI or read the freakin wiki http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Crucible

The Prothean VI says someone wanted to control the reapers like TIM, never does it say the Crucible was finished by the Protheans, neither does it say it on the wiki, they found out the Citadel was the crucible but it was too late, either they didn't have the resources to build the crucible or the people/time.

I guess you misse th e part where th ewiki states: [color=rgb(192, 192, 192)">The ]Protheans[/color][/url][color=rgb(192, 192, 192)">, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it, infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers]indoctrinated[/color][/url]. And the VI does say the same thing. Also I didnt say anything about the citdel being the crucible. so pay attention. 

It was never deployed therefore therefore they don't know about the Catalyst....

[Father_Jerusalem]

wulf3n wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Because the original purpose of the Crucible was to destroy the Reapers. 

 

How could anyone know this? know one knows who first started building the cruciable it could've been the catalyst itself as a fail safe. All anyone knows is that it releases a butt load of energy and the other cycles THOUGHT it would stop the reapers.

Father_Jerusalem wrote... 
If it tries to convince you that "What? No. Course not. Destroy the Reapers. How ridiculous. Why don't you try the "I want cake" button over there..." then, quite frankly, you would be right to be suspicious, 

 

 It's a tube not a button, for all you know it could be just a capacitor or something.  

Father_Jerusalem wrote...  
and I don't know about you, but I'd start shooting everything that looked explodable. 

I wouldn't be stupid enough to start blowing up pieces of a weapon I know nothing about.

"Thought" it would stop the Reapers is better than "knowing we can't stop the Reapers". It is. It's a CHANCE. 

And yes, I know it's a tube not a button, I was making the example that the Starchild would try to distract you from the glowy tube with a "Free cake" button. 

To be perfectly blunt: If I was bleeding to death, the fleets of the combined galaxy were getting their asses handed to them, and the only chance at winning to get this giant hunk of metal to fire... I don't know that there is anything that I would say "I wouldn't be stupid enough" to do.