470 réponses à ce sujet

[DMWW]

EsterCloat wrote...
You cannot compare budget reports and international diplomacy with having one man being forced in the span of five minutes to choose the future of all life that will ever be in our galaxy. You cannot compare taking funding away from one sector of our economy with the genocide of an entire race, the continuation of abominations millions of years old, or the complete and utter rewriting of all life that currently does and will ever live.

And equally, you cannot compare the consequences of getting international diplomacy wrong with the consequences of allowing the Reapers to exterminate all sentient life.

Ultimately, this is a fairly classic ends-and-means ethical question, just with ridiculously high stakes.* You can coherently defend either position, but it doesn't make sense to appeal to the very high stakes in the undesirable means without recognising the comparably high stakes in the desirable end. (And kudos to Bioware for putting something so not-black-and-white into the game.)

* It's basically the trolley problem scaled up, for anyone who's studied any ethics: six species are tied to a railroad track,...

[Sniktchtherat]

All the endings are abhorrent.

[lillitheris]

KingZayd wrote...

Rhiens VI wrote...

ElementL09 wrote...

I find it hilarious that the Catalyst even gave me the option to blow him and the Reapers up.

I suggest you think about it. Maybe you'll understand.

OP, I'm with you.

Don't be a coward, just shoot the tube.

There is no logical reason for the Starchild to give you that destroy option unless either it doesn't destroy the Reapers, or it's convinced you won't pick destroy.

That’s why it didn’t…it’s just sadly programmed to divulge all information about the hardware configuration of the Crucible dock. The only options it offers you are Synthesis and Control…its clever little diverter is preventing the Crucible from firing and performing its mission…

Just shoot the tube, and the Crucible will work as intended.

[Versus Omnibus]

If there is one good thing I can think of about Destroy is that at least people survive. Refuse just seems like a choice where people choose their pride over trillions of lives.

[KingZayd]

lillitheris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Rhiens VI wrote...

ElementL09 wrote...

I find it hilarious that the Catalyst even gave me the option to blow him and the Reapers up.

I suggest you think about it. Maybe you'll understand.

OP, I'm with you.

Don't be a coward, just shoot the tube.

There is no logical reason for the Starchild to give you that destroy option unless either it doesn't destroy the Reapers, or it's convinced you won't pick destroy.

That’s why it didn’t…it’s just sadly programmed to divulge all information about the hardware configuration of the Crucible dock. The only options it offers you are Synthesis and Control…its clever little diverter is preventing the Crucible from firing and performing its mission…

Just shoot the tube, and the Crucible will work as intended.

Like when it tells you the Crucible is "little more than a power source"?

[DistantUtopia]

DarthSliver wrote...

Well I look at it this way, we didnt go there to control the Reapers or mix our dna so we are all the same we went there to destroy them. We also didnt go there to hope the next cycle will do what we couldnt do and beat the Reapers. 

No argument there.  It's the fact that Refusal just makes the next cycle use the crucible again *cough*meta-gaming*cough* which makes Refusal feel like a slap in the face as a choice.

Again, it also depends on how you interpret your "Shepard".  My Shepard believes the Catalyst is giving false options; he has no reason to believe the words of the collective knowledge of the Reapers, the very beings he's trying to destroy. So for him, Refusal make sense.

[arial]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

If there is one good thing I can think of about Destroy is that at least people survive. Refuse just seems like a choice where people choose their pride over trillions of lives.

I agree

[Kick In The Door]

Refusal is forcing your own morals on others to doom them to death. It's an extremely selfish and egomaniacal choice. You're no better than Hitler in that regard. At least the other endings give the galaxy a chance, refusal is outright quitting because you want to feel good about yourself.

That is all.

[DarthSliver]

DistantUtopia wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

Well I look at it this way, we didnt go there to control the Reapers or mix our dna so we are all the same we went there to destroy them. We also didnt go there to hope the next cycle will do what we couldnt do and beat the Reapers. 

No argument there.  It's the fact that Refusal just makes the next cycle use the crucible again *cough*meta-gaming*cough* which makes Refusal feel like a slap in the face as a choice.

Again, it also depends on how you interpret your "Shepard".  My Shepard believes the Catalyst is giving false options; he has no reason to believe the words of the collective knowledge of the Reapers, the very beings he's trying to destroy. So for him, Refusal make sense.

Well the problem with that is I believe the Cruicable altered the Catalyst and allowed it to see more options to its Synthetic problem that begun the Cycles in the first place. I dont quite remember what it saids when it starts talking but I am sure i remember it saying it got Altered in some shape or form when the Cruicable docked with the Citadel.

[Shepardtheshepard]

Kick In The Door wrote...

Refusal is forcing your own morals on others to doom them to death. It's an extremely selfish and egomaniacal choice. You're no better than Hitler in that regard. At least the other endings give the galaxy a chance, refusal is outright quitting because you want to feel good about yourself.

That is all.

Synthesis is the exact same thing.
In fact, technically synthesis would be closer to what Hitler wanted.

[arial]

DarthSliver wrote...

DistantUtopia wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

Well I look at it this way, we didnt go there to control the Reapers or mix our dna so we are all the same we went there to destroy them. We also didnt go there to hope the next cycle will do what we couldnt do and beat the Reapers. 

No argument there.  It's the fact that Refusal just makes the next cycle use the crucible again *cough*meta-gaming*cough* which makes Refusal feel like a slap in the face as a choice.

Again, it also depends on how you interpret your "Shepard".  My Shepard believes the Catalyst is giving false options; he has no reason to believe the words of the collective knowledge of the Reapers, the very beings he's trying to destroy. So for him, Refusal make sense.

Well the problem with that is I believe the Cruicable altered the Catalyst and allowed it to see more options to its Synthetic problem that begun the Cycles in the first place. I dont quite remember what it saids when it starts talking but I am sure i remember it saying it got Altered in some shape or form when the Cruicable docked with the Citadel.

he did say this

Exact words: "The Crucible changed me. Created new.. possibilities. but I cant make them happen"

2:45: 
 

[Xeranx]

EsterCloat wrote...

arial wrote...

EsterCloat wrote...

arial wrote...

Joe Del Toro wrote...

I'm a Refuser, and I appreciate this line of thought, OP. I just hate the arbitrary penalty of 'woops Geth dead now lol' because I dare to actually kill the Reapers. I refuse to partake in that.

so you would Sacrifice every living thing instead of just one species?

please, pleeaase do not go into politics

Because that's totally a scenario politicians go through on a day to day basis. Picking explosion colors from literal deus ex machinas.

no, Politicians have to make tough choices, knowing that no matter what they decide, someone, somewhere is going to get hurt by it.

If all Politicians just stopped doing there job because they did not want to harm a single portion of their nation, the world would immediately fall into Chaos

You cannot compare budget reports and international diplomacy with having one man being forced in the span of five minutes to choose the future of all life that will ever be in our galaxy. You cannot compare taking funding away from one sector of our economy with the genocide of an entire race, the continuation of abominations millions of years old, or the complete and utter rewriting of all life that currently does and will ever live.

Do you know what the complete ramifications are of the atom bomb dropped on both Hiroshima and Nagasaki?  The dropping of those bombs was the result of either one or a few people.  Either is significantly less than the population affected.  Who knows what the real fallout is.

[lillitheris]

KingZayd wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Rhiens VI wrote...

ElementL09 wrote...

I find it hilarious that the Catalyst even gave me the option to blow him and the Reapers up.

I suggest you think about it. Maybe you'll understand.

OP, I'm with you.

Don't be a coward, just shoot the tube.

There is no logical reason for the Starchild to give you that destroy option unless either it doesn't destroy the Reapers, or it's convinced you won't pick destroy.

That’s why it didn’t…it’s just sadly programmed to divulge all information about the hardware configuration of the Crucible dock. The only options it offers you are Synthesis and Control…its clever little diverter is preventing the Crucible from firing and performing its mission…

Just shoot the tube, and the Crucible will work as intended.

Like when it tells you the Crucible is "little more than a power source"?

Exactly. Source of power to destroy the Reapers.

[The Genophage]

arial wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

DistantUtopia wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

Well I look at it this way, we didnt go there to control the Reapers or mix our dna so we are all the same we went there to destroy them. We also didnt go there to hope the next cycle will do what we couldnt do and beat the Reapers. 

No argument there.  It's the fact that Refusal just makes the next cycle use the crucible again *cough*meta-gaming*cough* which makes Refusal feel like a slap in the face as a choice.

Again, it also depends on how you interpret your "Shepard".  My Shepard believes the Catalyst is giving false options; he has no reason to believe the words of the collective knowledge of the Reapers, the very beings he's trying to destroy. So for him, Refusal make sense.

Well the problem with that is I believe the Cruicable altered the Catalyst and allowed it to see more options to its Synthetic problem that begun the Cycles in the first place. I dont quite remember what it saids when it starts talking but I am sure i remember it saying it got Altered in some shape or form when the Cruicable docked with the Citadel.

he did say this

Exact words: "The Crucible changed me. Created new.. possibilities. but I cant make them happen"

2:45: 
 

He also said Destroy would kill you and makes many absurds analogies.

[jeff359]

Without knowing how the endings work out why would you believe the reapers that the destroy reaper button is just over there and you can shoot it if you'd like.

[arial]

The Genophage wrote...

arial wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

DistantUtopia wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

Well I look at it this way, we didnt go there to control the Reapers or mix our dna so we are all the same we went there to destroy them. We also didnt go there to hope the next cycle will do what we couldnt do and beat the Reapers. 

No argument there.  It's the fact that Refusal just makes the next cycle use the crucible again *cough*meta-gaming*cough* which makes Refusal feel like a slap in the face as a choice.

Again, it also depends on how you interpret your "Shepard".  My Shepard believes the Catalyst is giving false options; he has no reason to believe the words of the collective knowledge of the Reapers, the very beings he's trying to destroy. So for him, Refusal make sense.

Well the problem with that is I believe the Cruicable altered the Catalyst and allowed it to see more options to its Synthetic problem that begun the Cycles in the first place. I dont quite remember what it saids when it starts talking but I am sure i remember it saying it got Altered in some shape or form when the Cruicable docked with the Citadel.

he did say this

Exact words: "The Crucible changed me. Created new.. possibilities. but I cant make them happen"

2:45: 
 

He also said Destroy would kill you and makes many absurds analogies.

he did not say Destroy would kill you he said "even you are part Synthetic, can you imagine your life without them?"

you are now just makin things up

[KingZayd]

lillitheris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Rhiens VI wrote...

ElementL09 wrote...

I find it hilarious that the Catalyst even gave me the option to blow him and the Reapers up.

I suggest you think about it. Maybe you'll understand.

OP, I'm with you.

Don't be a coward, just shoot the tube.

There is no logical reason for the Starchild to give you that destroy option unless either it doesn't destroy the Reapers, or it's convinced you won't pick destroy.

That’s why it didn’t…it’s just sadly programmed to divulge all information about the hardware configuration of the Crucible dock. The only options it offers you are Synthesis and Control…its clever little diverter is preventing the Crucible from firing and performing its mission…

Just shoot the tube, and the Crucible will work as intended.

Like when it tells you the Crucible is "little more than a power source"?

Exactly. Source of power to destroy the Reapers.

Giving the Citadel the extra power required for destroying the Reapers. Doesn't explain why the Starchild lets you.
If the Crucible is the means of Reaper destruction rather than just the "battery", then the Starchild is lying.

[arial]

jeff359 wrote...

Without knowing how the endings work out why would you believe the reapers that the destroy reaper button is just over there and you can shoot it if you'd like.

because the Crucible altered Catalysts programming

[lillitheris]

KingZayd wrote...

Giving the Citadel the extra power required for destroying the Reapers. Doesn't explain why the Starchild lets you.
If the Crucible is the means of Reaper destruction rather than just the "battery", then the Starchild is lying.

There’s a bit in its programming where it is required to seek alternatives when an organic life form succeeds in penetrating the inner sanctum of the Citadel.

The Crucible is built as a weapon…one that can attach into the Citadel, because they know it can be used to disperse the effect throughout the relay network. So, yeah, the Crucible is full of purely destructive energy, unless modulated.

Modifié par lillitheris, 04 juillet 2012 - 08:15 .

[The Genophage]

arial wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

arial wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

DistantUtopia wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

Well I look at it this way, we didnt go there to control the Reapers or mix our dna so we are all the same we went there to destroy them. We also didnt go there to hope the next cycle will do what we couldnt do and beat the Reapers. 

No argument there.  It's the fact that Refusal just makes the next cycle use the crucible again *cough*meta-gaming*cough* which makes Refusal feel like a slap in the face as a choice.

Again, it also depends on how you interpret your "Shepard".  My Shepard believes the Catalyst is giving false options; he has no reason to believe the words of the collective knowledge of the Reapers, the very beings he's trying to destroy. So for him, Refusal make sense.

Well the problem with that is I believe the Cruicable altered the Catalyst and allowed it to see more options to its Synthetic problem that begun the Cycles in the first place. I dont quite remember what it saids when it starts talking but I am sure i remember it saying it got Altered in some shape or form when the Cruicable docked with the Citadel.

he did say this

Exact words: "The Crucible changed me. Created new.. possibilities. but I cant make them happen"

2:45: 
 

He also said Destroy would kill you and makes many absurds analogies.

he did not say Destroy would kill you he said "even you are part Synthetic, can you imagine your life without them?"

you are now just makin things up

He says it will kill all synthentics, even you are partly synthetics, it will not discrinimate. Do you need a link?

[wantedman dan]

Did Catwoman hack OP's account?

[KingZayd]

lillitheris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Giving the Citadel the extra power required for destroying the Reapers. Doesn't explain why the Starchild lets you.
If the Crucible is the means of Reaper destruction rather than just the "battery", then the Starchild is lying.

There’s a bit in its programming where it is required to seek alternatives when an organic life form succeeds in penetrating the inner sanctum of the Citadel.

The Crucible is built as a weapon…one that can attach into the Citadel, because they know it can be used to disperse the effect throughout the relay network. So, yeah, the Crucible is full of purely destructive energy, unless modulated.

So the Starchild is being dishonest?

[lillitheris]

KingZayd wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Giving the Citadel the extra power required for destroying the Reapers. Doesn't explain why the Starchild lets you.
If the Crucible is the means of Reaper destruction rather than just the "battery", then the Starchild is lying.

There’s a bit in its programming where it is required to seek alternatives when an organic life form succeeds in penetrating the inner sanctum of the Citadel.

The Crucible is built as a weapon…one that can attach into the Citadel, because they know it can be used to disperse the effect throughout the relay network. So, yeah, the Crucible is full of purely destructive energy, unless modulated.

So the Starchild is being dishonest?

It’s being imprecise.

[arial]

The Genophage wrote...

arial wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

arial wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

DistantUtopia wrote...

DarthSliver wrote...

Well I look at it this way, we didnt go there to control the Reapers or mix our dna so we are all the same we went there to destroy them. We also didnt go there to hope the next cycle will do what we couldnt do and beat the Reapers. 

No argument there.  It's the fact that Refusal just makes the next cycle use the crucible again *cough*meta-gaming*cough* which makes Refusal feel like a slap in the face as a choice.

Again, it also depends on how you interpret your "Shepard".  My Shepard believes the Catalyst is giving false options; he has no reason to believe the words of the collective knowledge of the Reapers, the very beings he's trying to destroy. So for him, Refusal make sense.

Well the problem with that is I believe the Cruicable altered the Catalyst and allowed it to see more options to its Synthetic problem that begun the Cycles in the first place. I dont quite remember what it saids when it starts talking but I am sure i remember it saying it got Altered in some shape or form when the Cruicable docked with the Citadel.

he did say this

Exact words: "The Crucible changed me. Created new.. possibilities. but I cant make them happen"

2:45: 
 

He also said Destroy would kill you and makes many absurds analogies.

he did not say Destroy would kill you he said "even you are part Synthetic, can you imagine your life without them?"

you are now just makin things up

He says it will kill all synthentics, even you are partly synthetics, it will not discrinimate. Do you need a link?

yes "Partly" synthetic, that does not mean youll die, you will be "affected". you are Also Organic

[The Genophage]

@Arial

Shepard lives on synthetic implants, so how is he alive?