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[ghost9191]

The Genophage wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

@Ghost9191

So let me get this straight. Its bad to refuse your enemy, fight them off, and die without committing atrocities.
But its good to trust your enemy, commit and atrocity, and live under the catalyst genocidal brain.

ok this is why i said read my post carefully.     i never said it was good, i sad it was bad also. but refusal is bad too is all i am saying, all options are terrible.      unless they make it that you can achieve victory in refusal. but going in you should know that there is no way to win without using the crucible. By going with refuse you do cause deaths

you let the cycle happen, that is evil in it's own way , more so then genocide because in destroy their death is not pointless. the geth are destroyed to save the many, along with shep

I didn't deliberately or systematically kill anyone, so how is it genocide?

we are back on this

ok for destroy i say the geth are a casualty of war, you say the same for refusal. the difference is that it is ony the geth i am sacrificing in destroy , whereas around 14 other races will be sacrificed in refusal by  your inactions, you deliberately choose refuse knowing that by doing so you will doing it at the cost of millions of lives. even if you win

in destroy shepard will be considered a hero. evidence being the soundtrack. in refusal ppl won't see you  taking a great moral stand , just costing this cycle.

i am just saying that refusal is as much an act of genocide as destroy.  i see destroy as genocide but also a sacrifice of the geth so that many more can live. 1.5billion die over there so 1trillion can live over here

shep says it best " Yes, people will die. Maybe we'll lose half the galaxy. maybe more. but i will do whatever it takes to rid the galxy of the reaper threat"

[SMichelle]

wantedman dan wrote...

SMichelle wrote...

Err.  Yes, but *your* cycle lost.  All of those organic and synthetic beings were sacrificed because you weren't willing to pay a price.  So, how many trillions of people did your inaction doom?

But at least your hands are "clean"... 

Err, why must life revolve around me, mine, and ours? Concentrating on only yourself and yours is rather selfish, don't you think?

Yup.  My Shepard wants to save "her" cycle.  She thinks the galaxy won't be as wonderous a place once all of the life she knows is destroyed.   I like Humans, Turians, Krogan etc. and I think they're worth saving.

[The Genophage]

ghost9191 wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

@Ghost9191

So let me get this straight. Its bad to refuse your enemy, fight them off, and die without committing atrocities.
But its good to trust your enemy, commit and atrocity, and live under the catalyst genocidal brain.

ok this is why i said read my post carefully.     i never said it was good, i sad it was bad also. but refusal is bad too is all i am saying, all options are terrible.      unless they make it that you can achieve victory in refusal. but going in you should know that there is no way to win without using the crucible. By going with refuse you do cause deaths

you let the cycle happen, that is evil in it's own way , more so then genocide because in destroy their death is not pointless. the geth are destroyed to save the many, along with shep

I didn't deliberately or systematically kill anyone, so how is it genocide?

we are back on this

ok for destroy i say the geth are a casualty of war, you say the same for refusal. the difference is that it is ony the geth i am sacrificing in destroy , whereas around 14 other races will be sacrificed in refusal by  your inactions, you deliberately choose refuse knowing that by doing so you will doing it at the cost of millions of lives. even if you win

in destroy shepard will be considered a hero. evidence being the soundtrack. in refusal ppl won't see you  taking a great moral stand , just costing this cycle.

i am just saying that refusal is as much an act of genocide as destroy.  i see destroy as genocide but also a sacrifice of the geth so that many more can live. 1.5billion die over there so 1trillion can live over here

shep says it best " Yes, people will die. Maybe we'll lose half the galaxy. maybe more. but i will do whatever it takes to rid the galxy of the reaper threat"

First, the anology doesn't fit in with this topic because he never said "maybe we will commit genocide". Again, by choosing destroy you deliberately and systematically kill the Geth, the definition of Genocide, in refuse you don't deliberately and systematically kill the geth, what don't you understand?

[ghost9191]

yes which is why i go with destroy, i mean refusal gives the next cycle the ability to beat the reapers but at the cost of ours. i would rather save ours. and just remember this, if the geth were destroyed on rannoch then well , it isn't really genocide

[The Genophage]

arial wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

@Ghost9191

So let me get this straight. Its bad to refuse your enemy, fight them off, and die without committing atrocities.
But its good to trust your enemy, commit and atrocity, and live under the catalyst genocidal brain.

ok this is why i said read my post carefully.     i never said it was good, i sad it was bad also. but refusal is bad too is all i am saying, all options are terrible.      unless they make it that you can achieve victory in refusal. but going in you should know that there is no way to win without using the crucible. By going with refuse you do cause deaths

you let the cycle happen, that is evil in it's own way , more so then genocide because in destroy their death is not pointless. the geth are destroyed to save the many, along with shep

I didn't deliberately or systematically kill anyone, so how is it genocide?

because, by not stopping the Reapers you are just as responsible for everyone they kill as they are.

seriously, its not just a Canadian law, most Commonwealth countries share it, but i will state it again

If you have the chance to prevent a crime and do not, you are just as responsible as the individual who commited the crime

Unless you meta-game, you can't possibly know the catalyst is telling the truth. If it a drunken man comes up to me and tells me to click this button or the world will die, and I don't, does that mean I'm responsible for the genocide, no. Also, Refusal is not doing nothing, you continue to fight but loss.

[ghost9191]

The Genophage wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

@Ghost9191

So let me get this straight. Its bad to refuse your enemy, fight them off, and die without committing atrocities.
But its good to trust your enemy, commit and atrocity, and live under the catalyst genocidal brain.

ok this is why i said read my post carefully.     i never said it was good, i sad it was bad also. but refusal is bad too is all i am saying, all options are terrible.      unless they make it that you can achieve victory in refusal. but going in you should know that there is no way to win without using the crucible. By going with refuse you do cause deaths

you let the cycle happen, that is evil in it's own way , more so then genocide because in destroy their death is not pointless. the geth are destroyed to save the many, along with shep

I didn't deliberately or systematically kill anyone, so how is it genocide?

we are back on this

ok for destroy i say the geth are a casualty of war, you say the same for refusal. the difference is that it is ony the geth i am sacrificing in destroy , whereas around 14 other races will be sacrificed in refusal by  your inactions, you deliberately choose refuse knowing that by doing so you will doing it at the cost of millions of lives. even if you win

in destroy shepard will be considered a hero. evidence being the soundtrack. in refusal ppl won't see you  taking a great moral stand , just costing this cycle.

i am just saying that refusal is as much an act of genocide as destroy.  i see destroy as genocide but also a sacrifice of the geth so that many more can live. 1.5billion die over there so 1trillion can live over here

shep says it best " Yes, people will die. Maybe we'll lose half the galaxy. maybe more. but i will do whatever it takes to rid the galxy of the reaper threat"

First, the anology doesn't fit in with this topic because he never said "maybe we will commit genocide". Again, by choosing destroy you deliberately and systematically kill the Geth, the definition of Genocide, in refuse you don't deliberately and systematically kill the geth, what don't you understand?

i could ask the same damn thing seeing as we already went over this topic. it depends on where your at and what your opinion is. i think that sitting back and letting something happen when you have the ability to stop it is just as bad as those who do it

i wipe out the geth, yes but by your inactions you get the whole galaxy harvested. and it is your inactions, or actions which if you say actions then it is deliberate , so again just my opinion and why i don't go with refuse

in the moment i see 4 choices. the safer one is destroy, it ends the reaper threat. refuse does the same but at the cost of our cycle. whereas destroy ends it at the cost of the geth. hate doing it but that is the right option to me. not saying it is right , and i feel bad for doing it. thats why i come on these forums to discuss the ending.. but it is something that had to be done

[Father_Jerusalem]

ITT: People arguing that committing one genocide makes you a morally corrupt evil monster, while arguing that assisting in thirteen+ genocides is morally right and makes you a savior.

I have disagreed several times with the OP on the original endings, but in this I can fully state that she(?) is correct in everything that is being said. The Catalyst is quite obviously steering you towards it's preferred choice, Synthesis. By choosing Destroy you are, in fact, denying his solution.

Is what happens to the Geth in destroy a tragedy? Of course. But how is allowing the Geth to die morally worse than allowing ALL ADVANCED LIFE IN THE GALAXY to die?

It, quite simply, boils down to a numbers game. And the numbers clearly state that Destroy >>>>>>>>>>>>> Refuse.

[arial]

The Genophage wrote...

arial wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

@Ghost9191

So let me get this straight. Its bad to refuse your enemy, fight them off, and die without committing atrocities.
But its good to trust your enemy, commit and atrocity, and live under the catalyst genocidal brain.

ok this is why i said read my post carefully.     i never said it was good, i sad it was bad also. but refusal is bad too is all i am saying, all options are terrible.      unless they make it that you can achieve victory in refusal. but going in you should know that there is no way to win without using the crucible. By going with refuse you do cause deaths

you let the cycle happen, that is evil in it's own way , more so then genocide because in destroy their death is not pointless. the geth are destroyed to save the many, along with shep

I didn't deliberately or systematically kill anyone, so how is it genocide?

because, by not stopping the Reapers you are just as responsible for everyone they kill as they are.

seriously, its not just a Canadian law, most Commonwealth countries share it, but i will state it again

If you have the chance to prevent a crime and do not, you are just as responsible as the individual who commited the crime

Unless you meta-game, you can't possibly know the catalyst is telling the truth. If it a drunken man comes up to me and tells me to click this button or the world will die, and I don't, does that mean I'm responsible for the genocide, no. Also, Refusal is not doing nothing, you continue to fight but loss.

but you know the only way to wipe out the Reapers is the crucible, and that they can not be defeated coventionally, therefore refusal is doing nothing

[Father_Jerusalem]

The Genophage wrote...

Unless you meta-game, you can't possibly know the catalyst is telling the truth. If it a drunken man comes up to me and tells me to click this button or the world will die, and I don't, does that mean I'm responsible for the genocide, no. Also, Refusal is not doing nothing, you continue to fight but loss.

The difference is that the drunken man doesn't have an armada of Reapers that are exterminating organic life at a rate of billions a day, the most technologically advanced ships the galaxy has ever seen, and numbers that will blot out the sun. 

Other than those minor MINOR differences, though, I can totally see how your analogy is completely accurate.

[The Genophage]

arial wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

arial wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

@Ghost9191

So let me get this straight. Its bad to refuse your enemy, fight them off, and die without committing atrocities.
But its good to trust your enemy, commit and atrocity, and live under the catalyst genocidal brain.

ok this is why i said read my post carefully.     i never said it was good, i sad it was bad also. but refusal is bad too is all i am saying, all options are terrible.      unless they make it that you can achieve victory in refusal. but going in you should know that there is no way to win without using the crucible. By going with refuse you do cause deaths

you let the cycle happen, that is evil in it's own way , more so then genocide because in destroy their death is not pointless. the geth are destroyed to save the many, along with shep

I didn't deliberately or systematically kill anyone, so how is it genocide?

because, by not stopping the Reapers you are just as responsible for everyone they kill as they are.

seriously, its not just a Canadian law, most Commonwealth countries share it, but i will state it again

If you have the chance to prevent a crime and do not, you are just as responsible as the individual who commited the crime

Unless you meta-game, you can't possibly know the catalyst is telling the truth. If it a drunken man comes up to me and tells me to click this button or the world will die, and I don't, does that mean I'm responsible for the genocide, no. Also, Refusal is not doing nothing, you continue to fight but loss.

but you know the only way to wipe out the Reapers is the crucible, and that they can not be defeated coventionally, therefore refusal is doing nothing

For all you I knew, the crucible was a doomed choice, so is it so wrong to try to take a chance with your allies instead of taking a chance with your enemy?

[The Genophage]

ghost9191 wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

@Ghost9191

So let me get this straight. Its bad to refuse your enemy, fight them off, and die without committing atrocities.
But its good to trust your enemy, commit and atrocity, and live under the catalyst genocidal brain.

ok this is why i said read my post carefully.     i never said it was good, i sad it was bad also. but refusal is bad too is all i am saying, all options are terrible.      unless they make it that you can achieve victory in refusal. but going in you should know that there is no way to win without using the crucible. By going with refuse you do cause deaths

you let the cycle happen, that is evil in it's own way , more so then genocide because in destroy their death is not pointless. the geth are destroyed to save the many, along with shep

I didn't deliberately or systematically kill anyone, so how is it genocide?

we are back on this

ok for destroy i say the geth are a casualty of war, you say the same for refusal. the difference is that it is ony the geth i am sacrificing in destroy , whereas around 14 other races will be sacrificed in refusal by  your inactions, you deliberately choose refuse knowing that by doing so you will doing it at the cost of millions of lives. even if you win

in destroy shepard will be considered a hero. evidence being the soundtrack. in refusal ppl won't see you  taking a great moral stand , just costing this cycle.

i am just saying that refusal is as much an act of genocide as destroy.  i see destroy as genocide but also a sacrifice of the geth so that many more can live. 1.5billion die over there so 1trillion can live over here

shep says it best " Yes, people will die. Maybe we'll lose half the galaxy. maybe more. but i will do whatever it takes to rid the galxy of the reaper threat"

First, the anology doesn't fit in with this topic because he never said "maybe we will commit genocide". Again, by choosing destroy you deliberately and systematically kill the Geth, the definition of Genocide, in refuse you don't deliberately and systematically kill the geth, what don't you understand?

i could ask the same damn thing seeing as we already went over this topic. it depends on where your at and what your opinion is. i think that sitting back and letting something happen when you have the ability to stop it is just as bad as those who do it

i wipe out the geth, yes but by your inactions you get the whole galaxy harvested. and it is your inactions, or actions which if you say actions then it is deliberate , so again just my opinion and why i don't go with refuse

in the moment i see 4 choices. the safer one is destroy, it ends the reaper threat. refuse does the same but at the cost of our cycle. whereas destroy ends it at the cost of the geth. hate doing it but that is the right option to me. not saying it is right , and i feel bad for doing it. thats why i come on these forums to discuss the ending.. but it is something that had to be done

Inactions does not fit the term genocide, end of story.

[The Genophage]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

Unless you meta-game, you can't possibly know the catalyst is telling the truth. If it a drunken man comes up to me and tells me to click this button or the world will die, and I don't, does that mean I'm responsible for the genocide, no. Also, Refusal is not doing nothing, you continue to fight but loss.

The difference is that the drunken man doesn't have an armada of Reapers that are exterminating organic life at a rate of billions a day, the most technologically advanced ships the galaxy has ever seen, and numbers that will blot out the sun. 

Other than those minor MINOR differences, though, I can totally see how your analogy is completely accurate.

You get the point, don't act obtuse.

[babachewie]

Genocide is worth the cost

[arial]

The Genophage wrote...

arial wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

arial wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

@Ghost9191

So let me get this straight. Its bad to refuse your enemy, fight them off, and die without committing atrocities.
But its good to trust your enemy, commit and atrocity, and live under the catalyst genocidal brain.

ok this is why i said read my post carefully.     i never said it was good, i sad it was bad also. but refusal is bad too is all i am saying, all options are terrible.      unless they make it that you can achieve victory in refusal. but going in you should know that there is no way to win without using the crucible. By going with refuse you do cause deaths

you let the cycle happen, that is evil in it's own way , more so then genocide because in destroy their death is not pointless. the geth are destroyed to save the many, along with shep

I didn't deliberately or systematically kill anyone, so how is it genocide?

because, by not stopping the Reapers you are just as responsible for everyone they kill as they are.

seriously, its not just a Canadian law, most Commonwealth countries share it, but i will state it again

If you have the chance to prevent a crime and do not, you are just as responsible as the individual who commited the crime

Unless you meta-game, you can't possibly know the catalyst is telling the truth. If it a drunken man comes up to me and tells me to click this button or the world will die, and I don't, does that mean I'm responsible for the genocide, no. Also, Refusal is not doing nothing, you continue to fight but loss.

but you know the only way to wipe out the Reapers is the crucible, and that they can not be defeated coventionally, therefore refusal is doing nothing

For all you I knew, the crucible was a doomed choice, so is it so wrong to try to take a chance with your allies instead of taking a chance with your enemy?

conventional combat is not a choice, its an insane move

it takes what, 4 Dreadnoughts to down a Sovereign class Reaper? and there are thousnads of Soveriengn class repears, we do not have enough Dreadnoughts to take em out, or enough smaller ships to match the power of a dreadnought. not to mention the Reapers also have Destroyers and Occuli(SP?).

the galaxy would have to have 100x its current combat strength to even stand half a chance against thge Reapers

Modifié par arial, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:03 .

[ghost9191]

@The Genophage

as long as you got that i was defending your opening and only voicing ( through text ) mine i am fine with it

Modifié par ghost9191, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:02 .

[D24O]

babachewie wrote...

Genocide is worth the cost

Wow, I can't believe that I'm reading this.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

wantedman dan wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

I sincerely hope you don’t think your statement comes off as profound or knowledgeable. That’d just be sad.

You should at least own the horror you create instead of trying to handwave your way around it. You could have saved most people, but chose not to. You killed them. You killed everyone.

Oh, I do realize that. Your assumption belies your argument.

And you committed an atrocity to secure a less-than-victory. Are you happy about that?

And you snatched total defeat from the jaws of victory. Are you happy about that?

You do know this: If you choose not to make a choice you are still making a choice.

Admiral Hackett committed the entire Sword Fleet to this one battle. They were getting their asses handed to them. At best they were holding ground. You're fighting in a war where your enemy creates troops out of your own population. You enemy does not fight by your rules. Your enemy is totally and utterly ruthless and will not stop until every last one of you is irradicated. They've been doing this for over a billion years and through 20,000 cycles and have gotten very goddamned good at it.

You are not prepared to fight a war like this. You are going to lose. Period.

You condemn hundreds of billions to certain death for the sake of maybe 10 billion, including the 10 billion that would be sacrificed.

When it's over ask the hundreds of billions of dead souls if in this situation morality mattered. Their silence is your answer.

And remember you already committed genocide by killing 300,000 Batarians to stop a reaper invasion, but all you did was delay them from hitting earth. They cleaned out the Batarian systems. "Oh, but I tried to warn them!" you say. Like 20 minutes warning could make a difference in evacuating that many people. Right. Now suddenly Shepard grows a conscience?

This may not be a decisive victory. This may only be a tactical victory. It is still the end of the reapers and the end of the Starbrat. Those who are still alive and who have loved ones remaining get to live on and rebuild whereas in refusal they would have either been made into abominations or squished into reaper goop or indoctrinated and left to starve to death.

[ghost9191]

which is why the only way i will pick refusal is if through mp operations and dlc we acquire something that gives us the upper hand and ability to win conventionally , because then the cost would probably be less then the geth,. but until then the cost is less with destroy in my eyes

[babachewie]

D24O wrote...

babachewie wrote...

Genocide is worth the cost

Wow, I can't believe that I'm reading this.

You can beleive whatever you want. One species isnt worth entire galaxy. 

Modifié par babachewie, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:05 .

[The Genophage]

@Arial

Yeah, and believing and trusting the enemy that has killed millions is not an insane move at all

[saracen16]

Joe Del Toro wrote...

I'm a Refuser, and I appreciate this line of thought, OP. I just hate the arbitrary penalty of 'woops Geth dead now lol' because I dare to actually kill the Reapers. I refuse to partake in that.

It would only be arbitrary if the Geth could be replaced by any other race such as the Quarians. However, the Geth, like the Reapers, EDI, and Shepard, are (partly) synthetic. Destroying the Reapers means destroying all synthetics. There is nothing arbitrary about that.

Modifié par saracen16, 04 juillet 2012 - 10:06 .

[The Genophage]

D24O wrote...

babachewie wrote...

Genocide is worth the cost

Wow, I can't believe that I'm reading this.

Some people honestly think that breathing is the only thing that matters, im saying that figuratively of course.

[Father_Jerusalem]

The Genophage wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

The Genophage wrote...

Unless you meta-game, you can't possibly know the catalyst is telling the truth. If it a drunken man comes up to me and tells me to click this button or the world will die, and I don't, does that mean I'm responsible for the genocide, no. Also, Refusal is not doing nothing, you continue to fight but loss.

The difference is that the drunken man doesn't have an armada of Reapers that are exterminating organic life at a rate of billions a day, the most technologically advanced ships the galaxy has ever seen, and numbers that will blot out the sun. 

Other than those minor MINOR differences, though, I can totally see how your analogy is completely accurate.

You get the point, don't act obtuse.

I don't get the point. Your analogy has literally NOTHING to do with what's going on in the actual game.

How do I know that the Catalyst is telling the truth? I don't. But by doing nothing, what I do know is that we'll LOSE. So I take the chance that it is and make a leap of faith knowing that, if he is lying, then... it can't get any worse.

I also know that the Catalyst has no logical reason to lie to me - it brought me to it because it knew that its solution wasn't going to work anymore. If it had wanted to just sneer at me and try to show me that the Reapers are eternal and we have no chance at beating them, all it had to do was hang out and watch me bleed out next to Anderson.

[The Genophage]

@Ghost9191.

No, you fail to understand the definition of Genocide, and keep accusing me of Genocide when I clearly explained the difference, therefore I'm done arguing with nonsense.

[arial]

The Genophage wrote...

@Arial

Yeah, and believing and trusting the enemy that has killed millions is not an insane move at all

like Catalyst said, the crucible altered it, thats why it realized its solution was no longer valid and told you how to stop them.

if you are gonna play the "what if hes lieing" card then i will counter with "then just watch the cinimatic, obviously not lieing"