I wouldnt have much of a problem with it if i had a q of actions my characters perform (KotOR) but the abscence of it feels like it was deliberate so we would have to use tactics. There is a lot of cool things you can set up but i would rather be ordering almost all of my party members actions.
Why i hate tactics: Id rather play the games than tell the game how to play itself
Débuté par
AntiChri5
, déc. 16 2009 12:17
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#2
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 12:23
Invalidcode
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I take it you want to be able to queue actions?
They had queue actions while the game was still in development, it interferes with the game play too much and they took it out.
DA:O isn't round by round so not that they don't want queue, but they can't.
They had queue actions while the game was still in development, it interferes with the game play too much and they took it out.
DA:O isn't round by round so not that they don't want queue, but they can't.
#3
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 12:29
AntiChri5
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Invalidcode wrote...
I take it you want to be able to queue actions?
They had queue actions while the game was still in development, it interferes with the game play too much and they took it out.
DA:O isn't round by round so not that they don't want queue, but they can't.
I guess i can accept that...sorta...i don't see why you cant have a queue without a turn based system, but if Bioware says so...
#4
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 12:34
Sylvius the Mad
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I don't see why you wouldn't just design an underlying turn system where the length of each turn was determined by what you were doing right then. It would be imperceptible to the player, and thus solve the queuing problem.
I don't see why you need turns, but if you do there's a suggestion.
Without turns, just have the game check for an extant queue whenever an uncontrolled character finishes an action: if there is, follow the next item; if there isn't, activate the AI.
Some queues would be a no-brainer. Cast sleep here, and then immediately after than cast Horror on this particular mob. The tactics can't do that - it will pick a sleeping target according to some sleeping forumla, so if I have two mages to cast Horror they might target the same mob. Queues would prevent that.
I'd also have knockdowns or stun effects automatically clear the queue, so you don't end up with characters performing actions long after they're relevant.
I don't see why you need turns, but if you do there's a suggestion.
Without turns, just have the game check for an extant queue whenever an uncontrolled character finishes an action: if there is, follow the next item; if there isn't, activate the AI.
Some queues would be a no-brainer. Cast sleep here, and then immediately after than cast Horror on this particular mob. The tactics can't do that - it will pick a sleeping target according to some sleeping forumla, so if I have two mages to cast Horror they might target the same mob. Queues would prevent that.
I'd also have knockdowns or stun effects automatically clear the queue, so you don't end up with characters performing actions long after they're relevant.
Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 16 décembre 2009 - 12:37 .
#5
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 12:40
tetracycloide
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I wouldn't mind not having a turn based que nearly as much if only the tactics algorithms were more robust. There's no way to add a tactic to use AoE without friendly fire without using up every tactics slot to check the location of allies? There's absolutely no way to add a tactic to revive fallen party members? Even with max tactics there's only enough slots to make a handful of skills with multiple requirements and those don't work right since the system can, and often does, just skip to the end. What's the point of a group heal if i have to use one line to check the health of every party member and the AI just skips all the checks and heals whenever the last person in the tactic is at the requisite health level? It shouldn't take 4 tactics slots to create a group heal condition that only works right 1/3rd of the time.
#6
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 12:55
brelrande
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I like the tactics involved with the tactic system. beats queuing up a bunch of attacks and sitting back and wait for it to end, I enjoy having to keep each party doing specific things and changing there tactics based on the situation at hand, queuing to me feels to mindless, no offense of course just not for me.
#7
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 12:57
AntiChri5
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brelrande wrote...
I like the tactics involved with the tactic system. beats queuing up a bunch of attacks and sitting back and wait for it to end, I enjoy having to keep each party doing specific things and changing there tactics based on the situation at hand, queuing to me feels to mindless, no offense of course just not for me.
To each his own. Maybe i just never truly got over KotOR
#8
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 12:58
Dark83
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#9
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 01:03
brelrande
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Your probably right haha - console player here, i have heard a lot of great things from the PC version, although i have a MAC so not sure if there is even a version for me:blink:Dark83 wrote...
This is why PC > Console. Mods. 25 Tactic Slots and Advanced Tactics are your friends.
#10
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 01:11
AntiChri5
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brelrande wrote...
Your probably right haha - console player here, i have heard a lot of great things from the PC version, although i have a MAC so not sure if there is even a version for me:blink:Dark83 wrote...
This is why PC > Console. Mods. 25 Tactic Slots and Advanced Tactics are your friends.
Same. Except for the mac part
#11
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 01:55
RobotXYZ
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I play on a mac. I am using bootcamp to partition my hardrive into mac OS (leopard) and windows xp. I play the video games in xp mode. You do need to have a lot of power and a good graphics card still, however.
#12
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 03:28
Burito101
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Dark83 wrote...
This is why PC > Console. Mods. 25 Tactic Slots and Advanced Tactics are your friends.
Why would you need 25 tactics slots, I semm to get by fine with 8.
#13
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 04:02
Adria Teksuni
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As someone who sees combat as a nice break in between advancing the storyline, I can't say I've had too many problems with the tactics. But then, not every style of gameplay is for everyone.
Search the forums for tactics advice and see if that doesn't help you out. Like this thread:
http://social.biowar...c/9/index/98039
Search the forums for tactics advice and see if that doesn't help you out. Like this thread:
http://social.biowar...c/9/index/98039
#14
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 04:12
Deflagratio
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I don't know, I manage to get some pretty decent tactics off of the stock game. Any Friendly Fire AOE I'll use the Tacpause. But also I usually control the Mage in the party directly, and Melee/Tanks Don't really need 500,000 lines to do an action. To be perfectly honest, this is an example of, no matter how much we are given, we want more. And it seems that the more we get, the more it exacerbates the problem.
#15
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 04:19
Dasim4
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The tactics are lacking in some areas but that's where pausing comes in handy. Thankfully they did include the ability to manually control each character. Can you imagine how frustrating it would be if you had to rely solely on tactics to control your team? It would drive me crazy because they just make too many mistakes no matter how well I set up the tactics.
Modifié par Dasim4, 16 décembre 2009 - 04:20 .
#16
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 04:34
Solistus1
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I use the 25 slots and Advanced Tactics mods. It helps... But only so much.
I don't so much mind the _idea_ of a tactics interface, or even of limiting the number of commands based on a skill, but the way it's implemented is probably the worst part of this otherwise exceptional game. The whole one condition - one triggered action approach is so ludicrously oversimplified that very few tasks can be done in a logical way. If I want to autoheal any party member that drops below 50%, that's easy enough. If I want my casters to prioritise healing my tank, or to tell my Rogue to get back and use ranged attacks if she is taking too many hits so she doesn't waste heals, or even to tell her to pick targets that are focused on someone else and position herself to backstab (which is supposed to be a pretty fundamental aspect of the class), I had better disable tactics and pause every half second to micro all 4 party members. I don't mind doing that, but the lack of queues, useful multi-character selection and commands and the whole way tactics is implemented make it a pain to control exactly what everyone does at all times. I'm not one of those "OMG QQ I have to occasionally control more than one character in a party-based RPG" types, but if we are meant to micro *every* action, why go with a realtime combat system and Tactics system at all? To the extent that my allies use some type of combat AI, that AI should be effective.
I understand that it needs to be a system that the average gamer who isn't obsessed with party planning or AI management can wrap their heads around, but it could have been *slightly* more robust. Simply allowing multiple conditions and/or multiple sequential actions on a single tactics command would help enormously.
I could think of plenty of different arbitrary ways Tactics could be done better. Bottom line: if most spells in the game have NO logical tactics that can use them effectively, that's a problem. Forget about using tactics *at all* for things like AOE, crowd control, targeting priority, threat/aggro management, etc.
Maybe I'm spoiled, because I want to be able to run my DA:O party as tightly as I would run a WoW group - every class playing their role, using their skills efficiently, etc. With two PC-only mods, I've turned the Tactics system into something good enough to handle about half of my healbot needs and to automate a few tasks it's decent enough at, like telling my Mages to spam all their debuffs on bosses. It's fine that Tactics can't do everything, but it's annoying that what Tactics can and cannot do well seems to be a result of which commands actually work as expected and what types of tasks are more or less awkward to set up as a series of single condition, single response triggers. Maybe it's for "balance" that Tactics has no way to, say, auto target AOEs when they can be used to hit multiple enemies and no friendlies, but I'm pretty sure it's just sloppiness that I needed a mod to allow my healers to heal anyone below 50% with one tactic rather than needing a second one for 'Self' because, for some reason, Ally hp
All in all, while it's better than what a lot of games give us (either nothing at all or just the choice of a handful of preset AI options), the Tactics system screams of an implementation that failed to live up to the idea. If BioWare didn't *intend* Tactics to be "too good" at automating some types of combat tasks, they should make a clear statement as to what is and is not supposed to be easily achievable with tactics so we can start offering more constructive feedback on the system.
Also, add me to the list of people who fail to understand how a queue system would be problematic. The game doesn't need to be turn-based to keep a queue. It can tell when a character is done casting/using a talent. It could then automatically issue the next command. Look at real-time strategy games like Warcraft 3 for examples of fully real-time combat systems with skills that can take variable amounts of time and don't match up at all to any kind of turn structure, and yet manage to have command queues not just for 4 RPG heroes but for potentially thousands of independent units. I see no reason why queueing commands is at all dependent on a turn-based combat engine.
I don't so much mind the _idea_ of a tactics interface, or even of limiting the number of commands based on a skill, but the way it's implemented is probably the worst part of this otherwise exceptional game. The whole one condition - one triggered action approach is so ludicrously oversimplified that very few tasks can be done in a logical way. If I want to autoheal any party member that drops below 50%, that's easy enough. If I want my casters to prioritise healing my tank, or to tell my Rogue to get back and use ranged attacks if she is taking too many hits so she doesn't waste heals, or even to tell her to pick targets that are focused on someone else and position herself to backstab (which is supposed to be a pretty fundamental aspect of the class), I had better disable tactics and pause every half second to micro all 4 party members. I don't mind doing that, but the lack of queues, useful multi-character selection and commands and the whole way tactics is implemented make it a pain to control exactly what everyone does at all times. I'm not one of those "OMG QQ I have to occasionally control more than one character in a party-based RPG" types, but if we are meant to micro *every* action, why go with a realtime combat system and Tactics system at all? To the extent that my allies use some type of combat AI, that AI should be effective.
I understand that it needs to be a system that the average gamer who isn't obsessed with party planning or AI management can wrap their heads around, but it could have been *slightly* more robust. Simply allowing multiple conditions and/or multiple sequential actions on a single tactics command would help enormously.
I could think of plenty of different arbitrary ways Tactics could be done better. Bottom line: if most spells in the game have NO logical tactics that can use them effectively, that's a problem. Forget about using tactics *at all* for things like AOE, crowd control, targeting priority, threat/aggro management, etc.
Maybe I'm spoiled, because I want to be able to run my DA:O party as tightly as I would run a WoW group - every class playing their role, using their skills efficiently, etc. With two PC-only mods, I've turned the Tactics system into something good enough to handle about half of my healbot needs and to automate a few tasks it's decent enough at, like telling my Mages to spam all their debuffs on bosses. It's fine that Tactics can't do everything, but it's annoying that what Tactics can and cannot do well seems to be a result of which commands actually work as expected and what types of tasks are more or less awkward to set up as a series of single condition, single response triggers. Maybe it's for "balance" that Tactics has no way to, say, auto target AOEs when they can be used to hit multiple enemies and no friendlies, but I'm pretty sure it's just sloppiness that I needed a mod to allow my healers to heal anyone below 50% with one tactic rather than needing a second one for 'Self' because, for some reason, Ally hp
All in all, while it's better than what a lot of games give us (either nothing at all or just the choice of a handful of preset AI options), the Tactics system screams of an implementation that failed to live up to the idea. If BioWare didn't *intend* Tactics to be "too good" at automating some types of combat tasks, they should make a clear statement as to what is and is not supposed to be easily achievable with tactics so we can start offering more constructive feedback on the system.
Also, add me to the list of people who fail to understand how a queue system would be problematic. The game doesn't need to be turn-based to keep a queue. It can tell when a character is done casting/using a talent. It could then automatically issue the next command. Look at real-time strategy games like Warcraft 3 for examples of fully real-time combat systems with skills that can take variable amounts of time and don't match up at all to any kind of turn structure, and yet manage to have command queues not just for 4 RPG heroes but for potentially thousands of independent units. I see no reason why queueing commands is at all dependent on a turn-based combat engine.
Modifié par Solistus1, 16 décembre 2009 - 04:39 .
#17
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 05:39
Dark83
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It really depends on how willing you are to micromanage. I pretty much only control my main, and everybody's automated. Some of the most basic commands (like Revive the Dead) already take a slot. Having to set both Ally and Self for Heal and Group Heal is already 4 slots - with Advanced Tactics, it's 2.Burito101 wrote...
Dark83 wrote...
This is why PC > Console. Mods. 25 Tactic Slots and Advanced Tactics are your friends.
Why would you need 25 tactics slots, I semm to get by fine with 8.
#18
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 05:45
hankmurphy
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i turn off all tactics except emergency heals. space bar works fine for me.
#20
Posté 16 décembre 2009 - 09:17
Gecon
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I have no problems to automatize what can be automatized.
My Bard should always sing the regen song.
My Tank should always have Threaten and Shield wall up and use Taunt if more than one opponent is around him.
My Healer should always heal people if they fall below a certain health threshold.
However, everything beyond a certain point is very fast not desireable. Yeah I have no trouble if my mages and tanks throw away their mana and stamina for attacks. But if the situation is dire, they should not. Thats why I dont automatize such things.
My Bard should always sing the regen song.
My Tank should always have Threaten and Shield wall up and use Taunt if more than one opponent is around him.
My Healer should always heal people if they fall below a certain health threshold.
However, everything beyond a certain point is very fast not desireable. Yeah I have no trouble if my mages and tanks throw away their mana and stamina for attacks. But if the situation is dire, they should not. Thats why I dont automatize such things.
