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#26
Thomas Abram

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DarkerCompanion wrote...

What kind of effort is being made to fix the methods through which the cheating is being accomplished? Banning people works in the short term, but fixing the bugs in the first place is a much better solution. Is there anything you can share with us about whether staff members are trying to fix these bugs?


These issues are very important to us and I can tell you that we are investigating these issues on all fronts.

Modifié par Thomas Abram, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:41 .


#27
neteng101

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Guilty by association is something I've always wondered about.  If someone is blatantly cheating, it would be easy to spot, but often we're pretty busy in game so most times a less blatant cheater won't get reported.  Say someone uses the rocket glitch, and I'm not sure how the glitch even works, but if they fire 7-8 rockets (vs. 50) in a game, it may not be something everyone else is counting so precisely.

No reply needed but just something to consider - part of the reason people might miss on reporting something is because its not obvious enough, and we're too busy worrying about the enemies to be constantly looking at what the rest of the team is up to every single moment in a game.

There's also the ignorance factor - not everyone knows that others are exploiting the game, and what to look out for.  I remember a very long time back when I first started playing, there was like 2 games I played that seemed rather "easy" as in too easy...  it was probably a host cheat but back then I didn't even know any of this was possible.  It wasn't until a couple of weeks later than it dawned upon me what happened that day - I couldn't even being to tell you when that was ie. date/time, and who was in that game.

As for cheating and dealing with cheaters, show them no quarter and have no mercy!  I don't know what your policies are, but if you even show the least bit of leniency to a 100% cheater, at the very least they should be reset to starting over.

#28
DarkerCompanion

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Thomas Abram wrote...

DarkerCompanion wrote...

What kind of effort is being made to fix the methods through which the cheating is being accomplished? Banning people works in the short term, but fixing the bugs in the first place is a much better solution. Is there anything you can share with us about whether staff members are trying to fix these bugs?


These issues are very important to us and I can tell you that we are investigating these issues on all fronts.


Well, as much as I'd like to know more, I trust your word, and if you say you are looking into it, then I will just have to be content with that.

Thanks for your response, and for this thread! Image IPB

#29
IllusiveManJr

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I'm not sure how I feel about exploits in this game. Falling through maps is something that doesn't bother me, but the missile glitch does. Reload cancelling, double shots, etc... those don't bother me either. I've heard some say that's "cheating" too.
I know in Borderlands, which is also a co-op game, there are some people that run around with modded shields. I don't mind that, but modded weapons do bother me. There's also grenade hopping, which is an exploit that can allow you to get to levels earlier or skip entire parts of the map, I don't mind that either.
To be honest, some exploits bother me, some don't. As far as banning, that's all up to you guys.

Modifié par theillusiveman11, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:48 .


#30
Methew

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Thomas Abram wrote...
So what do you think?

Back when Halo: Reach first launched, there were several glitches that people were abusing.

They also had the nerve to try and defend themselves for exploiting these glitches by the fact that the developer left them in, and that since they weren't patched out, they were entitled to them.

We just had a thread that used the same logic.

If a bank vault door is broken and allows people to sneak in and steal money, you don't get to say that your allowed to steal money because the bank should fix it instead of posting a guard (bans) to stop people.

#31
Thomas Abram

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theSatirist wrote...

simple question: when do you plan to fix these exploits?

and when you fix them, will you take care of all the other problems not related to cheating as well? vanguard glitch for instance?


When we release patches we try to target the most important bugs. Game breaking bugs first followed by large impact bugs and so on. Unfortunately I do not know the exact scope of any future changes that's a good rule to follow.

#32
Hyperionyht

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1) Are the banhammers you guys drop for glitch exploits permabans or temporary? Personally, I can understand a ban lasting a few days for a ML glitcher, but to completely remove his ability to play multiplayer seems far too harsh when all he's doing is using a coding mistake to his advantage.

2) The Krysae doubleshot -- bannable offense?
I ask this mostly in jest. Only mostly, however, because I've had people claiming I was cheating when my Engineer was using it. Some even claimed they reported me. I just laughed.
But this brings up an interesting, and more complicated question:
2.1) How do you guys decide which glitches are bannable offenses and what aren't?

3) What's the ETA on the fixes for (a) biotic charge suspended animation, (B) Vorcha invincibility, © infinite missiles, (d) the black hole glitch?

Thanks for making this thread.

Modifié par Hyperionyht, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:46 .


#33
Guest_The Mad Hanar_*

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Also, can you be banned for staying in a lobby with a cheater in it?

#34
Credit2team

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Does BW make a distinction between those who happen upon a glitch accidently and those who exploit a glitch intentionally when enforcing their policies?

For example, the vangaurd glitch will sometimes make the player invulnerable or revive infinitely when they fall through the map. Doing this intentionally would be justly punishable, but this can and does happen to players who have no intention of causing the glitch.

I know you can't give examples or amazing detail on how you enforce your policy in this area, but tell me as much as you can please.

-Thanks!

#35
Mgamerz

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People, there is no ETA on fixes. Just like Cyanogenmod (Android), asking for ETA's is pointless. What if a game breaking bug is discovered right before release? Imagine the ****storm that would occur. It'll get here when it gets here. It's the same as "are we there yet?" in a car, it gets old and accomplishes nothing really.

#36
justinblac

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SkreeMalicious wrote...


Before the flames and questions regarding why leniency.... the sheer number of offenders would likely cripple the player pool for the multiplayer component of the game. Roughly estimating here, but about 20-30% of all players are missile glitching, possibly more.



Is it really that many?  I've only come across one person using the missle glitch, and that person quit after about a minute, so I think it was an accident.  I've run into maybe 4 leechers in 3 months, and one kid who wanted to credit glitch and everyone quit the lobby as soon as he started talking about it.  Maybe I run into fewer cheaters since I only play about 20% of my games with randoms, but I didn't think it was that bad.

#37
Thomas Abram

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neteng101 wrote...

Guilty by association is something I've always wondered about.  If someone is blatantly cheating, it would be easy to spot, but often we're pretty busy in game so most times a less blatant cheater won't get reported.  Say someone uses the rocket glitch, and I'm not sure how the glitch even works, but if they fire 7-8 rockets (vs. 50) in a game, it may not be something everyone else is counting so precisely.

No reply needed but just something to consider - part of the reason people might miss on reporting something is because its not obvious enough, and we're too busy worrying about the enemies to be constantly looking at what the rest of the team is up to every single moment in a game.

There's also the ignorance factor - not everyone knows that others are exploiting the game, and what to look out for.  I remember a very long time back when I first started playing, there was like 2 games I played that seemed rather "easy" as in too easy...  it was probably a host cheat but back then I didn't even know any of this was possible.  It wasn't until a couple of weeks later than it dawned upon me what happened that day - I couldn't even being to tell you when that was ie. date/time, and who was in that game.

As for cheating and dealing with cheaters, show them no quarter and have no mercy!  I don't know what your policies are, but if you even show the least bit of leniency to a 100% cheater, at the very least they should be reset to starting over.


There is definitely some grey area on this topic and hopefully I can clear it up. Guilty by association is a very interesting thing but I feel that we combat it very well.

When investigating cheaters we perform a lot of unique checks. Some of these checks are not definitive but more paint us a picture of what took place. Some of these checks are definitive, black and white, cheater vs legit. While I'm sure there are a lot of people who want to know what these specific checks are I cannot say but I can assure you that my team takes this procedure very seriously.

#38
Thomas Abram

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justinblac wrote...

SkreeMalicious wrote...


Before the flames and questions regarding why leniency.... the sheer number of offenders would likely cripple the player pool for the multiplayer component of the game. Roughly estimating here, but about 20-30% of all players are missile glitching, possibly more.



Is it really that many?  I've only come across one person using the missle glitch, and that person quit after about a minute, so I think it was an accident.  I've run into maybe 4 leechers in 3 months, and one kid who wanted to credit glitch and everyone quit the lobby as soon as he started talking about it.  Maybe I run into fewer cheaters since I only play about 20% of my games with randoms, but I didn't think it was that bad.


It's not even close to double digits.

#39
Pantalaimon

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Just thought i'd mention, ALL matches that involve Rocket Glitching seems to happen in Glacier against Reapers or Geth, (My experience, Not rematching)I even came across people with there mics on training some N7 level 50 HOW to do the glitch, I joined mid-game and they were talking about kicking me, I don't know if i should report them, Since i have all of there names down. I have NEVER done it myself, And never will. The only thing i have done is the Hydra Map glitch. I also quit every game i see Missile glitchers, Which seems to be so often i haven't played much at all today, It takes all of the fun out of it and is too simple to do, Please remove it.

#40
Thomas Abram

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thewalrusx wrote...

Does BW make a distinction between those who happen upon a glitch accidently and those who exploit a glitch intentionally when enforcing their policies?

For example, the vangaurd glitch will sometimes make the player invulnerable or revive infinitely when they fall through the map. Doing this intentionally would be justly punishable, but this can and does happen to players who have no intention of causing the glitch.

I know you can't give examples or amazing detail on how you enforce your policy in this area, but tell me as much as you can please.

-Thanks!


We definitely do. One of the big things we focus on is looking at reports (internal and external) in many different ways.

#41
Credit2team

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Thomas Abram wrote...

thewalrusx wrote...

Does BW make a distinction between those who happen upon a glitch accidently and those who exploit a glitch intentionally when enforcing their policies?

For example, the vangaurd glitch will sometimes make the player invulnerable or revive infinitely when they fall through the map. Doing this intentionally would be justly punishable, but this can and does happen to players who have no intention of causing the glitch.

I know you can't give examples or amazing detail on how you enforce your policy in this area, but tell me as much as you can please.

-Thanks!


We definitely do. One of the big things we focus on is looking at reports (internal and external) in many different ways.


Thanks for answering. I'm just hoping that If I am wrongly accused by a fellow player there will be some form of due process. :innocent:

Modifié par thewalrusx, 04 juillet 2012 - 07:55 .


#42
Lambda_00

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MWaHa wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

Mgamerz wrote...

DarkerCompanion wrote...

What kind of effort is being made to fix the methods through which the cheating is being accomplished? Banning people works in the short term, but fixing the bugs in the first place is a much better solution. Is there anything you can share with us about whether staff members are trying to fix these bugs?

Atheosis wrote...

You need to start patching more often and more effectively. With the two DLC packs you've added more bugs (and by extension glitches) than you've fixed since the game was released.


I'm afraid I agree with this sentiment. The patches seem to be remarkably limited in scope, but with a very large development time. The last patch seemed to be entirely pre-Resurgence, but was released at the same time as Rebellion. Bugs from Rebellion era must be so far behind on the gameplan . . . that there may be no hope at all.

Please see my signature. Can we get that thread stickied?


Your signature is ridiculous in the extreme.  I have been gaming for many years and I've seen many developers effectively patch their games over and over again.  Stop making excuses for BW.  Patching may be harder than your avergae schmoe realizes, but it's not so hard that four months should go by with almost no meaningful fixes.


It seems to be the burden here is on Atheosis to prove his point. What factors should we consider in how quickly games are patched? It seems like games with more lines of code should be patched slower (since the programming is more complex), and given that ME3 is a very recent game, you would expect patches to take longer than, say, a patch for the original Oregon Trail. What is the average rate of patches for a game that is on multiple platforms? How large is the standard game's patch in terms of number of lines of code edited / added?

You might be right, but you're ultimately going to be unpersuasive (and some might even mistake you for a crank) unless you can answr questions like this in a very boring, quantitative way.


Also, one needs to take into account the engines themselves that specific developers are using to develop the games, some make it easier to find&fix the issues compared to others.

#43
Uchimura

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Hyperionyht wrote...
 but to completely remove his ability to play multiplayer seems far too harsh when all he's doing is using a coding mistake to his advantage.


You don't 'fall in' to doing this repeatedly. It's with intent to trivialize the game. It's a bug that was not intended.. but the player is exploiting it intentionally.

#44
MWaHa

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The biggest question I have is: How strong is the expectation that players report cheaters? Is it mandatory to report cheaters? Will punitive action be taken against those that don't report cheaters?

I encountered my first cheater last night (missile glitch), and I left the lobby after finishing the game. I then sent him a message saying I was reporting him, and he sent me one back and he seemed apologetic. I was legitimately on the fence about reporting him. I decided to do so anyway, but I wonder if BioWare would punish me if it ever found out I decided to not report a cheater.

#45
Thomas Abram

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Hyperionyht wrote...

1) Are the banhammers you guys drop for glitch exploits permabans or temporary? Personally, I can understand a ban lasting a few days for a ML glitcher, but to completely remove his ability to play multiplayer seems far too harsh when all he's doing is using a coding mistake to his advantage.

2) The Krysae doubleshot -- bannable offense?
I ask this mostly in jest. Only mostly, however, because I've had people claiming I was cheating when my Engineer was using it. Some even claimed they reported me. I just laughed.
But this brings up an interesting, and more complicated question:
2.1) How do you guys decide which glitches are bannable offenses and what aren't?

3) What's the ETA on the fixes for (a) biotic charge suspended animation, (B) Vorcha invincibility, © infinite missiles, (d) the black hole glitch?

Thanks for making this thread.


#1. It's very case by case. We hope to announce something regarding this exact question soon.

#2. Currently no.

#2.1 We look at our policies and procedures and if it fits, it fits. Something like the infinite rocket glitch broke many different rules.

#3. I'm not in the loop on what's going on with those fixes, sorry.

#46
Drummernate

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What do you think about the bottom 2 glitches I mentioned in my first post?...

Are they "bannable offenses"?

The invisible missile launcher and the overlook on Hydra?

#47
morph4037

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No real question, just wanted to thank you for making this thread. Hopefully it cuts some of the forum clutter down. :)

#48
neeeiiil

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I really appreciate that action is being taken on cheaters and fully support it. I've encountered a few missile glitch exploiters this week on gold and it really spoils the game for me. It renders teamwork redundant, competition meaningless and It removes all sense of challenge and accomplishment.

#49
Thomas Abram

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MWaHa wrote...

The biggest question I have is: How strong is the expectation that players report cheaters? Is it mandatory to report cheaters? Will punitive action be taken against those that don't report cheaters?

I encountered my first cheater last night (missile glitch), and I left the lobby after finishing the game. I then sent him a message saying I was reporting him, and he sent me one back and he seemed apologetic. I was legitimately on the fence about reporting him. I decided to do so anyway, but I wonder if BioWare would punish me if it ever found out I decided to not report a cheater.


There is no expectation that players will report others nor will we ever reprimand a player for not reporting someone (as long as there was no post-match effects on their account). I'm sure you'll agree that these cheaters take away from the experience and I think that's what fuels people reporting cheaters.

Good question.

#50
megabeast37215

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Keep up the good work.

No tolerance for cheaters!