204 réponses à ce sujet

[nitefyre410]

Fuzzfro you are brave soul sir, a you have my admiration and respect...

now, he comes the hatred..

Tracia Helfer deserve a damn award for her voice with EDI... she really does... her performance was great through entire of ME 3.

"I called him on his bull****." gets me every time.

[adneate]

Forbry wrote...
I think synthesis COULD exist, without knowing and/or understanding its exact ins and outs

I would assume the law of energy convservation would prohibit such a concept, since the energy required to rewrite every single organic molecule in the Milky Way galaxy wouldn't just be astronomical or enormous but rather a singular release of energy on the size of the Big Bang. I didn't see them sucking up star systems to power the crucible and I imagine you'd probably have to drain a couple stars of every ounce of energy to even attempt to pull this off on one race let alone all of them and every plant and animal. There's also the problem of how an energy wave can preform a task as complicated and delicate as a full genetic rewrite of all life everywhere when it's a force as simple as an electro magnetic pulse. An EMP wave doesn't seek out electronic equipment it simply overloads everything in it's past like an invisible gust of wind. It would be pretty damn difficult to get an EMP wave to only destroy certain things it would be impossible to get it to turn toaster ovens into dogs.

One is a stretch of the actual science the other is a miracle akin to Jesus Christ himself with the loaves and the fishes.

[inko1nsiderate]

mrfinke wrote...

No, Edi says "I am Alive!". She doesn't say I am alive and free.

Unfortunately, this seems to imply that she wasn't alive before. It implies Tali lied -Legion didn't have a soul & his sacrifice was meaningless, and destroy is okay because geth/edi aren't really alive anyway.

Also, I think she only hugs your LI in Synthesis and not in Control as a way to show she is more 'alive'.

I felt that the freedom was implied, the statement of being alive was a reminder of the value of synthetics.  Though the point about a lack of LI hug is something I don't have a good explanation for.  Which is why I need to rewatch it.

[Giggles_Manically]

Personally I find it one of the single most disgusting and just plain wrong ending.
Its what SAREN wanted for Blasto's sake.

[Zeppex]

I don't like synthesis because you take free will away from people. I've said it before and I'll say it again what happens to the ppl in backwater world who know nothing of space travel, and one day they wake up half synthetic? If they were in the stages of say humans at roman times, the planet would fall apart they would think the gods forsake them. My only real issue no free will, and that is fundamental right of all sentient beings.

Destroy at least to me it works, yeah you can say the Geth will die, but I'll counter with communications. Hackett can speak with you when ur different locations in space. Couldn't Shepard have called them, and told them to go into dark space? Ronnach is in veil, which is literally at the edge of regular space...

[Torrible]

 
http://www.universet...overed-at-cern/

[RinuCZ]

I don't see any question booting the thread to answer, so I can say only: Good for you, Fuzzfro.

Modifié par RinuCZ, 04 juillet 2012 - 08:52 .

[wafflez]

O_o

[Eradyn]

Yes, so long as I try to ignore all logic and reasoning, Synthesis superficially appears very beautiful and fulfilling. They use lots of lofty dialogue and heart-tugging instrumentals to paint a very rainbows and unicorns-type ending. I will agree that it was better presented in EC than in the OC, but take that for what you will.

Modifié par Eradyn, 04 juillet 2012 - 08:53 .

[inko1nsiderate]

adneate wrote...


I would assume the law of energy convservation would prohibit such a concept, since the energy required to rewrite every single organic molecule in the Milky Way galaxy wouldn't just be astronomical or enormous but rather a singular release of energy on the size of the Big Bang.
 

 

First, if you start talking about conservation of energy, then you have to start tearing apart the entire series.  It violates it a lot.  Moreover, in a universe with accelerated expansion you don't have strict conservation of energy.  The violation is small, but in the strictest sense energy conservation is violated on large cosmological scales.

Secondly, the amount of energy required is pure speculation, and the stuff you are spouting about the Big Bang energy is pure fiction.

As for the EMP stuff, I guess it depends.  If an EMP is damaging because it is a high intensity pulsed electromagnetic wave, then you can tune it to particular frequencies to have some specificity.  If an EMP is damaging because of the magnetic field strengths in this pulse, then making it be specific is obviously a challenge.  I guess my argument is that most 'energy waves' you see in sci-fi make no sense or have no well defined physical properties so trying to constrain them with real physics seems a little like talking about the physics of magic.  The two are pratically indistinguishable in all but termingology as far as I can tell.

That being said...

there are limits to how far you can and should stretch your imagination for the sake of a story.  Obviously, even if you love the endings, the Crucible is pushing it.  And I say this as someone who loves the endings: the Crucible is damn near as far as I can suspend my disbelief.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 04 juillet 2012 - 09:05 .

[Allaiya]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@OP:

And here my litany of corrections of misperceptions:
(1) Synthesis does not remove individuality
(2) Synthesis does not remove free will
(3) Synthesis does not make everyone the same
(4) Synthesis does not brainwash anyone.
(5) Synthesis has some utopian imagery, but it's main theme is ascension. That is the antithesis of the stagnation usually associated with utopias.

The reason I cannot condone the Synthesis Solution, even if individuals maintain their free will, is its line of thinking. It is based on the idea that to remove conflict one must simply remove the difference causing the conflict.

Wars are caused by ideolgoies & other differences than the synthetic problem. If the races of the galaxy still possess free will, then at some point there will be another conflict.

Just think if we applied the Synthesis solution  to all the differences that create conflict. Have everyone become bisexual & no more worries about hate crimes.
Get rid of male/female, no more gender discrimination. Get rid of different appearances, no more racism. Force everyone to believe in one religion & no more persecution. Think of all the peace & understanding that would now be possible.

Modifié par mrfinke, 04 juillet 2012 - 08:59 .

[Lionel Ou]

ORGANIC ****ING ENERGY!

[Meltemph]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

Still have never gotten a straight answer on this question

But I have an answer that relies on current predictions from futurism, as well as visual cues from the cutscene itself.  But don't worry, I'm probably still a tool.

Do you realize the difference between the link you posted and what synthesis is? What you posted is chemical based, what synthesis does, is reshape inorganic.  That is a massive difference.

As for the rest of the synthesis fans... I dislike it because it is comical to me and comes across as cheesy magic induced in a scifi world. 

However, the biggest problem with synthesis is all the religious-like fanatics that come with the ending.  It's like their own personal sciontology or some such.  Little creepy. I dont care if someone likes the ending, but, I think for a lot of people that liked that ending it goes farther then that.

[Billyg3453]

adneate wrote...

I would assume the law of energy convservation would prohibit such a concept, since the energy required to rewrite every single organic molecule in the Milky Way galaxy wouldn't just be astronomical or enormous but rather a singular release of energy on the size of the Big Bang. I didn't see them sucking up star systems to power the crucible and I imagine you'd probably have to drain a couple stars of every ounce of energy to even attempt to pull this off on one race let alone all of them and every plant and animal. There's also the problem of how an energy wave can preform a task as complicated and delicate as a full genetic rewrite of all life everywhere when it's a force as simple as an electro magnetic pulse. An EMP wave doesn't seek out electronic equipment it simply overloads everything in it's past like an invisible gust of wind. It would be pretty damn difficult to get an EMP wave to only destroy certain things it would be impossible to get it to turn toaster ovens into dogs.

One is a stretch of the actual science the other is a miracle akin to Jesus Christ himself with the loaves and the fishes.

You can't discuss actual laws of physics in Mass Effect since the series completely ignores relativity and common theories on FTL travel.

Your last point is true. The Crucible uses space magic regardless of your choice, it just varies on it's magnitude.

[inko1nsiderate]

Torrible wrote...

 
http://www.universet...overed-at-cern/

Yeah, so?  We've found a boson that decays like the Higgs Boson at a mass of 125-126 GeV, with a cross section slightly lower than the Standard Model Higgs boson and some funkiness in the H-> tau, tau channel.  What is your point?

Is it that the Higgs boson is a fundamental scalar particle, and it has a non-zero vacuum expectation value, so you can think of it as being all over the universe at the same time?  This is easy to see if you keep in mind the picture of canonical second quantization.  The non-zero vacuum expecation value means if you sandwhich the second quantized wavefunction for the Higgs between two ground states, as you do with an expectation value, that you get a non-zero value.  This means that the creation and destruction operators actully pick out particles even after normal ordering.  So there are Higgses everywhere.

How does this deal with Synthesis at all?

[Torrible]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

Torrible wrote...

 
http://www.universet...overed-at-cern/

Yeah, so?  We've found a boson that decays like the Higgs Boson at a mass of 125-126 GeV, with a cross section slightly lower than the Standard Model Higgs boson and some funkiness in the H-> tau, tau channel.  What is your point?

Is it that the Higgs boson is a fundamental scalar particle, and it has a non-zero vacuum expectation value, so you can think of it as being all over the universe at the same time?  This is easy to see if you keep in mind the picture of canonical second quantization.  The non-zero vacuum expecation value means if you sandwhich the second quantized wavefunction for the Higgs between two ground states, as you do with an expectation value, that you get a non-zero value.  This means that the creation and destruction operators actully pick out particles even after normal ordering.  So there are Higgses everywhere.

How does this deal with Synthesis at all?

Have you considered that I was just spamming?

[Ieldra]

mrfinke wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@OP:

And here my litany of corrections of misperceptions:
(1) Synthesis does not remove individuality
(2) Synthesis does not remove free will
(3) Synthesis does not make everyone the same
(4) Synthesis does not brainwash anyone.
(5) Synthesis has some utopian imagery, but it's main theme is ascension. That is the antithesis of the stagnation usually associated with utopias.

The reason I cannot condone the Synthesis Solution, even if individuals maintain their free will, is its line of thinking. It is based on the idea that to remove conflict one must simply remove the difference causing the conflict.

The EC retcons the "removal of all differences". "Organics will be perfected by integrating with synthetic technology, and synthetics will finally have full understanding of organics": In a way, both sides gain desirable traits from the other, but a basic difference is retained. It is implied they grow closer in future though.

Also, the organic synthetic conflict is presented as different from "normal" conflicts between species. I agree that's a thematic inconsistency given what came before. If you play the games a certain way, it's almost like you spent three games proving the Catalyst wrong and succeeding, until the ending comes along and says you got it all wrong. It's not specific to the Synthesis, which is desirable for its own reasons apart from solving the organic/synthetic conflict, but IMO *the* main problem with the ending scenario as such. But given the new description, I can choose Synthesis regardless of whether I believe it's necessary for coexistence, just as people can choose Destroy without having to believe that organics will be wiped out by synthetics in future. 

[Whatever42]

Reason why the 99.99% certainity that we found the Higgs is relevent to this conversation:

"Have a look at one of your Christmas presents. Inside the box, Higgs said, there are Higgs particles. Countless billions of them. The energy they store is greater than that given out by the sun in a thousand years. "

[AtreiyaN7]

Forbry wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Messi Kossmann wrote...

Clarke's three laws:

1 - When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

2 - The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.

3 - Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

I don't need to tell you how nonsense these "laws" (They aren't) are, do I?

There's definitely a lot of truth in there! If you can't see that, I really wonder why you play Scfi-games at all.

I agree with Forbry - I even cited a version of Clarke's Three Laws somewhere in my blog/blog comments at some point. But hey, most people here don't seem to respect any of the sci-fi giants and visionaries in the literary world and are dismissive of them. You know, even though Arthur C. Clarke basically came up with (or predicted if you prefer) the idea of geostationary satellites - those silly things that make so many things possible in the world today (and here's his 1945 letter in which he first suggests the possibility of geostationary satellites: http://lakdiva.org/clarke/1945ww/).

A lot of people have thought that a lot of things were stupid, heretical, impossible, or wrong throughout history - and then those things have proven to be true, like the heliocentric theory. *points at Copernicus and Galileo and Bruno* I'm not saying the initial execution of the ME3 endings was great because they could have done a better job of fleshing things out for most people and avoided a lot of problems, but it's not as if the ideas themselves aren't thought-provoking (including an ending that explores the ideas of transhumanism and singularity).

[AngryFrozenWater]

Fuzzfro wrote...

And I was not dissapointed, synthesis was just beautiful,  both synthetics and organics were together in harmony, synthetics were alive and civilization is at the pinnacle of evolution where socitey can rebuild and prosper like never before.

First. Glad that you enjoyed the game.

Second. About the paragraph I quoted, there must be a reason for that harmony. Something must have triggered that. Besides space magic (no pun intended), what made that possible?

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 04 juillet 2012 - 09:15 .

[inko1nsiderate]

Torrible wrote...

Have you considered that I was just spamming?

Have you considered I was giving you a 'theoretical physicist' beatdown for spamming?

[Dakkaface]

Fuzzfro, I salute you.  Enjoy the ending that you like most, and don't listen to the haters. 

[Torrible]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Have you considered that I was just spamming?

Have you considered I was giving you a 'theoretical physicist' beatdown for spamming?

Yes, because it is a perfectly normal thing to say in reaction to suspected spam about Physics.

EDIT: Let's not derail this anymore.

Modifié par Torrible, 04 juillet 2012 - 09:18 .

[inko1nsiderate]

Torrible wrote...

inko1nsiderate wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Have you considered that I was just spamming?

Have you considered I was giving you a 'theoretical physicist' beatdown for spamming?

Yes, because it is a perfectly normal thing to say in reaction to suspected spam about Physics.

EDIT: Let's not derail this anymore.

Last derailment, I swear.  It is a perfectly normal reaction to suspected spam about physics... by a theoretical physicist .

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 04 juillet 2012 - 09:20 .

[adneate]

inko1nsiderate wrote...
there are limits to how far you can and should stretch your imagination for the sake of a story.  Obviously, even if you love the endings, the Crucible is pushing it.  And I say this as someone who loves the endings: the Crucible is damn near as far as I can suspend my disbelief.

Which brings me to why I don't like Synthesis as a story concept, let alone all the implications of that concept. In every fictional universe you start out by saying "These are our liberties where we are going to ignore reality for the sake of the story" and "This is our limit where we won't go past and if we do we'll have a solid explanation of why we're going past the set limits". The writers never really adequately explain the how's and why's of Synthesis for a story concept as broad and as far reaching as Synthesis is. As a story device we're already being asked to accept that a machine is capable of frying all Reapers instantly and incinerate their ground troops, yet leave everything else untouched except for other synthetics which it kills for some reason. Like Engineer Ted forgot the 7th flux capacitor and Geth 34 didn't notice thus dooming all Synthetic life to having their operating systems corrupted. But they also want us to accept that this same machine, this weapon, can be used to rewrite all organic life and differentiate between synthetic "life" and normal machines and computers. That it can also somehow instantly merge these two radically different things and fundamentally alter every aspect of them yet have them look and act identical to how they did before with the exception they kinda glow green now for some reason.

There's suspending my disbelief and then there's beating myself in the head with a hammer until I'm as stupid as the person who wrote this.

Also just as a fan Synthesis changes literally everything about the setting we spent 5 years falling in love with, why in God's name would I want that unless I hated the setting? I don't want this to be Synth Effect I want it to be Mass Effect, the same old Mass Effect. That's the biggest overarching reason I reject both Synthesis and Control as endings, they radically change the setting to where it's unrecognizable and I don't want that.