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[bloodmage13]

 What abilities does lyrium give the templars? Considering the Mage Templar war, that question seems really relevant. The two games hint at it but never explain it

Modifié par bloodmage13, 05 juillet 2012 - 01:56 .

[aldien]

bloodmage13 wrote...

 What abilities does lyrium give the templars? Considering the Mage Templar war, that question seems really relevant. The two games hint at it but never explain it

Apparantly, it gives them the ability to resist magic and interrupt mage's from casting spells. But, it is my understanding that the templars who can do this have to be seasoned. I don't think a lowly templar could withstand a mage's magic, but someone with years of training and lots of ingestion of lyrium could fight off a mage attack.

They become addicted to it and so dependant on the Chantry to keep supplying it. So, the Chantry really does have a deep hold over the templars. Kind of like a pimp really.

[dragonflight288]

Or if you go with Alistair, who had never taken his vows, and thereby hadn't taken any lyrium himself, it probably does nothing for anyone. other than get them addicted.

Alistair: It doesn't give us power, but only enhances it and makes it more affective. Or so we've been told. Maybe it doesn't even do that.

[ImperialHeir]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or if you go with Alistair, who had never taken his vows, and thereby hadn't taken any lyrium himself, it probably does nothing for anyone. other than get them addicted.

Alistair: It doesn't give us power, but only enhances it and makes it more affective. Or so we've been told. Maybe it doesn't even do that.

No matter the effect it has on Templar abilities, getting trained warriors and guardians addicted to drugs is not a good idea. Unless your the Chantry, in which case you now have an army.

[aldien]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or if you go with Alistair, who had never taken his vows, and thereby hadn't taken any lyrium himself, it probably does nothing for anyone. other than get them addicted.

Alistair: It doesn't give us power, but only enhances it and makes it more affective. Or so we've been told. Maybe it doesn't even do that.

Have to wonder how they could surpress a mage casting a spell if the lyrium does nothing. I figured the lyrium allowed them to draw from the Fade in order to reduce how much power a mage can pull from the Fade. If that makes sense. I mean, the Circle of Magi use it in order to enter the Fade so why would it have no effect on a templar?


And what does Templar ability mean? Is it warrior specialization, in which case, that just means specially trained fighters or magic ability?

Modifié par aldien, 05 juillet 2012 - 07:55 .

[DarkDragon777]

Lyrium in large amounts MAY also be able to give special healing abilities, as Oghren explains in Origins that the ashes of Andraste may have gotten their special ability from the large lyrium deposit in the Frostback Mountains.

[LolaLei]

I guess lyrium serves to enhance the Templars skills and abilities, giving them greater magic resistance and the ability to temporarily drain the magic from a Mage in order to capture/kill them. I do wonder if a Templar could hone his/her abilities to be equally as effective without lyrium if he/she put in enough training (over the course of several years or something), perhaps lyrium serves as a means to temporarily gain the extra strength needed in their skills/abilities quickly. One things for sure, lyrium ruins their minds after years of abusing the stuff.

Also, does anyone know if that ex-Templar Samson from DA2 had actually completely come off the lyrium? Because he talks about it nearly killing him when he stopped taking it as if to say he'd survived the withdrawal symptoms, but then later on there's a subtle reference made about him begging for coin in Lowtown for lyrium dust... and then much later on you have the option to convince Cullen to let Samson back into the Templar Order so that he can get his regular fix.

... I wonder if anyone can properly survive the comedown? Maybe there's a cure or potion to dull the side effects?

[dragonflight288]

Have to wonder how they could surpress a mage casting a spell if the lyrium does nothing. I figured the lyrium allowed them to draw from the Fade in order to reduce how much power a mage can pull from the Fade. If that makes sense. I mean, the Circle of Magi use it in order to enter the Fade so why would it have no effect on a templar?


And what does Templar ability mean? Is it warrior specialization, in which case, that just means specially trained fighters or magic ability?

lyrium is raw magic formed in a mineral. It has a lot of affects. Its used in enchanting, mages use it as a power source to amplify their magic as a way to avoid using blood magic which would also work just as well, it's in several rituals, like the Grey Warden joining, which had to be prepared by mages.

Ingesting it may amplify the templars abilities. I would personally like in DA3 the option to join the templars and discover the truth of lyrium. Say...any warrior can learn the templar abilities like Alistair, but using lyrium allows us to upgrade those abilities so they actually are amplified.

What I do know is that everyone who ingests lyrium get addicted. And if they have too much of it, they go nuts and forget about everything, and if they are cut off, they can go insane or die from the withdrawal, so the only real solution is to keep on it. Which is how the Chantry controlled the templars.

At least until the Divine had a different view on how mages should be treated so the templars declared the Nevarran Accord to be void and are now trying to murder every mage for the heinous crime of being cursed by the maker, by being a mage.

Now the templars need a new source of lyrium. I shudder to think what the common man of Thedas will be going through as we now have an army of drug addicts who are also religious zealots for the most part, and they also lost the main lyrium provider, which is the Chantry.

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or if you go with Alistair, who had never taken his vows, and thereby hadn't taken any lyrium himself, it probably does nothing for anyone. other than get them addicted.

Alistair: It doesn't give us power, but only enhances it and makes it more affective. Or so we've been told. Maybe it doesn't even do that.

It's been pretty well debunked that that scene is to be ignored.  It's on record somewhere, per David Gaider, AND an in-game codex, that lyrium is what gives templars their abilities.  Apparently that scene with Alistair was written prior to that and was simply overlooked by whoever is in charge of making sure the overall story maintains internal consistency.

[Silfren]

aldien wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Or if you go with Alistair, who had never taken his vows, and thereby hadn't taken any lyrium himself, it probably does nothing for anyone. other than get them addicted.

Alistair: It doesn't give us power, but only enhances it and makes it more affective. Or so we've been told. Maybe it doesn't even do that.

Have to wonder how they could surpress a mage casting a spell if the lyrium does nothing. I figured the lyrium allowed them to draw from the Fade in order to reduce how much power a mage can pull from the Fade. If that makes sense. I mean, the Circle of Magi use it in order to enter the Fade so why would it have no effect on a templar?


And what does Templar ability mean? Is it warrior specialization, in which case, that just means specially trained fighters or magic ability?

templar abilities refers specifically to a templar's powers in countering magic, since it is that ability which separates templars from common soldiers.

[Silfren]

DarkDragon777 wrote...

Lyrium in large amounts MAY also be able to give special healing abilities, as Oghren explains in Origins that the ashes of Andraste may have gotten their special ability from the large lyrium deposit in the Frostback Mountains.

This simply does not make sense.  Sorry, but I do not accept that a substance which is referred to many, many times as being horrifically dangerous in the extreme, especially in raw form, can also heal.  Especially I don't believe this would be the case in large amounts, since it is repeated over and over again taht excessive overexposure to lyrium is very, very deadly.

This is the go-to alternate explanation for how Andraste's ashes could heal without resorting to the Chantry-is-right-About-the-Maker explanation, but it just doesn't hold any water given the foundational lore about how dangerously lethal lyrium is.

[EricHVela]

I've wondered about any link between Lyrium and Darkspawn.

I'm know that the famous magisters used a lot of Blood Magic to cause the Big Oops. Yet, I have to wonder if they went even further by adding large amounts of Lyrium into the mix. After all, "pure" Lyrium is what they used during the Harrowing to put a mage into the Fade in the Ferelden Circle. Would the Lyrium still be present in their bodies when they were cast down?

Then again, the Darkspawn curse might be solely a creation of the Maker and have nothing to do with Lyrium at all -- if one is to believe the Chant.

Then again again, the Darkspawn curse could have been the result of trying to reach this infamous Golden City and it going awry on its own, warping the magisters into the first Darkspawn without any interference from some (possibly imaginary) Maker. Even Corypheus isn't very clear on what happened. Speculations are abound based on his ramblings. In this case, Lyrium is rather likely to be still part of the whole Darkspawn mess.

EDIT: Spellng fael.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 06 juillet 2012 - 07:19 .

[aldien]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Have to wonder how they could surpress a mage casting a spell if the lyrium does nothing. I figured the lyrium allowed them to draw from the Fade in order to reduce how much power a mage can pull from the Fade. If that makes sense. I mean, the Circle of Magi use it in order to enter the Fade so why would it have no effect on a templar?


And what does Templar ability mean? Is it warrior specialization, in which case, that just means specially trained fighters or magic ability?

lyrium is raw magic formed in a mineral. It has a lot of affects. Its used in enchanting, mages use it as a power source to amplify their magic as a way to avoid using blood magic which would also work just as well, it's in several rituals, like the Grey Warden joining, which had to be prepared by mages.

Ingesting it may amplify the templars abilities. I would personally like in DA3 the option to join the templars and discover the truth of lyrium. Say...any warrior can learn the templar abilities like Alistair, but using lyrium allows us to upgrade those abilities so they actually are amplified.

What I do know is that everyone who ingests lyrium get addicted. And if they have too much of it, they go nuts and forget about everything, and if they are cut off, they can go insane or die from the withdrawal, so the only real solution is to keep on it. Which is how the Chantry controlled the templars.

At least until the Divine had a different view on how mages should be treated so the templars declared the Nevarran Accord to be void and are now trying to murder every mage for the heinous crime of being cursed by the maker, by being a mage.

Now the templars need a new source of lyrium. I shudder to think what the common man of Thedas will be going through as we now have an army of drug addicts who are also religious zealots for the most part, and they also lost the main lyrium provider, which is the Chantry.

Hmmmmmm perhaps they should call Danarius up and have an army of Fenris-like warriors made. It would make for the ultimate templar and probably reduce their lyrium bills. 

I suspect the murder rate will go up without a constant source of lyrium for the templars. It could get very ugly for the Divine and the average citizen. I suspect they will not cover the drug addiction problem in DA3, but it is a fine point.

I think that lyrium does not provide a person with healing abilities. If it did, Fenris would probably be able to heal his own body without the aid of a mage or healing potion. I use him as an example since he has the stuff infused in his body.

I suppose one could argue blood magic is addictive as lyrium. Just a thought.

[aldien]

ReggarBlane wrote...

I've wondered about any link between Lyrium and Darkspawn.

I'm know that the famous magisters used a lot of Blood Magic to cause the Big Oops. Yet, I have to wonder if they went even further by adding large amounts of Lyrium into the mix. After all, "pure" Lyrium is what they used during the Harrowing to put a mage into the Fade in the Ferelden Circle. Would the Lyrium still be present in their bodies when they were cast down?

Then again, the Darkspawn curse might be solely a creation of the Maker and have nothing to do with Lyrium at all -- if one is to believe the Chant.

Then again again, the Darkspawn curse could have been the result of trying to reach this infamous Golden City and it going awry on its own, warping the magisters into the first Darkspawn without any interference from some (possibly imaginary) Maker. Even Corypheus isn't very clear on what happened. Speculations are abound based on his ramblings. In this case, Lyrium is rather likely to be still part of the whole Darkspawn mess.

EDIT: Spellng fael.

Perhaps red lyrium and darkspawn are connected. It seems to be extremely powerful and strangely evil in nature. It obviously has the ability to alter a person example Meredith and Bartrand. I mean, Bartrand must have been somewhat immune to the effects of lyrium since he lived in Orzamar, yet red lyrium drove him mad. Have to wonder if you combined red lyrium with blood magic exactly what they would do to a person.

[dragonflight288]

This simply does not make sense. Sorry, but I do not accept that a substance which is referred to many, many times as being horrifically dangerous in the extreme, especially in raw form, can also heal. Especially I don't believe this would be the case in large amounts, since it is repeated over and over again taht excessive overexposure to lyrium is very, very deadly.

Of course it's dangerous. It's is raw magic formed as a mineral. And I remember reading in a codex, can't remember which one, that lyrium actually grows.

And Oghren is right. The mountain where the Ashes is full of lyrium. Is the Ashes magical or the mouontain? Since lyrium is raw magic in physical form, of course the mountain would be magical. But did the mountain influence the ashes or not? I don't know.

But there is a strong possibility that's the case.

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

This simply does not make sense. Sorry, but I do not accept that a substance which is referred to many, many times as being horrifically dangerous in the extreme, especially in raw form, can also heal. Especially I don't believe this would be the case in large amounts, since it is repeated over and over again taht excessive overexposure to lyrium is very, very deadly.

Of course it's dangerous. It's is raw magic formed as a mineral. And I remember reading in a codex, can't remember which one, that lyrium actually grows.

And Oghren is right. The mountain where the Ashes is full of lyrium. Is the Ashes magical or the mouontain? Since lyrium is raw magic in physical form, of course the mountain would be magical. But did the mountain influence the ashes or not? I don't know.

But there is a strong possibility that's the case.

Uh.  You completely missed my entire point.  Nobody has suggested the mountain itself as being magical.  The post I addressed didn't say anything of the sort, but referred to the lyrium deposits IN the mountain giving the ashes the ability to heal.  Everything I said above still holds.  Given everything we have been given in the lore about how bloody dangerous lyrium is, especially raw, what possible motive is there to believe that it would also randomly impart the ability to heal to nearby objects?  If this is a native ability of lyrium in general, than any substands that has been set near lyrium for a thousand years should have the same ability, in which case it would be a great idea for people to start collecting any rocks they find near lyrium deposits in dwarf mines.  Also, if this were a trait of lyrium, it would be part of the rest of the lore, not just a throwaway line hinted at by Oghren.  

As attempts go to re-establish the ambiguity that Bioware created with respect to the myth of Andraste and then destroyed with the Sacred Ashes quest, the lyrium-did-it theory just isn't in the least bit plausible.

Modifié par Silfren, 18 juillet 2012 - 10:08 .

[Silfren]

Nizaris1 wrote...

DarkDragon777 wrote...
Lyrium in large amounts MAY also be able to give special healing abilities, as Oghren explains in Origins that the ashes of Andraste may have gotten their special ability from the large lyrium deposit in the Frostback Mountains.

Silfren wrote...
This simply does not make sense. Sorry, but I do not accept that a substance which is referred to many, many times as being horrifically dangerous in the extreme, especially in raw form, can also heal. Especially I don't believe this would be the case in large amounts, since it is repeated over and over again taht excessive overexposure to lyrium is very, very deadly.

This is the go-to alternate explanation for how Andraste's ashes could heal without resorting to the Chantry-is-right-About-the-Maker explanation, but it just doesn't hold any water given the foundational lore about how dangerously lethal lyrium is.

If you replay DA:O, see that it was a Mage who doing the ritual with the Sacred Ashes to cure Arl Eamon, it is not miracle, it is magic

The question is whether lyrium imparted the ability to heal to the ashes as an alternate theory to whether the ashes heal because they are Andraste's blessed remains.  That scene you refer to is ambiguous in itself, since IIRC, all you see of a ritual are the ashes being cast over Eamon's body.  At any rate, your own suggestion here doesn't help matters at all, because it still deals with the ashes being magically capable of healing, and that still leaves the question as to why. 

[Blacklash93]

DA2 seemed like it would have been a great place to reveal exactly how Templars acquire their abilities.

[CELL55]

It's certainly up for plenty of debating over whether Lyrium enhances Templar abilities or is even necessary. I honestly don't know what it does for 'normal' people, but for mages it seems to work like blood magic in that it provides a butt ton of power really quickly.

[dragonflight288]

As for templar abilities themselves, the only thing that separates templars from spirit mages is that spirit mages have more powerful versions of the spells. Many spells from the school of spirit also only work on mages (mana drain, mana clash, that shield that absorbs spells, etc)

I personally believe, based on the fact that the Warden can call templar abilities magic and that the templar abilities are practically carbon copies of the school of spirit spells, albeit weaker and with different names, that the templars themselves may be lesser spirit mages.

Add in regular people can become spirit warriors and are often mistaken for mages because of their borderline magical abilities they gain from spirits in the fade and how the chantry has the tendency to call any form of magic not in its control maleficarum. Wynne even calls Morrigan a maleficar not because of blood magic but because of her ability to shapeshift. Not blood magic, but the chantry and the loyalists don't care.

I think the templars do use magic from the school of spirit and don't admit it.

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

As for templar abilities themselves, the only thing that separates templars from spirit mages is that spirit mages have more powerful versions of the spells. Many spells from the school of spirit also only work on mages (mana drain, mana clash, that shield that absorbs spells, etc)

I personally believe, based on the fact that the Warden can call templar abilities magic and that the templar abilities are practically carbon copies of the school of spirit spells, albeit weaker and with different names, that the templars themselves may be lesser spirit mages.

Add in regular people can become spirit warriors and are often mistaken for mages because of their borderline magical abilities they gain from spirits in the fade and how the chantry has the tendency to call any form of magic not in its control maleficarum. Wynne even calls Morrigan a maleficar not because of blood magic but because of her ability to shapeshift. Not blood magic, but the chantry and the loyalists don't care.

I think the templars do use magic from the school of spirit and don't admit it.

Do you have a quote for Wynne calling Morrigan a maleficar specifically because of her shapshifting abilities and not the blood magic?  I'd like to see that for myself, if possible.  

I'd be interested to see what the effects of lyrium would be on a templar who had been exposed to it for some number of years, and then procreated.  Given the physical effects that lyrium causes to a person's body, I wonder what excessive lyrium exposure would do to a woman's reproductive system, and if children born to a woman with many years of lyrium addiction would have birth "defects" or what-have-you.  Given lyrium's relationship to the Fade and to magical ability, could it cause a child to be born a mage who would otherwise have been born a mundane?