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[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

Do you have a quote for Wynne calling Morrigan a maleficar specifically because of her shapshifting abilities and not the blood magic? I'd like to see that for myself, if possible

IIRC, it only happens if you're romancing her and Wynne gives her little speech about the blossoming relationship.

And if you're romancing Morrigan, Alistair calls her maleficar as well, despite her being very clearly a shapeshifter and not a blood mage.

[Fallstar]

Was it ever suggested that maleficar had to be blood mages? I thought apostates were called maleficar when they did something evil/the chantry didn't agree with, blood mage or no. EG an apostate who sets a village on fire without being a blood mage would still be a maleficarum.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 24 juillet 2012 - 09:56 .

[TEWR]

Maleficarum is in fact, by the way the Chantry defines it, a word that means blood mage -- see here.

However, the Chantry is often want to use it as a buzzword for any magic that isn't authorized by them. To them, all apostates are maleficarum.

Also Silfren, in regards to the whole Sacred Ashes thing, it should be mentioned that Wynne will state that the Gauntlet itself is practically infused with magic. Just thought it worth a mention.

[Silfren]

DuskWarden wrote...

Was it ever suggested that maleficar had to be blood mages? I thought apostates were called maleficar when they did something evil/the chantry didn't agree with, blood mage or no. EG an apostate who sets a village on fire without being a blood mage would still be a maleficarum.

This is one of the details in which Bioware's construction of the Chantry and its relationship to apostates mirrors real world problems beautifully. 

Technically, yes, by the Chantry's own terminology, a maleficar is a mage who has used blood magic and violated the Chantry's dictums.  Note this: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Maleficarum The author of that text opens by indicating that maleficarum are mages who use magic specifically to harm and dominate others, but the very last paragraph is vague enough to be open to considerable interpretation, the way it implies that any mage who is not a strident Andrastian is de facto a maleficar.

The Codex on apostates spells out the difference while acknowledging that apostate and maleficar are nevertheless often used synonymously.  And there are rerefences in Origins that indicate this is not an uncommon misinterpretation.  Especially when the Chantry holds that any mage not under its direct authority is apostate, and suggests that any mage who WANTED to be considered a law-abiding good citizen would submit to Chantry authority, and that any that don't clearly must be maleficar, because of course GOOD little mages would willingly go into the Circle.

It's a vicious cycle.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Maleficarum is in fact, by the way the Chantry defines it, a word that means blood mage -- see here.

However, the Chantry is often want to use it as a buzzword for any magic that isn't authorized by them. To them, all apostates are maleficarum.

Also Silfren, in regards to the whole Sacred Ashes thing, it should be mentioned that Wynne will state that the Gauntlet itself is practically infused with magic. Just thought it worth a mention.

Interestingly, the wikia entry on maleficar (Not the Codex Entry on maleficarum) states that maleficar literally means "one who is depraved" in Old Tevene (which I assume was the ancient language of Tevinter), and does implicate any forbidden magic, not just blood magic.  Not sure how much weight this is to be given, but I think it's true enough that the Chantry regards any magic not sanctioned for study within its circles as a forbidden art on par with blood magic.  Hell, it looks suspiciously on spirit healers even though that is a sanctioned practice.

Re: Sacred Ashes.  I'd love there to be a plausible alternative explanation for the healing ashes, but I just don't buy the lyrium as one of them.  I'd really like more than random, tossaway lines from companions.  If Wynne has something to say about the Gauntlet being infused with magic, I'd like that idea to be somewhat more explored.  She preaches about everything else.  Why not a cutscene offering a theory or two?  My point is that Bioware went out of its way to make the whole thing about the Maker and Andraste ambiguous, and that quest destroyed it all.  Lines that you only get when you bring certain companions along, and being only brief, easily forgettable mentions when you do get them, really don't do much to balance things out. 

[dragonflight288]

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Maleficarum is in fact, by the way the Chantry defines it, a word that means blood mage -- see here.

However, the Chantry is often want to use it as a buzzword for any magic that isn't authorized by them. To them, all apostates are maleficarum.

Also Silfren, in regards to the whole Sacred Ashes thing, it should be mentioned that Wynne will state that the Gauntlet itself is practically infused with magic. Just thought it worth a mention.

Interestingly, the wikia entry on maleficar (Not the Codex Entry on maleficarum) states that maleficar literally means "one who is depraved" in Old Tevene (which I assume was the ancient language of Tevinter), and does implicate any forbidden magic, not just blood magic.  Not sure how much weight this is to be given, but I think it's true enough that the Chantry regards any magic not sanctioned for study within its circles as a forbidden art on par with blood magic.  Hell, it looks suspiciously on spirit healers even though that is a sanctioned practice.

Re: Sacred Ashes.  I'd love there to be a plausible alternative explanation for the healing ashes, but I just don't buy the lyrium as one of them.  I'd really like more than random, tossaway lines from companions.  If Wynne has something to say about the Gauntlet being infused with magic, I'd like that idea to be somewhat more explored.  She preaches about everything else.  Why not a cutscene offering a theory or two?  My point is that Bioware went out of its way to make the whole thing about the Maker and Andraste ambiguous, and that quest destroyed it all.  Lines that you only get when you bring certain companions along, and being only brief, easily forgettable mentions when you do get them, really don't do much to balance things out. 

But as there is enough evidence in other areas that question the divine nature of Andraste (the book in Orzammar that claims she's a mage being an example) do balance it out.

Granted, I see where you're coming from as only those who brought Oghren to the mountain would know the mountain was chalk full of lyrium.

If your cunning is high enough, you can talk to the guardian and learn he was there, marching with Andraste centuries ealier, however, so something has to influence his longevity. Is he a spirit? A person who magically never ages?

If he's a spirt, that would lend credence to Andraste being a mage, but if he's a person who never ages then that would be evidence of the healing properties of lyrium in a magically infused mountain...or evidence of his connection to the Ashes which happen to be in a lyrium filled mountain.

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

Re: Sacred Ashes.  I'd love there to be a plausible alternative explanation for the healing ashes, but I just don't buy the lyrium as one of them.  I'd really like more than random, tossaway lines from companions.  If Wynne has something to say about the Gauntlet being infused with magic, I'd like that idea to be somewhat more explored.  She preaches about everything else.  Why not a cutscene offering a theory or two?  My point is that Bioware went out of its way to make the whole thing about the Maker and Andraste ambiguous, and that quest destroyed it all.  Lines that you only get when you bring certain companions along, and being only brief, easily forgettable mentions when you do get them, really don't do much to balance things out. 

Oh I understand. I doubt you'll really see much of a reason as to why the Ashes are magical that stems from something not of their religious importance.

There's codex entries and such stating that Havard was healed by the Ashes in Minrathous after crawling there when Maferath grievously wounded him. Then there's Maferath's Canticle stating that he had a vision of Andraste.
I very much doubt that there is any alternate explanation that also seems plausible. Though the wiki states that Oghren doesn't just state the presence of lyrium as a factor, but how pure it is. Perhaps the level of purity is contributing to the healing powers? Though if the stories of Havard are true, that's probably not the case.

The lyrium itself probably imbued the Temple with magical properties that -- while not causing the Ashes to be magical -- have caused the Gauntlet itself to be magical.

It's known in the Fade that if you approach the raw lyrium there, it'll heal you. Similarly, lyrium runes can be made to provide bonuses to constitution and health.

Morrigan will state when approaching the Urn in ambient dialogue that it's powerful magic. Now, I don't think we can say the reasons for its healing magic are due to being Maker-blessed or even due to lyrium -- unless the purity of the veins is a factor in the lethality of lyrium -- but perhaps this points to Andraste being an OGB Somniari Mage?

I can't say. If so, it'd certainly lend itself well to alternate theories independent of Andrastian belief, IMO. At the very least, it'd be something.

Certainly, the lyrium must be contributing to the presence of the Guardian and the 8 spectral images of people important in Andraste's life. Perhaps the lyrium is trapping the magic of the Ashes in there? The description of the pinch of Ashes says that it's still warm, as if just taken from the fires that consumed Andraste.

It's also known through dialogue with Justice that lyrium sings. And Andraste was supposedly a woman with an astonishing singing voice. Then there's the Old Gods' song as well. Hmm...

Honestly, if I had all the lore of Thedas that we've seen sitting in front of me, I could probably come up with some sort of decent alternate explanation as to their magical properties that leaves the world ambiguous on the existence of the Maker, but... for some reason my keyboard wants to be annoying and double type every letter. Also, I'd probably end up going in circles studying the lore.

Nevertheless, I doubt we'll get an in-depth alternate explanation -- whether it be relating to the lyrium or some other one.

Personally, I see all the religions in Thedas as being true. But I'd still enjoy being able to roleplay skeptics and even atheists as I did in DAO.