1081 réponses à ce sujet

[Khajiit Jzargo]

The Angry One 

You should have never made the Hitler anology, even though it made perfect sense, people will judge it as nonsense just because of "Godwin's law"

[o Ventus]

Optimystic_X wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

I asked if Legion said a specific thing. You did not provide it.

Of course I did. The Geth understood what Reapers were. They had several theories and the trip to the Collector Base allowed them to decide on which one was right (i.e. "billions of organic minds.")

Did you even play ME2? You must have, going by your avatar, but I'm honestly not sure.

No, you didn't.

You cannot tell me what I was looking for.

Again, I asked if whether ot not Legion had said something about Sovereign being "overwhelming". Neither of you quotes had to do with that.

[The Angry One]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

You're absolutely correct. We shouldn't let real facts, like Shepard barely being able to walk, or the Keeper you pass by on the way to that room, get in the way of the issues as you see them.

Alright, the Catalyst can make the Keepers do whatever it wants and go wherever it wants.
Like for example opening the Citadel relay in ME1. This is why ME2 and ME3 never happened.

[KotorEffect3]

Grimwick wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

mcz2345 wrote...

That is the reason why I picked it

????????????????

'Oh sure, Harbinger. I'll just walk right into that beam of energy of yours, that's what you want, right?'

Nobody if forcing you into the beam.

Irrelevant. It is stupid to do something the reapers want in this case, it is stupid independent of whether you actually did it.

So becaue it is an option that reapers agree with it is automaticaly invalid although it works out better for everybody in the end,  thus ending the war?  If it stops the harvesting and allows galactic civilization to rebuild itself who cares if it is something the reapers want?  The reapers don't have an agenda other than to stop synthetics and organics from warring each other.  It is their methods that went completely wrong.

[Fiery Phoenix]

mcz2345 wrote...

YOU DON'T SAY !

That is the whole point of it <_<

So, I take it you concede that submitting to Their Excellency is a "better" way than wiping the floor with them?

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 05 juillet 2012 - 08:02 .

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

They understand what the Reapers are.
They don't understand how the Reapers think.

Do you have to understand fire to know that when it burns, it's only doing what it was created to do?

Missing the point entirely.

And what exactly is your "point?" That Reapers want Synthesis? Of course they do, so what?

Your problem is that there are multiple explanations for why the anti-Reaper device includes a function to make peace with the Reapers, and you are latching onto the least sensible one, then using it to reject the entire scenario (and by extension, denigrate those who accept it.)

[Ghurshog]

The Angry One wrote...

This is 100% fact, shown within the game when the head Reaper itself not only promotes synthesis as the best thing ever, but admits that it tried it before.

No this isn't about the morality or lack thereof of synthesis, there are enough topics about that.
Here I ask.... if we are to believe that the Crucible was designed by some unknown organic race and improved upon in the following eons... why does it have an option for synthesis?

Not only is it what the Reapers want. But think about this. Really think about this. The people who designed/added to the Crucible wouldn't be thinking "We need to merge with synthetics for greater understanding/final evolution of life/blah blah blah!". They'd be thinking "Oh my god those giant metal cuttlefish are going to kill us, we need to build something to stop them."
I really have to wonder what kind of mentality would see giant metal killbots and think "You know what would be a good idea? Merging our bodies with them!".

The Crucible is a giant power source nothing more. Its original intent is unknown by anyone including the catalyst. 

The citadel already had the Destroy/Control options and the Crucible gives it the 'power' to 'reach' everything in the galaxy. However the catalyst being a machine realizes that with that much power and past experiments another viable option presents itself. 

Regardless of lore aspect Synthesis is the option that gives you the '...and they all lived happily ever after" ending. Just like it did in each of the 3 Deus Ex games.

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

What I don't get is this:

Do people really think that because the Catalyst presents the options that those options are specifically what IT wants?

I mean, in ME1, Joker tells you can either save or kill Council, does that mean it's what Joker wants?

In ME2, TIM tells you about destroying the base, then gives you the option to keep the base. Does that mean it's what TIM wants? (Actually in this instance yes it is, you wouldn't have the option to keep the base, and some people actually trusted TIM by this point foolishly enough).

The question I have to ask is: Without the Catalyst, how would you have ANY idea which option lead to which choice. Trial and error? TAO's assertion is that the Catalyst is an antagonist, therefore he taints the ending choices with it's own directive. But in reality, the Catalyst is a plot device, designed as a mo0uth-piece to tell the players what options they have.

This is off topic but I'll humor you.

Method a) Reveal the choices during the game and possibly allow these choices to occur during the game instead of the end.

Mehod  Include the Catalyst as either a Crucible instruction VI, or in it's current role but as a passive observer/slave of the Reapers/etc. that has no responsibility for what the Reapers perpetrate.

[PsyrenY]

o Ventus wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

I asked if Legion said a specific thing. You did not provide it.

Of course I did. The Geth understood what Reapers were. They had several theories and the trip to the Collector Base allowed them to decide on which one was right (i.e. "billions of organic minds.")

Did you even play ME2? You must have, going by your avatar, but I'm honestly not sure.

No, you didn't.

You cannot tell me what I was looking for.

Again, I asked if whether ot not Legion had said something about Sovereign being "overwhelming". Neither of you quotes had to do with that.

Which was in response to my own assertion that the Geth understood what the Reapers were. Even if their thoughts were enigmatic, they were still able to form conclusions on their nature.

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

And what exactly is your "point?" That Reapers want Synthesis? Of course they do, so what?

Your problem is that there are multiple explanations for why the anti-Reaper device includes a function to make peace with the Reapers, and you are latching onto the least sensible one, then using it to reject the entire scenario (and by extension, denigrate those who accept it.)

That EDI is suddenly speaking in terms of thoughts she can't even imagine.
Disturbingly close to Reaper talk.

[Baronesa]

RiouHotaru wrote...

What I don't get is this:

Do people really think that because the Catalyst presents the options that those options are specifically what IT wants?

I mean, in ME1, Joker tells you can either save or kill Council, does that mean it's what Joker wants?

In ME2, TIM tells you about destroying the base, then gives you the option to keep the base. Does that mean it's what TIM wants? (Actually in this instance yes it is, you wouldn't have the option to keep the base, and some people actually trusted TIM by this point foolishly enough).

The question I have to ask is: Without the Catalyst, how would you have ANY idea which option lead to which choice. Trial and error? TAO's assertion is that the Catalyst is an antagonist, therefore he taints the ending choices with it's own directive. But in reality, the Catalyst is a plot device, designed as a mo0uth-piece to tell the players what options they have.

 a plot device totally unneeded.

you remove the Catalyst and can arrive at a good conclusion.

Info dump?

the prothean VI.

EDI

Liara

a message from the Geth


But the Catalyst by it's nature, by controlling the Reapers, IT is an antagonist.

Also you are omiting things about the argument

Destroy: Sure the Catalyst and reapers die... but you achieve THEIR GOAL by destroying synthetics.  

Control: you replace the Catalyst as a new AI...  Reapers are preserved... and you could restart the cycle (or could not)

Synthesis: What the catalyst wanted, it does even SAY SO IN DIALOGUE.

All 3 options accomplish either part or the full purpose of the Reapers.

[RiouHotaru]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
You should have never made the Hitler anology, even though it made perfect sense, people will judge it as nonsense just because of "Godwin's law"

Except it isn't.  Hitler's (might as well since we're going off the deep end) views of the Jews were based off a personal racial bias, not out of anything remotely resembling fact.

The Catalyst's solution is based off the countless encounters of organics and synthetics.  It cannot, by default, be racially biased.  The vague reference to a "final solution" being used by both is hyperbole at best.  Again, the point of Godwin's law is to avoid the comparison because the comparison is usually always an exaggeration.

[wantedman dan]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
You should have never made the Hitler anology, even though it made perfect sense, people will judge it as nonsense just because of "Godwin's law"

Except it isn't.  Hitler's (might as well since we're going off the deep end) views of the Jews were based off a personal racial bias, not out of anything remotely resembling fact.

The Catalyst's solution is based off the countless encounters of organics and synthetics.  It cannot, by default, be racially biased.  The vague reference to a "final solution" being used by both is hyperbole at best.  Again, the point of Godwin's law is to avoid the comparison because the comparison is usually always an exaggeration.

You do realize that the ENTIRETY of the Catalyst's argument is based on logical fallacy, correct?

[Rhayak]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

So becaue it is an option that reapers agree with it is automaticaly invalid although it works out better for everybody in the end,  thus ending the war?  If it stops the harvesting and allows galactic civilization to rebuild itself who cares if it is something the reapers want?  The reapers don't have an agenda other than to stop synthetics and organics from warring each other.  It is their methods that went completely wrong.

Word

[zambot]

wantedman dan wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
You should have never made the Hitler anology, even though it made perfect sense, people will judge it as nonsense just because of "Godwin's law"

Except it isn't.  Hitler's (might as well since we're going off the deep end) views of the Jews were based off a personal racial bias, not out of anything remotely resembling fact.

The Catalyst's solution is based off the countless encounters of organics and synthetics.  It cannot, by default, be racially biased.  The vague reference to a "final solution" being used by both is hyperbole at best.  Again, the point of Godwin's law is to avoid the comparison because the comparison is usually always an exaggeration.

You do realize that the ENTIRETY of the Catalyst's argument is based on logical fallacy, correct?

Not only that, but the entire ending is based on space magic that has no basis at all in reality or even the reality that was created by the fiction itself.  It's utter nonsense.  And yet, people are still trying to tell other people why such and such choice is evil or wrong.  wtf really.  wtf.  

[savionen]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
You should have never made the Hitler anology, even though it made perfect sense, people will judge it as nonsense just because of "Godwin's law"

Except it isn't.  Hitler's (might as well since we're going off the deep end) views of the Jews were based off a personal racial bias, not out of anything remotely resembling fact.

The Catalyst's solution is based off the countless encounters of organics and synthetics.  It cannot, by default, be racially biased.  The vague reference to a "final solution" being used by both is hyperbole at best.  Again, the point of Godwin's law is to avoid the comparison because the comparison is usually always an exaggeration.

The Catalyst's theories were never proven, so no. They're theories, and there's no evidence ingame either.

[o Ventus]

Optimystic_X wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

I asked if Legion said a specific thing. You did not provide it.

Of course I did. The Geth understood what Reapers were. They had several theories and the trip to the Collector Base allowed them to decide on which one was right (i.e. "billions of organic minds.")

Did you even play ME2? You must have, going by your avatar, but I'm honestly not sure.

No, you didn't.

You cannot tell me what I was looking for.

Again, I asked if whether ot not Legion had said something about Sovereign being "overwhelming". Neither of you quotes had to do with that.

Which was in response to my own assertion that the Geth understood what the Reapers were. Even if their thoughts were enigmatic, they were still able to form conclusions on their nature.

The fact that Legion says "it was one hypothesis among many" means they don't understand the Reapers that well.

[bleetman]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Do people really think that because the Catalyst presents the options that those options are specifically what IT wants?

Not necessarily, but since the Catalyst flat out says it's tried synthesis before on its own, I would say synthesis is definiately something it wants to accomplish.

[KotorEffect3]

Rhayak wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

So becaue it is an option that reapers agree with it is automaticaly invalid although it works out better for everybody in the end,  thus ending the war?  If it stops the harvesting and allows galactic civilization to rebuild itself who cares if it is something the reapers want?  The reapers don't have an agenda other than to stop synthetics and organics from warring each other.  It is their methods that went completely wrong.

Word

Funny how only one person acknowledged what I said there while all of my haters completely ignored that. 

[Allan Schumacher]

Destroy: Sure the Catalyst and reapers die... but you achieve THEIR GOAL by destroying synthetics.

Synthesis: What the catalyst wanted, it does even SAY SO IN DIALOGUE.

The Catalyst states that choosing destroy will result in the cycle starting again without any sort of restriction. Using the Catalyst's words, their goal has been about the preservation of organic life.

Even if the destroy ending destroys all currently existing synthetics, if we're already taking the Catalyst's words as evidence, then we can definitively conclude that choosing destroy does not accomplish, in any way, the purpose of the Reapers. It's decidedly not what the Catalyst wanted, even excluding any sort of self preservation.

Nothing is stopping synthetic life from being created again. The Catalyst states this is actually inevitable. Whether or not they're doomed to fight organics is up to the future to prove the Catalyst wrong.


My $0.02

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 05 juillet 2012 - 08:12 .

[Cutlass Jack]

The Angry One wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

You're absolutely correct. We shouldn't let real facts, like Shepard barely being able to walk, or the Keeper you pass by on the way to that room, get in the way of the issues as you see them.

Alright, the Catalyst can make the Keepers do whatever it wants and go wherever it wants.
Like for example opening the Citadel relay in ME1. This is why ME2 and ME3 never happened.

I thought it pretty obvious by that point in ME3 that they regained control of the Citadel. You know, because it moved. And those very same doors shut. And because we saw that Keeper busy doing its thing for them.

But perhaps I'm wrong and the Keepers just took the Citadel for a joyride on its own. Or perhaps my wife was right when she joked that Keeper was really the true form of the Catalyst. (Oz: "Ignore the Keeper in the hallway!")

Still doesn't change that if it were truly 100% fact that Synthesis was what they really wanted, he wouldn't have told you the truth about what the other buttons did. Thats one fact thats inescapable.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

savionen wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
You should have never made the Hitler anology, even though it made perfect sense, people will judge it as nonsense just because of "Godwin's law"

Except it isn't.  Hitler's (might as well since we're going off the deep end) views of the Jews were based off a personal racial bias, not out of anything remotely resembling fact.

The Catalyst's solution is based off the countless encounters of organics and synthetics.  It cannot, by default, be racially biased.  The vague reference to a "final solution" being used by both is hyperbole at best.  Again, the point of Godwin's law is to avoid the comparison because the comparison is usually always an exaggeration.

The Catalyst's theories were never proven, so no. They're theories, and there's no evidence ingame either.

Basically this, The catalyst is to flawed and unlogical to make anything out of him.

[wantedman dan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The Catalyst states that choosing destroy will result in the cycle starting again without any sort of restriction. Using the Catalyst's words, their goal has been about the preservation of organic life.

Which was proven to be completely false by their willingness to destroy it, only moments before. If the true intention was to preserve organic life, would the Catalyst have allowed Harbinger to eradicate those running down to the beam?

Of course not.

Even if the destroy ending destroys all currently existing synthetics, if we're already taking the Catalyst's words as evidence, then we can definitively conclude that choosing destroy does not accomplish, in any way, the purpose of the Reapers. It's decidedly not what the Catalyst wanted, even excluding any sort of self preservation.

Preservation of organics by not having synthetics destroy them.

Nothing is stopping synthetic life from being created again. The Catalyst states this is actually inevitable. Whether or not they're doomed to fight organics is up to the future to prove the Catalyst wrong.

And appealing to the probability that they will do so as a definite circumstance is wrong.

[Torrible]

zambot wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
You should have never made the Hitler anology, even though it made perfect sense, people will judge it as nonsense just because of "Godwin's law"

Except it isn't.  Hitler's (might as well since we're going off the deep end) views of the Jews were based off a personal racial bias, not out of anything remotely resembling fact.

The Catalyst's solution is based off the countless encounters of organics and synthetics.  It cannot, by default, be racially biased.  The vague reference to a "final solution" being used by both is hyperbole at best.  Again, the point of Godwin's law is to avoid the comparison because the comparison is usually always an exaggeration.

You do realize that the ENTIRETY of the Catalyst's argument is based on logical fallacy, correct?

Not only that, but the entire ending is based on space magic that has no basis at all in reality or even the reality that was created by the fiction itself.  It's utter nonsense.  And yet, people are still trying to tell other people why such and such choice is evil or wrong.  wtf really.  wtf.  

Unexplained technology is not space magic. It has basis in the MEU reality. It may seem like magic to primitives like us of course. Consider things that are already achievable pre-synthesis: Shepard coming back from the dead, 20 times light speed travel, fully self-aware A.I. 

[AngryFrozenWater]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

They understand what the Reapers are.
They don't understand how the Reapers think.

Do you have to understand fire to know that when it burns, it's only doing what it was created to do?

Get your pocket calculator ready...

Let's calculate, just for fun, what would happen if the reapers exterminated Earth's current population in each cycle. Just for fun. The actual size of a galaxy population would be much larger, but let's see where it gets us.

A billion years. So type: 1000000000 (a 1 followed by 9 zeroes).
Press the divide.
Enter 50000 (a 5 followed by 4 zeroes).
Press multiply.
Enter 7000000000 (the current population of Earth, a 7 with 9 zeroes).
Press total.

You got all that, big boy?

The reapers would have killed 140,000,000,000,000 organics.

Just a number, right? Just because of a "cleansing fire".

Usually they lock people up who have no empathy. They have a name for it. You figure it out.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 juillet 2012 - 08:13 .