1081 réponses à ce sujet

[silentassassin264]

The Reapers want synthesis and I have no problem with that. They end up happy and not omnicidal and my Shep ended up happy that they were all saved (before she dissolved into her "energy"). Win-win if you ask me.

[ghost9191]

so to prevent a technological singularity, they use synthetics to kill organics so that organics won't be surpassed by synthetics. that right there is cause to destroy the reapers.

and the only option the catalyst and reapers want is synthesis , the catalyst itself says it doesn't want to give up power in control but the crucible was designed to do control or destroy. if the catalyst wasn't there you could still do them, but you couldn't do synthesis. it takes both shep and the catalyst for that

[Khajiit Jzargo]

wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

You physically changed people without their consent but you didn't brainwash them.  You changed them physically that is all,  you didn't change who they are,  you didn't take away their free will or their memories.  You changed their dna.  It really isn't much different than what the lazarus project did to shepard.

That's why everyone is so tickled to death to accept the Reapers, despite the atrocities they committed only moments before, right?

Took the words out of my mouth.

[zambot]

Let us take a moment to reflect on how awesome this thread is. When I first read this thread, I thought it would be buried along side countless other "bash the ending I didn't choose" threads. But no, this thread DELIVERS!

1. 17 pages in about 4 hours
2. Two Godwins, including one by the OP
3. A response by a Bioware employee.

Few threads top this on the awesome meter.

[KotorEffect3]

wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

You physically changed people without their consent but you didn't brainwash them.  You changed them physically that is all,  you didn't change who they are,  you didn't take away their free will or their memories.  You changed their dna.  It really isn't much different than what the lazarus project did to shepard.

That's why everyone is so tickled to death to accept the Reapers, despite the atrocities they committed only moments before, right?

Once again you are basing that off of one epilogue slide.  It isn't about whether or not people are happy to have the reapers around.  It is irrelevant.  Just because the epilogue doesn't show some crazy person doing a suicide run on a destroyer doesn't mean it may not happen.  The only function of that particular epilogue slide was to show how the reapers themselves have a different role than they had before.

[ghost9191]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

You physically changed people without their consent but you didn't brainwash them.  You changed them physically that is all,  you didn't change who they are,  you didn't take away their free will or their memories.  You changed their dna.  It really isn't much different than what the lazarus project did to shepard.

That's why everyone is so tickled to death to accept the Reapers, despite the atrocities they committed only moments before, right?

Took the words out of my mouth.

ok i get your opinion and what not but how in the hell is synthesis even remotely like what lazarus project did to shep?

[Memnon]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Shepard is an outlier.  And you usually ignore outliers in probability unless they occur more than once, in which case they stop being outliers and start being relevant.  Remember, the Catalyst isn't human, and doesn't think like one.

Since you bring up probability, how many times do you have to observe something before you can assume it will happen the same way infinitely. More importantly, how many times do you have to do this before you build an AI and arm it with warships to prevent it from happening infinitely ...

[KotorEffect3]

Auckmid wrote...

Yes, you are correct. Synthesis is the only ending where you actualy go along with the reapers plan.

And it doesn't matter, the reapers don't have an agenda just a function

[RiouHotaru]

wantedman dan wrote...

The problem being a) it is by its own design, thus making the propecy one of self-fulfillment, and still an appeal to probability.

Pointing to irrationality to excuse irrationality is... kinda sad, really.

If I make a sandwich, leave it on the table, and the dog jumps on the chair, and eats it, that's one occurance.  But if it happens multiple times, heck, let's say EVERY time I leave the sandwich, the dog eats it, then I have a pattern.  So I have no reason to believe that, after lets say 10 times?  That on the 11th, if I make that sandwich and set it on the table, that the dog won't eat it again.

Same thing with the Catalyst.  It's not an illogical argument to assume repetition of a pattern.

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Actually, if anything TAO, you're the one inflicting headcanon.

According to the game, Synthesis results in a utopian-esque society wherein synthetics and organics have the ability to understand and cooperate, and are connected by what seems to be a voluntary collective linking of consciousness.  This allows for beings to understand one another on a level not thought possible before, and is implied that it could lead them to completely transcend their current existence altogether and become something completely new.

You interpret this as some sort of dark, sinister agenda on the part of the Reapers to enslave everyone via a mass conversion that turns everyone is pretty-looking husks.

The only one with headcanon is you.

I look at things logically with the themes of Mass Effect, and common sense.
Nowhere else in the trilogy are the Reaper's desires promoted as correct. You read the codex entries on what the Reapers are doing on Earth and tell me people would be okay with them merrily stomping around in their cities.
Listen to EDI. Listen to Legion. Listen to Mordin. The things these characters say, then compare them with synthesis.

That is not headcanon, that is continuity.

[wantedman dan]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

You physically changed people without their consent but you didn't brainwash them.  You changed them physically that is all,  you didn't change who they are,  you didn't take away their free will or their memories.  You changed their dna.  It really isn't much different than what the lazarus project did to shepard.

That's why everyone is so tickled to death to accept the Reapers, despite the atrocities they committed only moments before, right?

Once again you are basing that off of one epilogue slide.  It isn't about whether or not people are happy to have the reapers around.  It is irrelevant.  Just because the epilogue doesn't show some crazy person doing a suicide run on a destroyer doesn't mean it may not happen.  The only function of that particular epilogue slide was to show how the reapers themselves have a different role than they had before.

And what are you basing your nonsense off of? Headcanon?

The point is, the galaxy and the Reapers are shown side-by-side, practically holding hands. "They even helped us rebuild," I believe EDI said something like that. You're telling me that everything is going to be immediately hunky-dory, sunshine and rainbows between the two?

[Allan Schumacher]

I probably shouldn't get too involved, but just one more response won't hurt right?

wantedman dan wrote...

Which was proven to be completely false by their willingness to destroy it, only moments before. If the true intention was to preserve organic life, would the Catalyst have allowed Harbinger to eradicate those running down to the beam?

Of course not.

Of course the Catalyst would.  Any threat to achieving its objective would be dealt with.  The loss of a few lives is inconsequential to it.  You're thinking on far too much of a microlevel.  To have the goal of preserving organics does NOT require them to preserve every single organic lifeform.

If your goal is to stop more loss of life in a war, and some belligerent people with violent opposition towards that goal come at you and you end up killing them, it doesn't undermine your overall goal.

Preservation of organics by not having synthetics destroy them.

All organics are not being killed.  Your point is invalid.  No one, not even the Catalyst, has stated that the goal is to preserve 100% of all organic life forms, even the ones that are belligerently resisting through violent means and present a threat to achieving the overall objective.  The fact that the Catalyst is killing some organic (and synthetic in the case of the Geth) life doesn't undermine the overall objective.

And appealing to the probability that they will do so as a definite circumstance is wrong.

I agree.  It's why I picked Destroy.  The fact that I could reconcile the Geth and Quarians was all the proof I needed that the Catalyst's assertions were false.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

You physically changed people without their consent but you didn't brainwash them.  You changed them physically that is all,  you didn't change who they are,  you didn't take away their free will or their memories.  You changed their dna.  It really isn't much different than what the lazarus project did to shepard.

That's why everyone is so tickled to death to accept the Reapers, despite the atrocities they committed only moments before, right?

Once again you are basing that off of one epilogue slide.  It isn't about whether or not people are happy to have the reapers around.  It is irrelevant.  Just because the epilogue doesn't show some crazy person doing a suicide run on a destroyer doesn't mean it may not happen.  The only function of that particular epilogue slide was to show how the reapers themselves have a different role than they had before.

Then explain to me why EDI is so happy to work with the Reapers when she told me a few hours earlier she would rather die, than to co-exist with them. Also, the Geth, Like Legion who specifically hated the Reapers because they wanted to create their own future instead of one that would deal to co-exist the reapers. And no, it's not one slide, its various cutscenes/slides to show how organics/synthetics are co-existing with the Reapers, it was purposely put into the game to send that message, if Bioware intended to put another message, they wouldn't have put all those scenes.

[KotorEffect3]

ghost9191 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

You physically changed people without their consent but you didn't brainwash them.  You changed them physically that is all,  you didn't change who they are,  you didn't take away their free will or their memories.  You changed their dna.  It really isn't much different than what the lazarus project did to shepard.

That's why everyone is so tickled to death to accept the Reapers, despite the atrocities they committed only moments before, right?

Took the words out of my mouth.

ok i get your opinion and what not but how in the hell is synthesis even remotely like what lazarus project did to shep?

It physically changed shepard and made him partly synthetic with cybernetic implants.  This becomes very apparent if you play as renegade Shepard in ME 2 and ME 3.   The catalyst even mentions how shepard is partly synthetic when he is presenting shepard with the different choices.  That may be one reason why synthesis becomes a viable option since it is Shepard who is both organic and synthetic who is jumping into the beam.

[Fiery Phoenix]

You seem to be the first BioWare employee who remotely likes Destroy, Allan. It's a nice change of pace.

[zambot]

wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

You physically changed people without their consent but you didn't brainwash them.  You changed them physically that is all,  you didn't change who they are,  you didn't take away their free will or their memories.  You changed their dna.  It really isn't much different than what the lazarus project did to shepard.

That's why everyone is so tickled to death to accept the Reapers, despite the atrocities they committed only moments before, right?

Once again you are basing that off of one epilogue slide.  It isn't about whether or not people are happy to have the reapers around.  It is irrelevant.  Just because the epilogue doesn't show some crazy person doing a suicide run on a destroyer doesn't mean it may not happen.  The only function of that particular epilogue slide was to show how the reapers themselves have a different role than they had before.

And what are you basing your nonsense off of? Headcanon?

The point is, the galaxy and the Reapers are shown side-by-side, practically holding hands. "They even helped us rebuild," I believe EDI said something like that. You're telling me that everything is going to be immediately hunky-dory, sunshine and rainbows between the two?

Why not?  It is:
a. Shown that way by the writers
b. Explained that humanity and synthetics have achieved ultimate knowledge an understanding.  It is not far-fetched to imagine that an enlightened civilization would work together with its enemies to rebuild after war.

Sure, it's utter bs and has no grounding in reality, but hey that's synthesis: space magic.

[wantedman dan]

RiouHotaru wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

The problem being a) it is by its own design, thus making the propecy one of self-fulfillment, and still an appeal to probability.

Pointing to irrationality to excuse irrationality is... kinda sad, really.

If I make a sandwich, leave it on the table, and the dog jumps on the chair, and eats it, that's one occurance.  But if it happens multiple times, heck, let's say EVERY time I leave the sandwich, the dog eats it, then I have a pattern.  So I have no reason to believe that, after lets say 10 times?  That on the 11th, if I make that sandwich and set it on the table, that the dog won't eat it again.

Same thing with the Catalyst.  It's not an illogical argument to assume repetition of a pattern.

It is to assume that it will be the definite outcome.

Furthermore, if you wish to compare it to the cycle, it is a false analogy.

[wantedman dan]

zambot wrote...

Why not?  It is:
a. Shown that way by the writers
b. Explained that humanity and synthetics have achieved ultimate knowledge an understanding.  It is not far-fetched to imagine that an enlightened civilization would work together with its enemies to rebuild after war.

Sure, it's utter bs and has no grounding in reality, but hey that's synthesis: space magic.

Thus, you must assume there is a greater force at work.

[ghost9191]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

You physically changed people without their consent but you didn't brainwash them.  You changed them physically that is all,  you didn't change who they are,  you didn't take away their free will or their memories.  You changed their dna.  It really isn't much different than what the lazarus project did to shepard.

That's why everyone is so tickled to death to accept the Reapers, despite the atrocities they committed only moments before, right?

Took the words out of my mouth.

ok i get your opinion and what not but how in the hell is synthesis even remotely like what lazarus project did to shep?

It physically changed shepard and made him partly synthetic with cybernetic implants.  This becomes very apparent if you play as renegade Shepard in ME 2 and ME 3.   The catalyst even mentions how shepard is partly synthetic when he is presenting shepard with the different choices.  That may be one reason why synthesis becomes a viable option since it is Shepard who is both organic and synthetic who is jumping into the beam.

 yes but it doesn't change his dna, it just uses implants on him, to help restore his skin and what not , i just mean it doesn't change who he is, or what he is . just replaces some parts with cybernetics

[KotorEffect3]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

You physically changed people without their consent but you didn't brainwash them.  You changed them physically that is all,  you didn't change who they are,  you didn't take away their free will or their memories.  You changed their dna.  It really isn't much different than what the lazarus project did to shepard.

That's why everyone is so tickled to death to accept the Reapers, despite the atrocities they committed only moments before, right?

Once again you are basing that off of one epilogue slide.  It isn't about whether or not people are happy to have the reapers around.  It is irrelevant.  Just because the epilogue doesn't show some crazy person doing a suicide run on a destroyer doesn't mean it may not happen.  The only function of that particular epilogue slide was to show how the reapers themselves have a different role than they had before.

Then explain to me why EDI is so happy to work with the Reapers when she told me a few hours earlier she would rather die, than to co-exist with them. Also, the Geth, Like Legion who specifically hated the Reapers because they wanted to create their own future instead of one that would deal to co-exist the reapers. And no, it's not one slide, its various cutscenes/slides to show how organics/synthetics are co-existing with the Reapers, it was purposely put into the game to send that message, if Bioware intended to put another message, they wouldn't have put all those scenes.

Perspectives change, nobody knew what the reapers true function was until Shepard met up with the catalyst and when the synthesis energy blast hit everybody they probably gained an understanding of what the reapers function was thus making the reapers function as reapers obsolete.  Remember reapers is just a nickname that organics gave them not necessarily what the reapers themselves think of themselves as.

[Allan Schumacher]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

You seem to be the first BioWare employee who remotely likes Destroy, Allan. It's a nice change of pace.

I was a fan even with the original endings. 

Sucked to kill the Geth (though it was less certain in the original ending), but ultimately freeing the galaxy from Reaper influence is what my Shep wanted to do.

[zambot]

wantedman dan wrote...

zambot wrote...

Why not?  It is:
a. Shown that way by the writers
b. Explained that humanity and synthetics have achieved ultimate knowledge an understanding.  It is not far-fetched to imagine that an enlightened civilization would work together with its enemies to rebuild after war.

Sure, it's utter bs and has no grounding in reality, but hey that's synthesis: space magic.

Thus, you must assume there is a greater force at work.

I must assume no such thing.  I'm saying that if such a magic exists to create synthetic dna and instantly disperse it throughout the galaxy, magically achieving ultimate knowledge and understanding, then anything is possible, including accepting that peace and harmony breaks out with celebratory rainbow fireworks.  

[RiouHotaru]

The Angry One wrote...

I look at things logically with the themes of Mass Effect, and common sense.
Nowhere else in the trilogy are the Reaper's desires promoted as correct. You read the codex entries on what the Reapers are doing on Earth and tell me people would be okay with them merrily stomping around in their cities.
Listen to EDI. Listen to Legion. Listen to Mordin. The things these characters say, then compare them with synthesis.

That is not headcanon, that is continuity.

The Reapers desire to save organic life by uploading their consciousness into a Reaper Shell to prevent it from being forever lost due to annihilation by a synthetic race.  It was the only solution the Catalyst AND it's creators could come with at the time, because the one thing that would end the conflict entirely (Synthesis) wasn't possible.

The Catalyst's goal of ending the conflict via Synthesis is made possible via Shepard and the introduction of the Crucible, which allows him to give his previously impossible ideal solution the ability to manifest.

I remember Mordin and EDI and Legion.  They are all referring to the REAPER solution to the problem, not the Synthesis solution.  The Synthesis solution was deemed impossible by the Catalyst itself at the time anyway.

You're equating the "Turn organic civilizations into Reapers" as being the same as Synthesis.

It's not.

[Memnon]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I agree.  It's why I picked Destroy.  The fact that I could reconcile the Geth and Quarians was all the proof I needed that the Catalyst's assertions were false.

Absolutely agree with this - the Catalyst's programming is based on his creators' false premise. I'll take my chances without any outside help ...

[The Angry One]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

All organics are not being killed.  Your point is invalid.  No one, not even the Catalyst, has stated that the goal is to preserve 100% of all organic life forms, even the ones that are belligerently resisting through violent means and present a threat to achieving the overall objective.  The fact that the Catalyst is killing some organic (and synthetic in the case of the Geth) life doesn't undermine the overall objective.

"But you killed the rest."

"We helped them ascend."

Every time the subject is brought up, the Catalyst dodges the subject and claims "ascension".
Surely a truly logical, dispassionate and truthful AI will add "some deaths are necesarry for ultimate survival" or something like that.
Instead it twists the truth like a politician trying to convince you to vote for him.