1081 réponses à ce sujet

[zambot]

wantedman dan wrote...

zambot wrote...

You have no idea if it was "forced".  You are projecting that based on your own life views and experiences.  It is no secret that sci-fi transhumanistic utopia stories all share this belief that once a society reaches "ultimate knowledge" that all violence and hate is eliminated.  How do you know that the writers did not intend this?

Was there an "opt-out" feature within the impending wave of synthesis?

No, but synthesis did not force opinions or take away free will.  Or at least the writers did not indicate that.  It is possible that happened in your headcannon, but there is no canon that supports that.  The only thing synthesis "forced" was magical "synthetic integration".

[Lord Goose]

Maybe it was designed by some alien race, who considered that it is better just to give them that they want, instead of killing/hi-jacking them.

Personally I think that Crucible was created by Catalyst creators and it was original function.

[KotorEffect3]

wantedman dan wrote...

zambot wrote...

You have no idea if it was "forced".  You are projecting that based on your own life views and experiences.  It is no secret that sci-fi transhumanistic utopia stories all share this belief that once a society reaches "ultimate knowledge" that all violence and hate is eliminated.  How do you know that the writers did not intend this?

Was there an "opt-out" feature within the impending wave of synthesis?

The only ending that guarantees total freedom is destroy (well except for the geth)
In control we have reaper overlords
In synthesis everyone is changed
And in refuse, well everyone is dead

[The Angry One]

RiouHotaru wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

That is NOT the solution it's creators wanted.
Which part of "They did not approve." escapes you?

I'll keep quoting it:  "My creators gave them form."

You can't handwave this away.  Also, approval and agreement are not mutally exclusive.  It's entirely possible the Reaper solution was THEIR idea as well.  Just because they didn't necessarily like it doesn't mean they didn't choose it because it was only way for them to preserve themselves.

Want to play the quote game? Okay.

"The Reapers are a synthetic representation of my creators."

"And what happened to your creators?"

"They became the first true Reaper. They did not approve. But it was the only solution."

The Catalyst decided to make it's creators into the FIRST Reaper AGAINST their will.
They gave the Reapers form, because the Reapers are a synthetic representation of them.

Your interpretation.  Admit it.  The epilogue slides nor EDI's narration support it.  It's fine if that's what you think, but it's not "factually true."

Everything before the synthesis endings supports what I say, including EDI. Why such an abrupt heel face turn for her, after everything she says?

[RiouHotaru]

wantedman dan wrote...

I'm not the one arguing in absolutes, as the Catalyst did, Allan. That's the problem: it definitively says that the Reapers help life to ascend, choosing to neglect the fact that the forces murder, maim, or otherwise inflict trauma upon the organics in a particular cycle.

Your point is admirable, but misguided considering the fact that the Reapers came in swinging. If they wanted to help life definitively transcend its current existence, would they have landed on each respective planet practically obliterating cities?

No. Don't pretend otherwise.

And not all organics are "ascended"--as much as I deplore that term. If you want to go by what the Catalyst says, you either take everything at face value, or nothing. It spoke in absolutes. It stated that organic life would be "ascended." That is why it is necessary to kill, main, and terrify as many as possible before doing such, no?

There's an easy answer to this.  You're assuming the violence being done with malicious intent.  That the reapers know to target industrial centers and military facilities shows that they've dealt with this before.  It's entirely possible they DID try a peaceful approach, and were met with violent retaliation.  However, in order for them to do what they're programmed to do, they had to use violence.

So, in future cycles, to prevent losses on their part, they immediately begin attacking to shut down organic attempts at fighting back.  Indoctrination was likely a development to help make it easier to harvest the different races as well, by dulling the desire to resist.

[KotorEffect3]

Lord Goose wrote...

Maybe it was designed by some alien race, who considered that it is better just to give them that they want, instead of killing/hi-jacking them.

Personally I think that Crucible was created by Catalyst creators and it was original function.

I am thinking leviathan might have a had (or tenticle in his case) in creating the crucible concept.

[The Paragon Disciple]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

You seem to be the first BioWare employee who remotely likes Destroy, Allan. It's a nice change of pace.

I was a fan even with the original endings. 

Sucked to kill the Geth (though it was less certain in the original ending), but ultimately freeing the galaxy from Reaper influence is what my Shep wanted to do.

Thats the logic I used to always choose destroy. Plus I fufilled the LOTSB promise to Liara to always come back to her.

[wantedman dan]

zambot wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

zambot wrote...

You have no idea if it was "forced".  You are projecting that based on your own life views and experiences.  It is no secret that sci-fi transhumanistic utopia stories all share this belief that once a society reaches "ultimate knowledge" that all violence and hate is eliminated.  How do you know that the writers did not intend this?

Was there an "opt-out" feature within the impending wave of synthesis?

No, but synthesis did not force opinions or take away free will.

That is completely contradictory. Either a) there was an opt-in/out feature, or you forced it upon everyone. 

Or at least the writers did not indicate that.  It is possible that happened in your headcannon, but there is no canon that supports that.  The only thing synthesis "forced" was magical "synthetic integration".

The writing did indicate this. By showing Reapers/Synthesis-life magically cooperating only moments after being at war, unilaterally.

[zambot]

The Angry One wrote...


Everything before the synthesis endings supports what I say, including EDI. Why such an abrupt heel face turn for her, after everything she says?

Yes, but it is your interpretation that it was "forced" upon her, instead of her arriving at this conclusion based upon the new instant access to eons of cultural knowledge and magical "understanding".

You are trying to impose logic on something illogical.  It is a pointless excercise, very similar to IT

[wantedman dan]

RiouHotaru wrote...

There's an easy answer to this.  You're assuming the violence being done with malicious intent.  That the reapers know to target industrial centers and military facilities shows that they've dealt with this before.  It's entirely possible they DID try a peaceful approach, and were met with violent retaliation.  However, in order for them to do what they're programmed to do, they had to use violence.

Show me something within the canon that reinforces this line of thought.

So, in future cycles, to prevent losses on their part, they immediately begin attacking to shut down organic attempts at fighting back.  Indoctrination was likely a development to help make it easier to harvest the different races as well, by dulling the desire to resist. 

If you must resort to violence and deception in order to make your point correct, it was a terrible point to begin with.

[zambot]

wantedman dan wrote...

zambot wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

zambot wrote...

You have no idea if it was "forced".  You are projecting that based on your own life views and experiences.  It is no secret that sci-fi transhumanistic utopia stories all share this belief that once a society reaches "ultimate knowledge" that all violence and hate is eliminated.  How do you know that the writers did not intend this?

Was there an "opt-out" feature within the impending wave of synthesis?

No, but synthesis did not force opinions or take away free will.

That is completely contradictory. Either a) there was an opt-in/out feature, or you forced it upon everyone. 

Or at least the writers did not indicate that.  It is possible that happened in your headcannon, but there is no canon that supports that.  The only thing synthesis "forced" was magical "synthetic integration".

The writing did indicate this. By showing Reapers/Synthesis-life magically cooperating only moments after being at war, unilaterally.

Again, this is because with sudden instant access to eons of knowledge and magical "understanding" everyone arrived at the conclusion that further violence is pointless and it was time to rebuild civilization.  This opinion wasn't forced.  It is the logical consequence of "ultimate knowledge" (so say the transhumanistic uptopia people).

[Torrible]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
The geth had came in contact and under the control of the Reapers before and they disagreed with it, why would they agree now? And I don't understand what your trying to say, your logic is almost as bad as the Catalyst.

The situation changed so they changed their minds. Previously they had qualms about being used as tools to further the Reaper's genocidal agenda. How the Reapers have no more reason to commit genocide and no more reason to use the Geth as tools. 

[RiouHotaru]

Eradyn wrote...

No.  "The creators gave them form." As in, their forcefully slaughtered bodies gave the reapers the blueprint of their overall design.  The starchild was created by the creators to come up with a solution to their makebelieve problem, the solution it came up with was the reapers.  The creators "did not approved" and were forcefully turned into the first reaper, against their will.  I don't see how this is difficult to understand.

...Well this is a shocker.  Look's who's decided to say howdy again!  Yo, Eradyn.

But honestly, I disagree.  I admit, it's very (deceptively so) easy to want to pin this entirely on the Catalyst as it being his idea.  But if that were the case, why base the Reapers after his creators in shape.  That wouldn't make any sense on his part.  And why keep using that shape for every future design?  If the Destroyers and Sovereign-class Reapers are based on his creator race, then it makes sense that it was their idea.  An AI wouldn't have the creative functionality to come up with that.

Until we get some kind of definitive evidence that states he basically forced them into a processor and juiced them down, the only reason you can draw this conclusion is because you have an inherent issue with the Catalyst.

Which is fine.  Just don't state it as fact.

[wantedman dan]

zambot wrote...

Again, this is because with sudden instant access to eons of knowledge and magical "understanding" everyone arrived at the conclusion that further violence is pointless and it was time to rebuild civilization.  This opinion wasn't forced.  It is the logical consequence of "ultimate knowledge" (so say the transhumanistic uptopia people).

Was there an opt-out feature?

[zambot]

wantedman dan wrote...

zambot wrote...

Again, this is because with sudden instant access to eons of knowledge and magical "understanding" everyone arrived at the conclusion that further violence is pointless and it was time to rebuild civilization.  This opinion wasn't forced.  It is the logical consequence of "ultimate knowledge" (so say the transhumanistic uptopia people).

Was there an opt-out feature?

That question makes no sense.  It is like asking to opt out of knowing something after you already have learned it.   No one forced anyone to make peace with the reapers.  It was the inevitable result of gaining knowledge.

Modifié par zambot, 05 juillet 2012 - 09:04 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

You physically changed people without their consent but you didn't brainwash them.  You changed them physically that is all,  you didn't change who they are,  you didn't take away their free will or their memories.  You changed their dna.  It really isn't much different than what the lazarus project did to shepard.

That's why everyone is so tickled to death to accept the Reapers, despite the atrocities they committed only moments before, right?

Once again you are basing that off of one epilogue slide.  It isn't about whether or not people are happy to have the reapers around.  It is irrelevant.  Just because the epilogue doesn't show some crazy person doing a suicide run on a destroyer doesn't mean it may not happen.  The only function of that particular epilogue slide was to show how the reapers themselves have a different role than they had before.

Then explain to me why EDI is so happy to work with the Reapers when she told me a few hours earlier she would rather die, than to co-exist with them. Also, the Geth, Like Legion who specifically hated the Reapers because they wanted to create their own future instead of one that would deal to co-exist the reapers. And no, it's not one slide, its various cutscenes/slides to show how organics/synthetics are co-existing with the Reapers, it was purposely put into the game to send that message, if Bioware intended to put another message, they wouldn't have put all those scenes.

Perspectives change, nobody knew what the reapers true function was until Shepard met up with the catalyst and when the synthesis energy blast hit everybody they probably gained an understanding of what the reapers function was thus making the reapers function as reapers obsolete.  Remember reapers is just a nickname that organics gave them not necessarily what the reapers themselves think of themselves as.

The geth had came in contact and under the control of the Reapers before and they disagreed with it, why would they agree now? And I don't understand what your trying to say, your logic is almost as bad as the Catalyst.

I am saying since everyone is partly synthetic there is no reason for them to war synthetics as synthetic are now partly organic.  At least that is how the reapers see it.  I am explaining their perspective,  I never said I agree with it all I am saying is why synthesis results in peace (for the time being).

So you admit the Catalyst logic is flawed and you don't agree with it.

I'm done.

[wantedman dan]

zambot wrote...

That question makes no sense.  It is like asking to opt out of knowing something after you already have learned it.   No one forced anyone to make peace with the reapers.  It was the inevitable result of gaining knowledge.

Of being forced into the knowledge in the first place.

[Hackulator]

If Synthesis was what the Reapers wanted, why don't they just do it?

OOPS LOGIC

[Ticonderoga117]

wantedman dan wrote...

zambot wrote...

That question makes no sense.  It is like asking to opt out of knowing something after you already have learned it.   No one forced anyone to make peace with the reapers.  It was the inevitable result of gaining knowledge.

Of being forced into the knowledge in the first place.

More like a better understanding at what the Reapers have done, and for what reason. Knowing that, the fact that the Reapers are still around is insulting.

[o Ventus]

Hackulator wrote...

If Synthesis was what the Reapers wanted, why don't they just do it?

OOPS LOGIC

Did you miss the part where the Catalyst tells you that it tried?

Like, tried a lot of times?

[Ticonderoga117]

Hackulator wrote...

If Synthesis was what the Reapers wanted, why don't they just do it?

OOPS LOGIC

GlowBoy said they did do it, and that it failed because that cycle wasn't ready and you can't force it.

Until Shepard comes along, then it's all fine and dandy.

Looks like you didn't pay much attention buddy.

Modifié par Ticonderoga117, 05 juillet 2012 - 09:08 .

[RiouHotaru]

wantedman dan wrote...

Show me something within the canon that reinforces this line of thought.

I don't have to.  TAO's entire argument has no basis in canon either, she's claiming an alternate interpretation of the canon as fact.  I'm claiming an alterate interpretation based on what I believe makes logical sense.

It makes no sense that in every single cycle the Reapers come out all guns blazing, especially if we're talking about the first 2 or 3 cycles.  However, given the aversion to the idea of what the Reapers do, the obvious organic reaction is to fight back and resist.  Therefore, at some point, the Catalyst determined the Reapers had to start firing first.

If you must resort to violence and deception in order to make your point correct, it was a terrible point to begin with.

Blue and Orange Morality.  We can't comprehend how his solution works, therefore we think of it as bad.  Would it make more sense for the Reapers to not use violence and risk failing in their directive?

[zambot]

wantedman dan wrote...

zambot wrote...

That question makes no sense.  It is like asking to opt out of knowing something after you already have learned it.   No one forced anyone to make peace with the reapers.  It was the inevitable result of gaining knowledge.

Of being forced into the knowledge in the first place.

You were claiming people were brainwahsed.  Now you are claiming they are not brainwashed, but instead were enlightened, but that the enlightment was forced upon them so that is somehow morally wrong?  I think there are plenty of people that would disagree that giving someone knowledge or enlightenment is ever morally wrong.

[wantedman dan]

zambot wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

zambot wrote...

That question makes no sense.  It is like asking to opt out of knowing something after you already have learned it.   No one forced anyone to make peace with the reapers.  It was the inevitable result of gaining knowledge.

Of being forced into the knowledge in the first place.

You were claiming people were brainwahsed.  Now you are claiming they are not brainwashed, but instead were enlightened, but that the enlightment was forced upon them so that is somehow morally wrong?  I think there are plenty of people that would disagree that giving someone knowledge or enlightenment is ever morally wrong.

I've been using your argument against you for the past two or three go arounds now.

Which you have shown no intention of responding to, apparently.

[zambot]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

zambot wrote...

That question makes no sense.  It is like asking to opt out of knowing something after you already have learned it.   No one forced anyone to make peace with the reapers.  It was the inevitable result of gaining knowledge.

Of being forced into the knowledge in the first place.

More like a better understanding at what the Reapers have done, and for what reason. Knowing that, the fact that the Reapers are still around is insulting.

An interpretation.