1081 réponses à ce sujet

[KotorEffect3]

wantedman dan wrote...

zambot wrote...

What is his point?  He is trying to claim that synthsis must mean people are brainwashed because the new opinions of people (working with reapers) is forced.  I provided an argument why the opinion is not necessarily forced.  He has yet to deal with that.  He's trying to lay a trap by presuming that forced "knowledge" equats to forced "opinions".  It does not.  It's fallacy.

...So because you disagree with the argument, it's a trap. I see.

A rather disappointing display.

Do you ever not turn your nose up at other people?

[mauro2222]

zambot wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

*shrugs* Dan is not a troll. He has a valid point.

What is his point?  He is trying to claim that synthsis must mean people are brainwashed because the new opinions of people (working with reapers) is forced.  I provided an argument why the opinion is not necessarily forced.  He has yet to deal with that.  He's trying to lay a trap by presuming that forced "knowledge" equats to forced "opinions".  It does not.  It's fallacy.

No, it doesn't equates to that. But knowledge doesn't equate to acceptance either. Emotions are irrational, you can have all the knowledge of the world and still hate someone who acted like you would. Understanding doesn't equate acceptance either. The main problem with Synthetics/organics is acceptance to synthetics, something that Synthesis doesn't grant. People forgetting of their hate and racism is not proof of "magical knowledge" making them see through flaws.

Modifié par mauro2222, 05 juillet 2012 - 09:27 .

[KotorEffect3]

Stornskar wrote...

Rubios wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

No mention of what the threshold for "ready" is

Small details, like a huge ass machine called The Crucible.

How did they try a galaxy-wide synthesis without a similar device?

We don't know how.  The catalyst doens't go into detail

[Baronesa]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Your "us vs them" mentality.

ohhhh the irony...

Says the person who came intot he thread insulting people, demeaning them and thent rying to derail it.

[wantedman dan]

zambot wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

zambot wrote...

What is his point?  He is trying to claim that synthsis must mean people are brainwashed because the new opinions of people (working with reapers) is forced.  I provided an argument why the opinion is not necessarily forced.  He has yet to deal with that.  He's trying to lay a trap by presuming that forced "knowledge" equats to forced "opinions".  It does not.  It's fallacy.

...So because you disagree with the argument, it's a trap. I see.

A rather disappointing display.

Fine.  Convince me that forcing knowledge on someone is the same thing as forcing them to have an opinion.

In this context, it's one and the same.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

zambot wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

And once again, we've reached an impasse:

TAO's argument once again revolves around the idea that the Catalyst's intent is solely malicious, and that anything he comes up with is inherently a bad solution and therefore must be rejected solely on that premise.

She claims that Synthesis is the exact same thing as being stuffed into a Reaper despite the game canon itself disagreeing with her.

She also claims the Synthesis ending is nothing like what's stated and argues her headcanon of it being some sinister form of indoctrination by claiming the game supports her argument as fact. (It doesn't).

We get it, TAO:

1) You hate the Catalyst and anything to do with it.
2) You dislike the fact Refusal doesn't do what you want
3) You dislike that Synthesis is treated as a viable and beneficial outcome

Next time you want to make a thread on a topic, don't start by stating "100% fact" though. Or using Godwin's Law. Just disclaimer that you're offering your opinion/interpretation, and you won't have a problem.

She's completely right though, Why would you believe your enemy?

http://en.wikipedia....ciation_fallacy 

Your really going to use that against me, I mean I'm pretyu sure that a kid that commands and army of machines that try to destroy everything in existense, trusting it seems a little dumb don't you think?

[wantedman dan]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

zambot wrote...

What is his point?  He is trying to claim that synthsis must mean people are brainwashed because the new opinions of people (working with reapers) is forced.  I provided an argument why the opinion is not necessarily forced.  He has yet to deal with that.  He's trying to lay a trap by presuming that forced "knowledge" equats to forced "opinions".  It does not.  It's fallacy.

...So because you disagree with the argument, it's a trap. I see.

A rather disappointing display.

Do you ever not turn your nose up at other people?

You're full of irony today, aren't you?

[wantedman dan]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Your "us vs them" mentality.

Yes, yes you are full of irony.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

wantedman dan is just a troll that tries to act like he is superior to anyone that does not agree with him

*KABOOM*

My irony meter just exploded.

Same.

Well what a suprise your all agreeing with each other

I wonder why

Your "us vs them" mentality.

But your the one who came in bashing us though, funny because, you even admitted to bashing us as a group. 
<_<

Modifié par Khajiit Jzargo, 05 juillet 2012 - 09:29 .

[zambot]

mauro2222 wrote...

zambot wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

*shrugs* Dan is not a troll. He has a valid point.

What is his point?  He is trying to claim that synthsis must mean people are brainwashed because the new opinions of people (working with reapers) is forced.  I provided an argument why the opinion is not necessarily forced.  He has yet to deal with that.  He's trying to lay a trap by presuming that forced "knowledge" equats to forced "opinions".  It does not.  It's fallacy.

No, it doesn't equates to that. But knowledge doesn't equate to acceptance either. Emotions are irrational, you can have all the knowledge of the world and still hate someone who acted like you would. Understanding doesn't equate acceptance either. The main problem with Synthetics/organics is acceptance to synthetics, something that Synthesis doesn't grant. People forgetting of their hate and racism is not proof of "magical knowledge" making them see through flaws.

That is a valid interpretation.  I'm ok with that.  I'm also ok with the interpretation that through new knowledge and understanding, people have come to forgive the reapers and accept their help at rebuilding the galaxy.  It's all space magic, and equally valid.  

The point is that they are both just interpretations of head canon.  To claim either is fact is folly.

[KotorEffect3]

Baronesa wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Your "us vs them" mentality.

ohhhh the irony...

Says the person who came intot he thread insulting people, demeaning them and thent rying to derail it.

I've been talking about synthesis and you people have been crying about me.  I am not the derailer.  But I wouldn't expect an impartial perspective from someone with your sig

[The Angry One]

Heeden wrote...

I think that because it is what is said in the extended Synthesis explanation, we see it happening when Shep jumps in the beam, we see energy being distributed through the galaxy and it fits with the space-magic that has been established since ME1.

And is immediately contradicted by the next scene.

Now what evidence do you have that the green energy is actually robot-bits that also mind control, other than things you're imagining?

Aside from seeing DNA being altered in the very next scene?
Again, why would ORGANICS be altered by ORGANIC energy? I might as well give you vanilla flavoured vanilla.

Not to mention the very obviously synthetic looking circuit overly everyone gets.

Also, "Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology."
The Catalyst's words are self-contradictory and non-sensical, but the intent is clear even as BioWare try to backpedal over the "new DNA" fiasco.

Either you're doing this tongue-in-cheek or you honestly think Mass Effect somehow has a "right answer" and the rest are tricks for some inexplicable reason or you're just really angry at something and the ME forums are a place to vent.

Once again, I wouldn't give a damn about synthesis if BioWare didn't sabotage the other endings in order to force their vision of a best ending down my throat. That this ending is a disturbing abomination just compounds the issue.

You're claiming a phrase is head-canon after I showed you the youtube vid and have already admitted to rejecting the Catalyst's words in order to make stuff up between-the-lines. Also no veiled insults, I actually meant it as a compliment and my earlier comment about your Godwinning stands.

It's still headcanon if you believe that "organic energy" is all that it means.
I mean seriously, what does that even mean. Everybody becomes like Shepard? You do know that'd be a form of brainwashing too, right?

[Grimwick]

Torrible wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

And once again, we've reached an impasse:

TAO's argument once again revolves around the idea that the Catalyst's intent is solely malicious, and that anything he comes up with is inherently a bad solution and therefore must be rejected solely on that premise.

The Catalyst is the equivalent of an insane human, anything that comes from his mouth is a bad solution.

From: http://social.biowar...5245/3#12977735

1. The Catalyst begins as neither trust worthy nor untrustworthy (think Vigil from ME1).
2. The Catalyst deliberately tells you it is the Reaper King which means you have no choice but to mistrust it.
3. The fact that the Catalyst willingly tells you that it is the Reaper King and thus unworthy of your trust tells us that it doesn’t care what you think about it or not. If it did want to trick you into doing something inadvertently then it would not begin by giving you the biggest reason in the world not to trust it.
4. If the Catalyst is not concerned with whether or not you believe it and is thus not trying to trick you then its only concern can be the conveyance of the facts and information that it has.
5. If all the Catalyst cares about is facts and not manipulation then you can trust it.

You make an unjustified assumption in point 3.

So much for that theory...

[zambot]

wantedman dan wrote...

zambot wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

zambot wrote...

What is his point?  He is trying to claim that synthsis must mean people are brainwashed because the new opinions of people (working with reapers) is forced.  I provided an argument why the opinion is not necessarily forced.  He has yet to deal with that.  He's trying to lay a trap by presuming that forced "knowledge" equats to forced "opinions".  It does not.  It's fallacy.

...So because you disagree with the argument, it's a trap. I see.

A rather disappointing display.

Fine.  Convince me that forcing knowledge on someone is the same thing as forcing them to have an opinion.

In this context, it's one and the same.

That would be a rather disappointing display.

[KotorEffect3]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

wantedman dan is just a troll that tries to act like he is superior to anyone that does not agree with him

*KABOOM*

My irony meter just exploded.

Same.

Well what a suprise your all agreeing with each other

I wonder why

Your "us vs them" mentality.

But your the one who came in bashing us though, funny because, you even admitted to bashing us as a group. 
<_<

No I came in stating why synthesis is a viable option, you are the ones that derailed the topic to cry about me.

Modifié par KotorEffect3, 05 juillet 2012 - 09:31 .

[wantedman dan]

zambot wrote...

That would be a rather disappointing display.

You were expecting something different? That would be rather hypocritical.

After all, this is my headcanon, right?

[mauro2222]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Damn your dense I wasn't bashing you changing your avatar.  I guess you people have no humor.  We will never understand each other.

You're always acting with a corrosive behaviour, it's my fault that I don't see through your "innocent" humor?

[Grimwick]

zambot wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

And once again, we've reached an impasse:

TAO's argument once again revolves around the idea that the Catalyst's intent is solely malicious, and that anything he comes up with is inherently a bad solution and therefore must be rejected solely on that premise.

She claims that Synthesis is the exact same thing as being stuffed into a Reaper despite the game canon itself disagreeing with her.

She also claims the Synthesis ending is nothing like what's stated and argues her headcanon of it being some sinister form of indoctrination by claiming the game supports her argument as fact. (It doesn't).

We get it, TAO:

1) You hate the Catalyst and anything to do with it.
2) You dislike the fact Refusal doesn't do what you want
3) You dislike that Synthesis is treated as a viable and beneficial outcome

Next time you want to make a thread on a topic, don't start by stating "100% fact" though. Or using Godwin's Law. Just disclaimer that you're offering your opinion/interpretation, and you won't have a problem.

She's completely right though, Why would you believe your enemy?

http://en.wikipedia....ciation_fallacy 

Misapplication of that fallacy, zambot.

The key word in the description is an 'irrelevant association'.

I think a megalomaniac who has been trying to kill you for the past 3 games is a perfectly valid association.

Modifié par Grimwick, 05 juillet 2012 - 09:31 .

[zambot]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

zambot wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

And once again, we've reached an impasse:

TAO's argument once again revolves around the idea that the Catalyst's intent is solely malicious, and that anything he comes up with is inherently a bad solution and therefore must be rejected solely on that premise.

She claims that Synthesis is the exact same thing as being stuffed into a Reaper despite the game canon itself disagreeing with her.

She also claims the Synthesis ending is nothing like what's stated and argues her headcanon of it being some sinister form of indoctrination by claiming the game supports her argument as fact. (It doesn't).

We get it, TAO:

1) You hate the Catalyst and anything to do with it.
2) You dislike the fact Refusal doesn't do what you want
3) You dislike that Synthesis is treated as a viable and beneficial outcome

Next time you want to make a thread on a topic, don't start by stating "100% fact" though. Or using Godwin's Law. Just disclaimer that you're offering your opinion/interpretation, and you won't have a problem.

She's completely right though, Why would you believe your enemy?

http://en.wikipedia....ciation_fallacy 

Your really going to use that against me, I mean I'm pretyu sure that a kid that commands and army of machines that try to destroy everything in existense, trusting it seems a little dumb don't you think?

Association fallacy does not discriminate on the power or severity of the thing you are associating with.  It is still a fallacy.  Let's Godwin the thread a 3rd time shall we.  If Hitler loved kittens, does that make the loving of ktitens evil?

[wantedman dan]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

No I came in stating why synthesis is a viable option, you are the ones that derailed the topic to cry about me.

While generalizing and bashing others.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Your "us vs them" mentality.

ohhhh the irony...

Says the person who came intot he thread insulting people, demeaning them and thent rying to derail it.

I've been talking about synthesis and you people have been crying about me.  I am not the derailer.  But I wouldn't expect an impartial perspective from someone with your sig

O RLY

Do you need me to go back and copy/paste the conversation where I was telling you to talk about synthesis but instead you keep insisting in bashing refusers where the convo was clearly not about that. Yes or no?

[Memnon]

KotorEffect3 wrote...
We don't know how.  The catalyst doens't go into detail

That's the point - if I'm going to make a decision that changes the DNA of every living and synthetic being, I'd like to know what the difference is between the last guys they tried it on and me. For all I know the Catalyst is trying to get me to commit suicide so the resistance loses its leader ...

Modifié par Stornskar, 05 juillet 2012 - 09:36 .

[RiouHotaru]

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

It does. See, we can go on this roundabout all day.
Except, I've explained why it does, and one sugar-coated faux utopia scene won't change that.
[/quote]

Again, we get it, you don't like the Catalyst.  But the game clearly indicates what happened as a result of picking his choice, and you can't handwave the outcome as "sugar-coated faux utopia" just because you don't like it.  Which you've outright admitted you don't.
[/quote]

[quote]
The Catalyst wants synthesis. This IS 100% fact.
It's fact as fact can be. You criticise me for pointing out when the Catalyst is lying yet you apparently think it's lying about the one thing it has little reason to lie about?
[/quote]

The Catalyst desires Synthesis for one reason: Because it's a solution to the conflict that he was programmed to solve.  A solution he himself tried to impliment and could not, deeming it impossible until this very moment.  A solution that obviously works better than the one he's been using.

Your problem is that you assume because he thinks Synthesis is a good idea means it's actually a bad idea, because you're inherently biased against the Catalyst.  Which is fine, you're entitled to that.  But don't make a fallacious statement just as "The Catalyst wants Synthesis, therefore it MUST be wrong" as fact.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 05 juillet 2012 - 09:32 .