1081 réponses à ce sujet

[ghost9191]

Psychlonus wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

This is 100% fact, shown within the game when the head Reaper itself not only promotes synthesis as the best thing ever, but admits that it tried it before.

No this isn't about the morality or lack thereof of synthesis, there are enough topics about that.
Here I ask.... if we are to believe that the Crucible was designed by some unknown organic race and improved upon in the following eons... why does it have an option for synthesis?

Not only is it what the Reapers want. But think about this. Really think about this. The people who designed/added to the Crucible wouldn't be thinking "We need to merge with synthetics for greater understanding/final evolution of life/blah blah blah!". They'd be thinking "Oh my god those giant metal cuttlefish are going to kill us, we need to build something to stop them."
I really have to wonder what kind of mentality would see giant metal killbots and think "You know what would be a good idea? Merging our bodies with them!".

Then why didn't the reapers simply impose synthesis from the very beginning?

just putting this out there, but they have tried multiple times. but it is not something that can be forced. and it wasn't until shep showed up that they could. ironically force it on ppl

[Heeden]

Billyg3453 wrote...

He did put it in the game. We see a husk clearly regain some form of intellect and stop attacking the soldiers. The clear implication is that the Husk can now think for himself and is "alive".

I'm not doubting that part at all, I just think that how the husk is alive should be open to speculation.

Also, the argument that "it should have been in the game" is true, but that doesn't invalidate what he says. What the executive producer says is canon, regardless of whether it should be in the game or not.

I'm a 40k fan - if it isn't in the game (book) it isn't canon, only fluff.

[3DandBeyond]

zambot wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

It never does remove free-will, and the only difference it removes is the difference between synthetics and organics. Personalities, culture identity, and even physical characteristics remain intact.

The free will part is 100% wrong.
Shepard chooses Synthesis, everyone is effected. No free will.

This is incorrect.  There is nothing in the ending that even suggests that people have lost their free will post synthesis.  It's fine to say that Shep forced everyone to gain "synthesis organic space magic energy", but what happens after that is entirely head canon.

Actually even if people still have free will they have no reason to use it.  It is used for many things-self-determination being one.  But since they've already been robbed of that and they are at the end of evolution, there's nothing to use it for.  Free will is used for the decisions of a life that will go forward.  Perfection was the goal of evolution and once achieved there is no way forward.  That is why Mordin referred to it as stagnation.

But apparently the devs decided to make synthesis somewhat specific but ambiguously so. As it is, it's both the full combination of all synthetic life and organic life or merely the insertion of tech upgrades within organics and the full understanding of organics by synthetics.  It either is or isn't synthesis.  True synthesis is the combination of 2 or more things to form something new.  It either does this or doesn't do this.  And so they wanted to give us closure on synthesis, but then leave it more open to head canon.  They need to really get a grip.

[Versus Omnibus]

Billyg3453 wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...


Gamble said that? You must be joking...  

Although is he even a trustworthy source? In the past, he has made some tweets that made it seem like he nevery played the game.

To be fair, he only asked people what life would be like if Husks were alive. He didn't confirmed Husks were alive.

When you post in a thread about Husk Rehabilitation, it seems that would be the implication.

It's an implication; not a confirmation.

Also the link just sends me to a picture, not to his original post.

[RadicalDisconnect]

Billyg3453 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

I'll comment. It's wrong. Gamble tweeted/posted he was hoping to debate how Husks would be reintegrated into society/recieve therapy.

If he wanted that he should have put it in the game, I'm not going to modify my speculation according to what some guy on the forum said he read on Twitter.

He did put it in the game. We see a husk clearly regain some form of intellect and stop attacking the soldiers. The clear implication is that the Husk can now think for himself and is "alive".

Also, the argument that "it should have been in the game" is true, but that doesn't invalidate what he says. What the executive producer says is canon, regardless of whether it should be in the game or not.

What the husk displayed was shock and surprise, and it also looked like it was looking back at a reaper, perhaps the one controlling it. There's nothing other than that twitter post that suggests that the husk isn't a projection of a reaper's mind. It's not inconceivable that the reapers themselves would be surprised by synthesis, as it would seem like it frees them from the Catalyst. At least, that's my interpretation.

However, if Gamble's tweet is canon, then what the **** is the writing team thinking?<_< Oh well, ultimately not my problem, since I chose destroy. It's just fun playing the Devil's Advocate in favor of synthesis.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 05 juillet 2012 - 10:55 .

[PinkysPain]

Mesina2 wrote...
Shepard isn't indoctrinated.

If Shepard wasn't indoctrinated in the control option he would put on his sunglasses and tell them to rip out the Starchild AI core from the Citadel and fly into the nearest sun.

[3DandBeyond]

ghost9191 wrote...

Psychlonus wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

This is 100% fact, shown within the game when the head Reaper itself not only promotes synthesis as the best thing ever, but admits that it tried it before.

No this isn't about the morality or lack thereof of synthesis, there are enough topics about that.
Here I ask.... if we are to believe that the Crucible was designed by some unknown organic race and improved upon in the following eons... why does it have an option for synthesis?

Not only is it what the Reapers want. But think about this. Really think about this. The people who designed/added to the Crucible wouldn't be thinking "We need to merge with synthetics for greater understanding/final evolution of life/blah blah blah!". They'd be thinking "Oh my god those giant metal cuttlefish are going to kill us, we need to build something to stop them."
I really have to wonder what kind of mentality would see giant metal killbots and think "You know what would be a good idea? Merging our bodies with them!".

Then why didn't the reapers simply impose synthesis from the very beginning?

just putting this out there, but they have tried multiple times. but it is not something that can be forced. and it wasn't until shep showed up that they could. ironically force it on ppl

That's it-it can't be forced, except by the one person who without fail would not force it.  A paragon Shepard would not for the obvious reason.  A renegade one would not because it's certain death and doesn't achieve any gut level desires.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 05 juillet 2012 - 10:54 .

[Billyg3453]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...


Gamble said that? You must be joking...  

Although is he even a trustworthy source? In the past, he has made some tweets that made it seem like he nevery played the game.

To be fair, he only asked people what life would be like if Husks were alive. He didn't confirmed Husks were alive.

When you post in a thread about Husk Rehabilitation, it seems that would be the implication.

It's an implication; not a confirmation.

Also the link just sends me to a picture, not to his original post.

I fixed it in the original post. http://social.biowar...8766/1#12791029

Also, ignoring an implication by the executive producer is your choice. But it seems like you avoid it because it's convienent for your argument, not because you believe it.

[zambot]

PinkysPain wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Shepard isn't indoctrinated.

If Shepard wasn't indoctrinated in the control option he would put on his sunglasses and tell them to rip out the Starchild AI core from the Citadel and fly into the nearest sun.

That is an entirely viable head canon ending for control.

[Versus Omnibus]

PinkysPain wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Shepard isn't indoctrinated.

If Shepard wasn't indoctrinated in the control option he would put on his sunglasses and tell them to rip out the Starchild AI core from the Citadel and fly into the nearest sun.

Because Shepard doesn't become the new Catalyst; it just "remembers" Shepard. So it is possible the new Catalyst could restart the harvesting process, but that's open to debate.

[Luxure]

Heeden wrote...

Luxure wrote...

@Heeden, you can't really "vanquish" the Reapers now, can you ? Princess Luna acted as a Reaper aswell. She dramatically declares that the protagonist ( Twilight ) is a fool for thinking she can defeat her, and that "the night will last forever". She thought of herself as almighty, but proved the contrary. And they didn't accommodate to Nightmare Moon way of life, they changed her to what's tolerable, to what we know now as Princess Luna. So they didn't "merge" with her evil idea of what's good.

I'm not saying - and Synthesis definitely does not suggest - that we should adopt the Catalyst's methods (which would be everyone killing each other).

Just like the ponies of Canterlot rejected Nightmare Moon's ideal of eternal night, so the organics of the galaxy rejected the Catalyst's ideal of the Harvest. But, when the elements of harmony were assembled and Luna was defeated she was not killed, or brainwashed. She was welcomed back to the herd, given a role fitting to her capabilites and integrated back in to pony society.

That is what love and tolerance is about, that's why Friendship is Magic is Synthesis.

Synthesis is an abomination, all of those who fail to see the truth behind this Reaper charade do not deserve to be tolerated, and you're no exception. Synthesis is an  Antithesis[/b] to the original Mass Effect ideal. "The Galaxy" didn't reject Catalyst's ideal of Harvest. Shepard did, and she didn't reject it, she embraced it. The Reapers are many minds, one body. The Synthesis is many bodies, one mind. Same crap, different name. Synthesis isn't Magic, there's no Magic in taking the free will of an entire Galaxy. You can't be that indoctrinated. 

[Billyg3453]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

What the husk displayed was shock and surprise, and it also looked like it was looking back at a reaper, perhaps the one controlling it. There's nothing other than that twitter post that suggests that the husk isn't a projection of a reaper's mind. It's not inconceivable that the reapers themselves would be surprised by synthesis. At least, that's my interpretation.

However, if Gamble's tweet is canon, then what the is the writing team thinking?<_<

Sure it's not inconcievable. But that makes it an interpretation on an absolute. By that I mean you believe that what is actually going on is not shown to us, which I find hard to believe in a DLC made for "clarity"

Gamble speaks for the Devs. The multiplayer team, the cinimatic team, and the writing team. What he says should almost always be taken as fact (except when he's promoting something).

[paul165]

I would suggest if husks are aware the first thing most of them do is try to kill themselves because honestly being a husk is the very defination of fate worse than death

[General User]

Psychlonus wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

This is 100% fact, shown within the game when the head Reaper itself not only promotes synthesis as the best thing ever, but admits that it tried it before.

No this isn't about the morality or lack thereof of synthesis, there are enough topics about that.
Here I ask.... if we are to believe that the Crucible was designed by some unknown organic race and improved upon in the following eons... why does it have an option for synthesis?

Not only is it what the Reapers want. But think about this. Really think about this. The people who designed/added to the Crucible wouldn't be thinking "We need to merge with synthetics for greater understanding/final evolution of life/blah blah blah!". They'd be thinking "Oh my god those giant metal cuttlefish are going to kill us, we need to build something to stop them."
I really have to wonder what kind of mentality would see giant metal killbots and think "You know what would be a good idea? Merging our bodies with them!".

Then why didn't the reapers simply impose synthesis from the very beginning?

The Catalyst's ingame explantion that Synthesis is "not something that can be forced" (unless Shepard is the one doing the forcing apparently) and that organics "just weren't ready" (Excuse me!  We're not the ones who started this war.), is certainly quite wanting. 

One thing's for sure though: the Catalyst may never have been able to get Synthesis to work, but it wasn't for lack of trying.

Modifié par General User, 05 juillet 2012 - 11:06 .

[Versus Omnibus]

Billyg3453 wrote...

I fixed it in the original post. http://social.biowar...8766/1#12791029

Also, ignoring an implication by the executive producer is your choice. But it seems like you avoid it because it's convienent for your argument, not because you believe it.

I'm not ignoring it; I just refuse to except it as a confirmation unless he flat says "yes, Husks are alive."

All he's doing trying to get people talking.

[Billyg3453]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...

I fixed it in the original post. http://social.biowar...8766/1#12791029

Also, ignoring an implication by the executive producer is your choice. But it seems like you avoid it because it's convienent for your argument, not because you believe it.

I'm not ignoring it; I just refuse to except it as a confirmation unless he flat says "yes, Husks are alive."

All he's doing trying to get people talking.

That is understandable. But I believe that would put you in the minority, as I think most people believe that after Synthesis, all Reaper forces become alive.

[Hyrist]

I'm not going to argue with Absolutism terms that imply that just because your opposition wishes to achieve a goal, that that goal is inherently wrong.

Illusive Man wanted to stop the Collectors, and he was most defiantly a twisted individual. The reasoning behind his goal may have been flawed, but cooperating with him assisted Shepard in stopping the Collector threat.

Just because the Catalyst wants to reach Synthesis, does not mean Synthesis is inherently wrong. Hatred should never be a factor in making sound judgement, here, people's hatred of the Reapers can cloud judgment.

If you don't like Synthesis on your own moral ground. That's fine. But just because it is a concept of an enemy, does not make that concept wrong. Assumptions are dangerous.

[3DandBeyond]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Shepard isn't indoctrinated.

If Shepard wasn't indoctrinated in the control option he would put on his sunglasses and tell them to rip out the Starchild AI core from the Citadel and fly into the nearest sun.

Because Shepard doesn't become the new Catalyst; it just "remembers" Shepard. So it is possible the new Catalyst could restart the harvesting process, but that's open to debate.

The music and tone of the whole Dontrol option is ominous as is what Shreaper even says in part.  The problem is something caused the warp in the AI kid's programming and he is the combined intelligence of all reapers, that house trillions of other beings' intelligences.  Shreaper may be above them all in appearance, but not so in fact at all.  The combination of voices suggests a diluted Shepard within the reapers.  There is talk of the many, but since the kid was totally messed up as to who was responsible for the chaos and conflict that woiuld supposedly always exist, it may be unclear as to who the many that will be protected are.  Organics won't know Shepard's in charge of the reapers and may not want reapers with the goo of their family inside them to exist.  If people do find some way to destroy a reaper-guard down, shields down, Cain in hand, then Shreaper may have to protect reapers (the new many) from the others that Shepard left behind.  It also serves their own need to repair the relays, citadel, and so on.  And they still need organic goo-trillions of lives still needed for this.

[zambot]

Hyrist wrote...

I'm not going to argue with Absolutism terms that imply that just because your opposition wishes to achieve a goal, that that goal is inherently wrong.

Illusive Man wanted to stop the Collectors, and he was most defiantly a twisted individual. The reasoning behind his goal may have been flawed, but cooperating with him assisted Shepard in stopping the Collector threat.

Just because the Catalyst wants to reach Synthesis, does not mean Synthesis is inherently wrong. Hatred should never be a factor in making sound judgement, here, people's hatred of the Reapers can cloud judgment.

If you don't like Synthesis on your own moral ground. That's fine. But just because it is a concept of an enemy, does not make that concept wrong. Assumptions are dangerous.

So much truth in this post.  

[Heeden]

Luxure wrote...
Synthesis is an abomination, all of those who fail to see the truth behind this Reaper charade do not deserve to be tolerated, and you're no exception. Synthesis is an  Antithesis[/b] to the original Mass Effect ideal.

Synthesis is the, well synthesis of the paragon/renegade thesis/antithesis themes of the endings - there's a thread somewhere about from around a week ago that explains what that actually means.

Love and tolerance is supposed to be a universal ideal, if you only loved and tolerated things that you liked it wouldn't be worth mentioning. You sure you're not a changeling?

"The Galaxy" didn't reject Catalyst's ideal of Harvest. Shepard did, and she didn't reject it, she embraced it.

Is that sentence a typo?

The Reapers are many minds, one body. The Synthesis is many bodies, one mind. Same crap, different name. Synthesis isn't Magic, there's no Magic in taking the free will of an entire Galaxy. You can't be that indoctrinated. 

The idea of a super-organism being created as a gestalt entity from the minds of Synthesised individuals was pretty much eliminated from the Extended Cut, and only slightly alluded to in the original ending. Even then it did not necessarily mean an end to individual's free-will.

There is a possibility of an eventual super-consciousness if people choose to go that route in the future but it isn't a direct result of Synthesis.

[Billyg3453]

Hyrist wrote...

Just because the Catalyst wants to reach Synthesis, does not mean Synthesis is inherently wrong. Hatred should never be a factor in making sound judgement, here, people's hatred of the Reapers can cloud judgment.

Absolutely. That doesn't change the fact that Synthesis is what the Reapers want.

[zambot]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
Shepard isn't indoctrinated.

If Shepard wasn't indoctrinated in the control option he would put on his sunglasses and tell them to rip out the Starchild AI core from the Citadel and fly into the nearest sun.

Because Shepard doesn't become the new Catalyst; it just "remembers" Shepard. So it is possible the new Catalyst could restart the harvesting process, but that's open to debate.

The music and tone of the whole Dontrol option is ominous as is what Shreaper even says in part.  The problem is something caused the warp in the AI kid's programming and he is the combined intelligence of all reapers, that house trillions of other beings' intelligences.  Shreaper may be above them all in appearance, but not so in fact at all.  The combination of voices suggests a diluted Shepard within the reapers.  There is talk of the many, but since the kid was totally messed up as to who was responsible for the chaos and conflict that woiuld supposedly always exist, it may be unclear as to who the many that will be protected are.  Organics won't know Shepard's in charge of the reapers and may not want reapers with the goo of their family inside them to exist.  If people do find some way to destroy a reaper-guard down, shields down, Cain in hand, then Shreaper may have to protect reapers (the new many) from the others that Shepard left behind.  It also serves their own need to repair the relays, citadel, and so on.  And they still need organic goo-trillions of lives still needed for this.

I agree with this 100%.  The music and tone of the dialog in the Control ending indicates that the writers want you to view it an ominous and dangerous.  It is also true that the music and tone of the dialog in the Synthesis ending indicates that the writers want you to view it as hopeful and opimistic.  

[drewid78]

Heeden wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Galactic violation without consent is inherently evil.

Define violation - if I give everyone a free wi-fi signal is it violation? There's no suggestion (in fact there's even denial) that peole have to accept the capabilities of Synthesis against there will

 

It is if your forcably put the wi-fi aerial in my head and make my skin glow and my eyes change colour... in fact why not just make us all white or black or male or female etc...

[Versus Omnibus]

Billyg3453 wrote...

That is understandable. But I believe that would put you in the minority, as I think most people believe that after Synthesis, all Reaper forces become alive.

I'm fine with being a minority. But I think the only real way we can answer this question is if the Reaper's control over the Husks is still in effect or they just simply preprogrammed the Husks from the start.

[Billyg3453]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

I'm fine with being a minority. But I think the only real way we can answer this question is if the Reaper's control over the Husks is still in effect or they just simply preprogrammed the Husks from the start.

I believed they reprogram their victims.
You believe they control them.

This is where we disagree. An ending debate has reached a conclusion!