1081 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

Hyrist wrote...

I'm not going to argue with Absolutism terms that imply that just because your opposition wishes to achieve a goal, that that goal is inherently wrong.

Illusive Man wanted to stop the Collectors, and he was most defiantly a twisted individual. The reasoning behind his goal may have been flawed, but cooperating with him assisted Shepard in stopping the Collector threat.

Just because the Catalyst wants to reach Synthesis, does not mean Synthesis is inherently wrong. Hatred should never be a factor in making sound judgement, here, people's hatred of the Reapers can cloud judgment.

If you don't like Synthesis on your own moral ground. That's fine. But just because it is a concept of an enemy, does not make that concept wrong. Assumptions are dangerous.

No, hatred of the kid and the reapers may not be the only reason to reject Synthesis before understanding it but it's definitely a major warning sign.  Illogical thought and assertions indicate the kid has some flaw in his programming at least.  Therefore, it isn't hate that paves the way to reject what he wants.  It's knowledge that he is flawed, "crazy", and doing nasty things.  Hatred should exist, and it would color your judgement, but it isn't the only thing that sends out warning signs even before you think about what Synthesis means.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 05 juillet 2012 - 11:12 .

[Heeden]

zambot wrote...

I agree with this 100%.  The music and tone of the dialog in the Control ending indicates that the writers want you to view it an ominous and dangerous.  It is also true that the music and tone of the dialog in the Synthesis ending indicates that the writers want you to view it as hopeful and opimistic.  

My Shepard took one look at Control and thought "Yes, that would be brilliant, I could do so much awesome for the galaxy with that". Then, because he isn't an idiot, he realised that's exactly the kind of attitude that means he shouldn't get to Control the Reapers. Power corrupts is only partly true - power attracts the corruptible tells a fuller story.

The only way (I believe) Control can be a genuinely good-forever ending is if the Shepard involved got to it through a process of elimination, viewing it as the least-worst choice rather than the best.

[Luxure]

@Heeden,
Done talking to you. Enjoy your Magic Synthesis Genocide.

Edit : You say your Shepard isn't an idiot, that's why he didn't choose Control. Yet, he chose Synthesis. I C WAT U DID DER.

Watch video, re-read 2nd line.

Modifié par Luxure, 05 juillet 2012 - 11:15 .

[Versus Omnibus]

Billyg3453 wrote...

Versus Omnibus wrote...

I'm fine with being a minority. But I think the only real way we can answer this question is if the Reaper's control over the Husks is still in effect or they just simply preprogrammed the Husks from the start.

I believed they reprogram their victims.
You believe they control them.

This is where we disagree. An ending debate has reached a conclusion!

The only one in this topic it would seem. 

[Heeden]

drewid78 wrote...

It is if your forcably put the wi-fi aerial in my head and make my skin glow and my eyes change colour... in fact why not just make us all white or black or male or female etc...

The wi-fi aeriel is unfortunate but ultimately harmless and you don't have to use it.

Why do you feel having uni-gendered or uni-chromal beings in the galaxy would be desirable?

[General User]

Hyrist wrote...

I'm not going to argue with Absolutism terms that imply that just because your opposition wishes to achieve a goal, that that goal is inherently wrong.

Illusive Man wanted to stop the Collectors, and he was most defiantly a twisted individual. The reasoning behind his goal may have been flawed, but cooperating with him assisted Shepard in stopping the Collector threat.

Just because the Catalyst wants to reach Synthesis, does not mean Synthesis is inherently wrong. Hatred should never be a factor in making sound judgement, here, people's hatred of the Reapers can cloud judgment.

If you don't like Synthesis on your own moral ground. That's fine. But just because it is a concept of an enemy, does not make that concept wrong. Assumptions are dangerous.

Easy with that open mind!  If you're not careful, your brain might fall out. 

You say "just because it is a concept of an enemy, does not make that concept wrong".  Fine.  What, if anything, about the Catalyst's philosophy (which holds Synthesis as the ultimate ideal) do you find to be in any way worthy?

Modifié par General User, 05 juillet 2012 - 11:17 .

[drewid78]

Heeden wrote...

drewid78 wrote...

It is if your forcably put the wi-fi aerial in my head and make my skin glow and my eyes change colour... in fact why not just make us all white or black or male or female etc...

The wi-fi aeriel is unfortunate but ultimately harmless and you don't have to use it.

Why do you feel having uni-gendered or uni-chromal beings in the galaxy would be desirable?

I just see being MADE to be glowy green with glowy eyes (a physical marker of my sameness) to be akin to being made into a uni sexual race or a uni-religious race ... you remove the differances that make us unique, true that this also removes the differences that causes the misunderstandings... but still you would be forcing me to conform to your ideal or be eaten/killed/mushed to form a new reaper

[Heeden]

Luxure wrote...

@Heeden,

The Jedi were idiots, Anakin was prophecied to "bring balance to the Force" at the time there were hundreds of Jedi and barely a handful of Sith, how did they think that equation would be balanced?

Done talking to you. Enjoy your Magic Synthesis Genocide.

Edit : You say your Shepard isn't an idiot, that's why he didn't choose Control. Yet, he chose Synthesis. I C WAT U DID DER.

Watch video, re-read 2nd line.

My Shepard didn't choose Control because he knew that he personally shouldn't have that amount of power. Also he didn't choose Synthesis, I went Destroy.

Also

[zambot]

drewid78 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

drewid78 wrote...

It is if your forcably put the wi-fi aerial in my head and make my skin glow and my eyes change colour... in fact why not just make us all white or black or male or female etc...

The wi-fi aeriel is unfortunate but ultimately harmless and you don't have to use it.

Why do you feel having uni-gendered or uni-chromal beings in the galaxy would be desirable?

I just see being MADE to be glowy green with glowy eyes (a physical marker of my sameness) to be akin to being made into a uni sexual race or a uni-religious race ... you remove the differances that make us unique, true that this also removes the differences that causes the misunderstandings... but still you would be forcing me to conform to your ideal or be eaten/killed/mushed to form a new reaper

Would synthesis be better if people did not have glowy eyes and integrated circuits on their skin?  Is it infeasible that an advanced civilization with unlimited knowledge could decide to eliminate those side effects?

[Heeden]

drewid78 wrote...
I just see being MADE to be glowy green with glowy eyes (a physical marker of my sameness) to be akin to being made into a uni sexual race or a uni-religious race ... you remove the differances that make us unique, true that this also removes the differences that causes the misunderstandings... but still you would be forcing me to conform to your ideal or be eaten/killed/mushed to form a new reaper

Adding similarities does not make us the same. If you own the same phone as another person it does not make you identical twins. If you wear the same t-shirt as someone you do not become the same person.

Turians stay Turians, Krogan stay Krogan, men are still men and women are still women (unless they're Asari). It's a strange way of looking at things, does the fact people all use the same internet on earth make us all identical? No - if it did this forum would have one thread saying "good game" and thousands of /signed posts.

[General User]

zambot wrote...

drewid78 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

drewid78 wrote...

It is if your forcably put the wi-fi aerial in my head and make my skin glow and my eyes change colour... in fact why not just make us all white or black or male or female etc...

The wi-fi aeriel is unfortunate but ultimately harmless and you don't have to use it.

Why do you feel having uni-gendered or uni-chromal beings in the galaxy would be desirable?

I just see being MADE to be glowy green with glowy eyes (a physical marker of my sameness) to be akin to being made into a uni sexual race or a uni-religious race ... you remove the differances that make us unique, true that this also removes the differences that causes the misunderstandings... but still you would be forcing me to conform to your ideal or be eaten/killed/mushed to form a new reaper

Would synthesis be better if people did not have glowy eyes and integrated circuits on their skin?  Is it infeasible that an advanced civilization with unlimited knowledge could decide to eliminate those side effects?

You mean cosmetic surgery?  We already had that.  Pretty dang advanced too.

[Hyrist]

Billyg3453 wrote...
Absolutely. That doesn't change the fact that Synthesis is what the Reapers want.

On that note, I'm note certain that the Reapers 'want' what the Catalyst wants - not willingly anyways. Leviathan DLC will determine this for us or at least shed light on the subject.

But if stating that Synthisis is what the Catalyst wants, and it is, by Proxy, the ultimate goal of the Reapers, yes, that would be a correct statment.

General User wrote...
You say "just because it is a concept of an enemy, does not make that concept wrong".  Fine.  What, if anything, about the Catalyst's philosophy (which holds Synthesis as the ultimate ideal) do you find to be in any way worthy?

Aside from the fact that a permanent solution to conflict between the deviding lines of Synthetic and Organic fell directly in line with the moral stances I took during the entirety of my campaign?

It was the ultimate solution. Destroying the Reapers risked the recreation of the entire problem over again. Someone had to Create the Catalyst for the whole Reaper problem to exist. It's easy for short-sighted organics to fall upon that same error again.

Control runs a greater risk of Shepard ultimately agreeing with the Catalyst after so many years of evidence proving that hey, a lasting peace can't be reached conventionally. We see the short term of it, sure, but down the line, nothing proves that Reapard truely understands the values of the personality infused in it.

Synthsis ends the debate decidedly by blurring the distinctive line between synthetic and organic. Furthermore, it also puts a decisive end to ignorance by sharing the exprience and knowledge base of all harvested and living life.

The Catalyst's interest in Synthisis only extends as far as it resolving the problem it was created to solve. And while it ultimately reaches that resolution, it also resolves quite a bit of other problems that plagues the Galaxy, and even our own forum boards. 

Sure, we wouldent lose the ability to disagree heatedly with one another, but those disagreements would only be made out of personal prefence and values, not out of a lack of perspective or information. The Catalyst says that the machines would gain an understanding of organics out of the deal - but truth be told, we'd also gain a far greater understanding of ourselves and one another as well.

It's too big of a prize to pass up.

[zambot]

General User wrote...

zambot wrote...

drewid78 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

drewid78 wrote...

It is if your forcably put the wi-fi aerial in my head and make my skin glow and my eyes change colour... in fact why not just make us all white or black or male or female etc...

The wi-fi aeriel is unfortunate but ultimately harmless and you don't have to use it.

Why do you feel having uni-gendered or uni-chromal beings in the galaxy would be desirable?

I just see being MADE to be glowy green with glowy eyes (a physical marker of my sameness) to be akin to being made into a uni sexual race or a uni-religious race ... you remove the differances that make us unique, true that this also removes the differences that causes the misunderstandings... but still you would be forcing me to conform to your ideal or be eaten/killed/mushed to form a new reaper

Would synthesis be better if people did not have glowy eyes and integrated circuits on their skin?  Is it infeasible that an advanced civilization with unlimited knowledge could decide to eliminate those side effects?

You mean cosmetic surgery?  We already had that.  Pretty dang advanced too.

So use it to remove the things you don't like, such as glowy eyes.

[zambot]

Heeden wrote...

drewid78 wrote...
I just see being MADE to be glowy green with glowy eyes (a physical marker of my sameness) to be akin to being made into a uni sexual race or a uni-religious race ... you remove the differances that make us unique, true that this also removes the differences that causes the misunderstandings... but still you would be forcing me to conform to your ideal or be eaten/killed/mushed to form a new reaper

Adding similarities does not make us the same. If you own the same phone as another person it does not make you identical twins. If you wear the same t-shirt as someone you do not become the same person.

Turians stay Turians, Krogan stay Krogan, men are still men and women are still women (unless they're Asari). It's a strange way of looking at things, does the fact people all use the same internet on earth make us all identical? No - if it did this forum would have one thread saying "good game" and thousands of /signed posts.

gg

[3DandBeyond]

Heeden wrote...

drewid78 wrote...

It is if your forcably put the wi-fi aerial in my head and make my skin glow and my eyes change colour... in fact why not just make us all white or black or male or female etc...

The wi-fi aeriel is unfortunate but ultimately harmless and you don't have to use it.

Why do you feel having uni-gendered or uni-chromal beings in the galaxy would be desirable?

Synthesis is the idea that people can never learn to get along but is only meant to address one aspect of this that creates chaos (supposedly).  It'a a valid question that if synthetics and organics must become more artificially aware through external means of each other's differences, even to the point of having that created new DNA, then why are no other conflicts to be solved in the same manner?  The Batarians are a particular problem (or have been).  Why then not synthesize them with everyone else to avoid conflict?

The whole thing that begins this long trail of revulsion for this is the idea that conflict in and of itself is always a bad thing-so too for chaos.  It's not true.  Many things are achieved often through that.  But further is the idea that the only way to avoid it is to remove the differences that cause it and that mutes the real joy that exists in those differences.  It's something that is repeatedly said about humans in ME-what is great about them is their diversity.  Mordin says the people look at the Asari as a truly great diverse race, but it's not so in his opinion-other than color he says they are way too similar.  This is most likely why they reproduce the way they do, for the genetic diversity.  And as a fairly non-diverse race the Asari had already begun to stagnate.  They have no desire to learn anything much-Aethyta wants to learn to make relays but is told no.  Most Asari gravitated to only a couple different avocations and a lot of that involves exotic or erotic arts.  Mordin sees humans as unique in their diversity.

In fact the kid also creates and recognizes that he has created conflict with the reapers, but he sees that as irrelevant.  But his chaos and conflict is the worst kind-because it is for no reason.  It's the least likely to ever involve any post-conflict growth or learning.  What I mean is after a conflict or full out war, many things can be learned even if it's just how to do better and avoid such conflict in the future.  Often, people at war can begin to understand their enemy and benefit from what has been horrific.  But it assumes a conflict that was created for a reason even a faulty one.

[drewid78]

if i had the same phone i could change it, the same t-shirt and i could change it... i see the invasion of synthesis, both cosmetic and fundamental (and unseen) to be akin to removing a conflict through making everyone the same. americas civil rights troubles?... no probs... poof now we all have the same skin colour. the crusades? poof now we all have the same religion... no war...

The problem is you force me (or whoever) to change who they are (in this case in both cosmetic and fundamental ways) so you have removed my freedoms.

to paraphrase dennis leery in demolition man... I would like to fight for my right to be a dick (or a different religion, or white/black,yellow or gay/straight or male/female or non part synthetic) you shouldnt force that wifi aerial into my head (whilst making me glow!) without my choice... and for all the talk of control being slavery, synthesis does force me to comply with your choice... which is kinda a form of slavery anyway (imho)

[Billyg3453]

Hyrist wrote...

Billyg3453 wrote...
Absolutely. That doesn't change the fact that Synthesis is what the Reapers want.

On that note, I'm note certain that the Reapers 'want' what the Catalyst wants - not willingly anyways. Leviathan DLC will determine this for us or at least shed light on the subject.

But if stating that Synthisis is what the Catalyst wants, and it is, by Proxy, the ultimate goal of the Reapers, yes, that would be a correct statment.

I appreciate you concedeing that point. On that we can agree,

General User wrote...

Aside from the fact that a permanent solution to conflict between the deviding lines of Synthetic and Organic fell directly in line with the moral stances I took during the entirety of my campaign?

This is where we differ. I have seen throughout ME3 that organics and synthetics can now cooperate and develop towards their potential without the aid of the Crucible.

Synthesis stresses that Synthetics (particularly EDI) are now "alive". Except Edi just told me 30 minutes ago she was alive, and the Geth already are conscience.

I'd rather have us reach Synthesis on our own, without the Reapers and their troops around.

[zambot]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Synthesis is the idea that people can never learn to get along but is only meant to address one aspect of this that creates chaos (supposedly).  

No no no no.  That is not the core value of synthesis.  Synthesis is the idea that after people attain ultimate knowledge and understanding, they will abandon violence and will get along.  It's tranhumanistic utopia.

And I say this as someone who thinks such a notion is utter nonsense, but that is the writers' intent.

[Yakko77]

Because when my Shep first saw Sovereign taking off from Eden Prime, the first thought through my head was, "Yeah, I think I'll have my Shep pick Green from out of no where and genetically manipulate the population of the entire galaxy in the last 10 minutes of the game and merge with them."

Seriously, I regard the "Reject" ending as a F U and I STILL hate the Synthesis ending more.

[Heeden]

zambot wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Synthesis is the idea that people can never learn to get along but is only meant to address one aspect of this that creates chaos (supposedly).  

No no no no.  That is not the core value of synthesis.  Synthesis is the idea that after people attain ultimate knowledge and understanding, they will abandon violence and will get along.  It's tranhumanistic utopia.

And I say this as someone who thinks such a notion is utter nonsense, but that is the writers' intent.

Actually I think Synthesis is more about giving us understanding of our differences so we can get along.

The potential for a post-scarcity transhumanist utopia is an added bonus.

[Hyrist]

3Dand.

You're making the false assumption that Syntisis itself ends any and all conflict on all scales. This is a false assumption. While people would be sharing information freely, that does not, by any current indication, result in the loss of conflict, but by the acceleration of peaceful debate.

The internet is an example of this. There is plenty of readily accessible information, but just because we access this information, does not mean we agree upon it. The only definable conflict it resolves in permanency is the synthetic/organic debate, because the line between such a distinction is blurred to obscurity.

That's not to say that the Krogan and Turian will never go at it again, especially if you picked Wreav to be in charge of a cured Krogan species. Though, I would say the odds of the Geth and Quarians going to war again are slim to none, now that the two species have a fully grasped understanding of one another.

[Nefla]

I have seen the results of synthesis. Synthesis is Saren, synthesis is TIM, synthesis is husks, and most of all synthesis is Reapers. No thank you.

[zambot]

Heeden wrote...

zambot wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Synthesis is the idea that people can never learn to get along but is only meant to address one aspect of this that creates chaos (supposedly).  

No no no no.  That is not the core value of synthesis.  Synthesis is the idea that after people attain ultimate knowledge and understanding, they will abandon violence and will get along.  It's tranhumanistic utopia.

And I say this as someone who thinks such a notion is utter nonsense, but that is the writers' intent.

Actually I think Synthesis is more about giving us understanding of our differences so we can get along.

The potential for a post-scarcity transhumanist utopia is an added bonus.

Actually you're right.  That would be the core value that the writers are trying to communicate with that ending.  They are communicating it via this transhumanist utopia they have created (through magic).

[Master Xanthan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Destroy: Sure the Catalyst and reapers die... but you achieve THEIR GOAL by destroying synthetics.

Synthesis: What the catalyst wanted, it does even SAY SO IN DIALOGUE.

The Catalyst states that choosing destroy will result in the cycle starting again without any sort of restriction. Using the Catalyst's words, their goal has been about the preservation of organic life.

Even if the destroy ending destroys all currently existing synthetics, if we're already taking the Catalyst's words as evidence, then we can definitively conclude that choosing destroy does not accomplish, in any way, the purpose of the Reapers. It's decidedly not what the Catalyst wanted, even excluding any sort of self preservation.

Nothing is stopping synthetic life from being created again. The Catalyst states this is actually inevitable. Whether or not they're doomed to fight organics is up to the future to prove the Catalyst wrong.


My $0.02

With the Destroy ending I don't think Organics will have too much trouble fighting off synthetics. In ME3 the Geth were having trouble handling just the Quarians, there's no way they could take on all organics. I don't think any future synthetics could be near as deadly as the Reapers.