1081 réponses à ce sujet

[Rhayak]

(i would like to make clear that i, for one, think the Asari did the most sensible thing)

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Rhayak wrote...

(i would like to make clear that i, for one, think the Asari did the most sensible thing)

I'm inclined to agree.

Which is a big deal because I'm not exactly a fan of the Asari.

[The Angry One]

Rhayak wrote...

(i would like to make clear that i, for one, think the Asari did the most sensible thing)

Well at least there's reason to be found here.

[alienatedflea]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

explaining stuff to die-hard pro-destroyers...is pointless..."Hardest thing to open is a closed mind"...Angry doesnt want a debate but more "yes men" to confirm her confirmation bias....

Is wanting the reapers dead really such a terrible thing?

considering there are better options than total destruction (very much a renegade option)....yes

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

alienatedflea wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

explaining stuff to die-hard pro-destroyers...is pointless..."Hardest thing to open is a closed mind"...Angry doesnt want a debate but more "yes men" to confirm her confirmation bias....

Is wanting the reapers dead really such a terrible thing?

considering there are better options than total destruction (very much a renegade option)....yes

And I am all for other people picking those other options.

I however will always destroy the bastards.

[darkpassenger2342]

i will always make peace and merge with them, because that is what the other cycles died for.

Modifié par darkpassenger2342, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:47 .

[The Angry One]

alienatedflea wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

explaining stuff to die-hard pro-destroyers...is pointless..."Hardest thing to open is a closed mind"...Angry doesnt want a debate but more "yes men" to confirm her confirmation bias....

Is wanting the reapers dead really such a terrible thing?

considering there are better options than total destruction (very much a renegade option)....yes

Becoming a God is an arrogant choice that leaves the galaxy open to your whim.
Synthesis is total capitulation.
I do not support destroy, as it murders our allies for no good reason, but at least it does what were were meant to do for 3 games - rid the galaxy of the Reaper abominations forever.

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

i will always make peace and merge with them, because that is what the other cycles died for.

*glances at join date*

Stop trying to flame-bait.

Modifié par The Angry One, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:49 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

i will always make peace and merge with them, because that is what the other cycles died for.

An...interesting way of looking at it.

This whole debate falls rather comfortably under the venue of "personal preference".

[Rhayak]

The Angry One wrote...

Synthesis is total capitulation.

I am trying to show you how it is not. Perhaps you didn't see my latest answer on the previous page but i'd like to continue the debate.

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

i will always make peace and merge with them, because that is what the other cycles died for.

Wait what? The other cycles died trying to kill the reapers where the hell do you get the merge thing? You really think mr "flush the thing out the airlock" Javik would want that?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

The Angry One wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

explaining stuff to die-hard pro-destroyers...is pointless..."Hardest thing to open is a closed mind"...Angry doesnt want a debate but more "yes men" to confirm her confirmation bias....

Is wanting the reapers dead really such a terrible thing?

considering there are better options than total destruction (very much a renegade option)....yes

Becoming a God is an arrogant choice that leaves the galaxy open to your whim.
Synthesis is total capitulation.
I do not support destroy, as it murders our allies for no good reason, but at least it does what were were meant to do for 3 games - rid the galaxy of the Reaper abominations forever.

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

i will always make peace and merge with them, because that is what the other cycles died for.

*glances at join date*

Stop trying to flame-bait.

Though to be fair the idea of ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL of ol Harby is deliciously ironic. Almost enough to make me go with the freaky Shep-god idea. Almost.

[Jackums]

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

I've seen the events and history of the game. [/quote]
Nowhere near a remotely significant amount to make the claims you're making.

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

Once again, all you have is an appeal to probability. That is not evidence.[/quote]
I'm appealing to logic; something your argument lacks.

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

It's claims are based on the extinction of organic life being inevitable.

"Without us, synthetics would destroy all organic life."

Conflict is a complete non-issue. There will always be conflict. This is not a problem that requires such a unilateral solution.[/quote]
Conflict between organics and synthetics is an entirely separate matter to simple "conflict", as one has the potential to surpass the other to a point where it's no longer conflict, but domination.

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

It is relevant to it's background, it claims the cycle is the only solution.
It demonstrates that it really doesn't try very hard to find alternatives. [/quote]
It clearly does not have the ability, as it states itself that the Crucible was what allowed it to consider new options.

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

They agreed to resist the Reapers. The end.[/quote]
Refuse is not resisting the Reapers. The end.

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

If you're going to boil down to "no u", I'm not even going to bother.[/quote]
I could say the same about your inability to differentiate between "interpretation" and "proof".

I'm not asking you to become pro-Synthesis, or even like it. I'm not even asking you to drop your horribly pessimistic speculation. I'm asking you to acknowledge that what you're saying is speculation.

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

They agreed to fight and die for freedom from the Reapers. Stop pretending what Shepard is saying doesn't reflect their ideals and desires too.[/quote]
It doesn't. Nowhere did anyone claim they'd rather be turned to mush than..

a) Sacrifice synthetics/technology and survive
Control the Reapers and survive
c) "Merge" with synthetics and survive

You're, again, headcanoning that galactic civilisation would prefer to die for no purpose other than pride.

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

I am stating that the Catalyst is the one presenting an ultimatum and demanding Shepard decide.
If you think destroy and reject decide fates, it's only because the Catalyst demands it be that way.[/quote]
Except they're not the only options. And again, I was only using your logic of "forcing something upon someone = unacceptable". Hence my point that, by your logic, the only valid choice is Control.

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

You yourself admit Shepard doesn't have the right to make such decisions, so how is in not fact that it's forced?[/quote]
Shepard doesn't have the right. But he's forced to do so anyway, for the well-being of others. And you're the one assuming everyone would prefer Option A to Option B, simply because that's what you want.

I'm making no such claims. I'm pointing out the invalidity of you doing so.

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

For the 500th time. An appeal to probability is not proof.[/quote]
Let me make this very simple.

Can we know, 100%, that something never occured over the last so many billion years? No. We cannot know unless we witness the last however many billion years. We have not witnessed said time period, therefore we cannot know. The fact that we cannot know is proof of the fact that we cannot know. I hope that's clear enough this time.

And in regards to your claim; for the 500th time, assumptions are not proof.

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

Evolution doesn't work that way, there is no "final" evolution. Calling it that is little more than Reaper propaganda, because THEY think it is the best.[/quote]
"Evolution" is nothing more than a man-made concept. Nothing is to say evolution cannot be unnatural other than the combined perception of reality that humans have created.

Evolution doesn't work that way by our logic, but our logic is nothing more than a result of our own perception.

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

That conflict exists entirely in their heads and does not reflect reality.[/quote]
You do not know this.

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

They promote Reaper existence as superior and work from there.[/quote]
Says you. I say they're programmed to solve and problem and work from there.

The problem here is neither I nor you have proof. I acknowledge this, whereas you refuse to.

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

Yeah. No. With your repeated appeals to probability you don't get to say that. Again, show me EVIDENCE that backs up your claims.

[/quote]
Show me evidence that backs yours. Nothing you've supplied has been more than your own interpretations.

Modifié par JackumsD, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:56 .

[The Angry One]

Rhayak wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Synthesis is total capitulation.

I am trying to show you how it is not. Perhaps you didn't see my latest answer on the previous page but i'd like to continue the debate.

And it is, you can make any justification you like, but it represents the desires of the Reapers, and nothing of anyone else.
"We are your genetic destiny."

[Rhayak]

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

i will always make peace and merge with them, because that is what the other cycles died for.

Wait what? The other cycles died trying to kill the reapers where the hell do you get the merge thing? You really think mr "flush the thing out the airlock" Javik would want that?

I think what she means is: other cycles died, each adding something to the crucible so that the current cycle could complete it and unlock the Synthesis option.

If you take a step back and look at it, it IS evolution.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

i will always make peace and merge with them, because that is what the other cycles died for.

Wait what? The other cycles died trying to kill the reapers where the hell do you get the merge thing? You really think mr "flush the thing out the airlock" Javik would want that?

Javik: I glow now... truly I feel at peace with the universe...I need to kill something *stalks off*

[darkpassenger2342]

The Angry One wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

explaining stuff to die-hard pro-destroyers...is pointless..."Hardest thing to open is a closed mind"...Angry doesnt want a debate but more "yes men" to confirm her confirmation bias....

Is wanting the reapers dead really such a terrible thing?

considering there are better options than total destruction (very much a renegade option)....yes

Becoming a God is an arrogant choice that leaves the galaxy open to your whim.
Synthesis is total capitulation.
I do not support destroy, as it murders our allies for no good reason, but at least it does what were were meant to do for 3 games - rid the galaxy of the Reaper abominations forever.

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

i will always make peace and merge with them, because that is what the other cycles died for.

*glances at join date*

Stop trying to flame-bait.

 you float from post to post, obviously all day long, for what appears to be weeks, trolling and insulting EVERY opinion that isnt yours. stop being such an aggressive jerkoff and consider other people have opinions.
i didnt contest his post, i said what i thought in roughly the same manner... im not baiting anyone. i like the synthesis ending and i agree with it. you dont. thats obvious.

Modifié par darkpassenger2342, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:53 .

[Afrolash]

Were the collectors the first attempt at Synthesis? They had significant genetic rewrite and had multiple systems replaced by tech.

[darkpassenger2342]

Afrolash wrote...

Were the collectors the first attempt at Synthesis? They had significant genetic rewrite and had multiple systems replaced by tech.

 no the keepers are.
as far as the lore can tell us.
 it never specifies what cycle they are from except that its one far in the past. it only says perhaps the one before the protheans, it could be more.

Modifié par darkpassenger2342, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:55 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

Afrolash wrote...

Were the collectors the first attempt at Synthesis? They had significant genetic rewrite and had multiple systems replaced by tech.

 no the keepers are.
as far as the lore can tell us.

I'm sure that the species that the Keepers used to be were absolutely thrilled to be that experiment!

They probably volunteered!


...Wait...

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

There is only one ending where the reapers are no longer a threat and that is destory. That should end it there. I don't think you people realize the corrupting influence of the reapers. Didn't you guys play Mass Effect 1 and 2? The problem with control and synthesis is that the reapers continue to figuratively breathe and while they are still running they are a threat. You have absolutely no idea what synthesis is like or control what you do know is what life would be like without giant 100 ft metal cuttlefish raining death from above. If that means the sacrifice of the geth and edi so be it they can be rebuilt organics can't.

[darkpassenger2342]

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

There is only one ending where the reapers are no longer a threat and that is destory. That should end it there. I don't think you people realize the corrupting influence of the reapers. Didn't you guys play Mass Effect 1 and 2? The problem with control and synthesis is that the reapers continue to figuratively breathe and while they are still running they are a threat. You have absolutely no idea what synthesis is like or control what you do know is what life would be like without giant 100 ft metal cuttlefish raining death from above. If that means the sacrifice of the geth and edi so be it they can be rebuilt organics can't.

ever heard the saying  guns dont shoot people, people do??
 well the reapers are the gun.

they dont think for themselves.
 they strived for an ideal that can be surmised as the only way for organic life to continue existence.
the had a role and synthesis fulfills it.
destroying the reapers would only reset the process.. and leave organics to restart the cycle and end themselves.

Modifié par darkpassenger2342, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:01 .

[The Angry One]

[quote]JackumsD wrote...

Nowhere near a remotely significant amount to make the claims you're making. [/quote]

Everything in the narrative supports me. NOTHING supports the Catalyst.

[quote]
I'm appealing to logic; something your argument lacks. [/quote]

An appeal to probability is a logical fallacy.

[quote]Conflict between organics and synthetics is entirely separate to simple "conflict", as one has the potential to surpass the other to a point where it's no longer conflict, but domination. [/quote]

Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions.
Also, domination is again not the issue. Extinction is. This is what the Catalyst claims.

[quote]It clearly does not have the ability, as it states itself that the Crucible was what allowed to to consider new options.[/quote]

Then how the hell was the cycle "the only solution"?
Either it's right because it's explored every option, or it's not. You've basically just admitted that it's wrong due to being inflexible.

[quote]Refuse is not resisting the Reapers. The end. [/quote]

It's fighting them to the very end instead of doing their bidding, it's the very definition of resistance.

[quote]
I could say the same about your inability to differentiate between "interpretation" and "proof".

I'm not asking you to become pro-Synthesis, or even like it. I'm not even asking you to drop your horribly pessimistic speculation. I'm asking you to acknowledge that what you're saying is speculation. [/quote]

Everything I say is based on the facts and dialogue presented in the game that fully contradict the "unicorns and puppies" message of synthesis.

[quote]It doesn't. Nowhere did anyone claim they'd rather be turned to mush than..

a) Sacrifice synthetics/technology and survive
Control the Reapers and survive
c) "Merge" with synthetics and survive

You're, again, headcanoning that galactic civilisation would prefer to die for no purpose other than pride. [/quote]

I'm stating that there was already a prior agreement to fight the Reapers, and in any case Shepard does not know any of those options will work as advertised, and no. Submission to the Reapers is not preferable to extinction. Talk to any squadmate and see what they have to say about that.

[quote]Except they're not the only options. And again, I was only using your logic of "forcing something upon someone = unacceptable". Hence my point that, by your logic, the only valid choice is Control. [/quote]

Faulty logic, destroy and reject are not forcing people to do anything they're not already doing.
Control forces them to live under Reaper rule for eternity.

[quote]Shepard doesn't have the right. But he's forced to do so anyway, for the well-being of others. And you're the one assuming everyone would prefer Option A to Option B, simply because that's what you want.

I'm make no such claims. I'm pointing out the invalidity of you doing so. [/quote]

I'm pointing out that option A is what people have already chosen, and option B changes them into the very thing they're fighting.

[quote]
Let me make this very simple.

Can we know, 100%, that something never occured over the last so many billion years? No. We cannot know unless we witness the last however many billion years. Therefore we cannot know. The fact that we cannot know is proof of the fact that we cannot know. I hope that's clear enough this time.

And in regards to your claim; for the 500th time, assumptions are not proof. [/quote]

We can know, because the Catalyst never gives an example. Never backs up it's claims. Always causes the problems it claims to prevent. Demonstrates it's inflexibility and stupidity at every turn.

Events from this cycle and the last prove it wrong. It's own descriptions of it's origin prove it wrong. All you have is "well, in billions of years it could happen!" Not good enough. 

[quote]

"Evolution" is nothing more than a man-made concept. Nothing is to say evolution cannot be unnatural other than the combined perception of reality that humans have created.

Evolution doesn't work that way by our logic, but our logic is nothing more than a result of our own perception. [/quote]

Oh god I did not just read that... oh I did didn't I. Sigh.

Evolution is a natural process which we have named.
That is not "man-made" any more than gravity is.

[quote]
You do not know this. [/quote]

I do. Show me proof to the contrary.

[quote]Says you. I say they're programmed to solve and problem and work from there.

The problem here is neither I nor you have proof. I acknowledge this, whereas you refuse to. [/quote]

Because I have proof and you have none. 

[quote]
Show me evidence that backs yours. Nothing you've supplied has been more than your own interpretations.

[/quote]

I have, multiple times. Quotes, examples and precident from within the narrative. You've given me nothing.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

There is only one ending where the reapers are no longer a threat and that is destory. That should end it there. I don't think you people realize the corrupting influence of the reapers. Didn't you guys play Mass Effect 1 and 2? The problem with control and synthesis is that the reapers continue to figuratively breathe and while they are still running they are a threat. You have absolutely no idea what synthesis is like or control what you do know is what life would be like without giant 100 ft metal cuttlefish raining death from above. If that means the sacrifice of the geth and edi so be it they can be rebuilt organics can't.

ever heard the saying  guns dont shoot people, people do??
 well the reapers are the gun.

they dont think for themselves.
 they strived for an ideal that can be surmised as the only way for organic life to continue existence.
the had a role and synthesis fulfills it.

...Star Brat thinks for itself.

And it decided that regular galactic genocides are the way to go.

So you'll forgive me if I blow the damn things up.

[darkpassenger2342]

TAO< no you havent. all you did was argue his points against him.
nothing concrete, just blatant disagreement.

[Rhayak]

The Angry One wrote...

"We are your genetic destiny."

That's just what Harbinger repeated as a void attempt to imtimidate Shepard. It does not reflect what destiny actually is.
The very Refusal ending proves that, as the Galaxy ultimately gets rid of Reapers.

Synthesis is not total capitulation. Letting the Reapers win is.
If anything, Synthesis is the best compromise. A peace condition that satisfies everyone, Reapers included.

Xcept those who hate green O_O

(i have a side question: do you think Rorschac in The Watchmen movie would have done the right thing by revealing Ozymandias' design?)

Modifié par Rhayak, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:05 .