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Synthesis is what the Reapers want


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#1001
The Angry One

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Rhayak wrote...

"Hi, i'm the boss of your enemies. As you know you have no chance of defeating us conventionally, but i offer you three alternatives to annihilation, which include killing us all or even becoming the new boss. You have until you die from a combination of heavy bleeding and third-degree burns to decide."

That's one weird ultimatum O_O

Of all four endings, perhaps Control is the one that doesn't impose anything. In Synthesis, i impose a change that saves everyone. In Rejection, you impose death.

(and please don't mention the possibility of the Cata lying because there's nothing concrete pro or against it)


It's a Reaper. The possibility of it lying is there. You can't ignore it.
And yes, they're ultimatums, each with an arbitrary penalty to promote synthesis, it's true goal.

Also, Shepard is not bleeding to death, whether you consider it a handwave or not BioWare already said Shep lives after destroy (and is apparently explosion proof). Let it go.


Look, even if we set aside all discussion on how Synthesis affects both us and the reapers and how, the majority of people out there, both in Mass Effect and the real world, would rather be alive than free.
We are in no position to despise them.


Alive and subjigated by the Reapers?
You might argue that for destroy. I don't consider the lives of billions of innocents a price worth paying, but fine.
But synthesis? Changed forever to suit them? No thanks.

Again with the damn Zha'til. Javik says they were an example of what happened with the Quarians and Geth, but they are only one episode, one that doesn't prove the Galaxy isn't bound to kill itself via synthetics anyway.

(again, Cata possibly not lying)


Yes again with the Zha'til. They're everything the Catalyst says can't happen. Harmony. Synthesis by choice. And what did the Reapers do to them? Destroyed them, turned them into monsters to do their bidding.

The Reapers are the only problem.

The Reapers are not directly guiding us in Synthesis. No more than a crane rebuilding a skyscraper guides those who frolic in the park next to it. The fact that both we and the crane glow green is of little importance.
This gives a pretty clear image of how non-intrusive the Synthesis change is.


Synthesis itself is an act of permanent guidance. It sets all life on one specific, Reaper approved path.

The uplifting issue is an interesting one: if you give a medieval king a nuke, stuff can wind up.
But in Synthesis, all galaxy gets the same amount of tech at the same time. That is a HUGE war deterrent if you stick to the "still belligerant" vision.


How? All being equal is not going to solve everything. The Krogan were made "equal" to the Council species and look what happened there.

Ye of course, but in the Watchmen setting, nuclear war was inevitable and fabricating a common enemy worked. I say thank God Manhattan turnet Rorschac into Rorschac. O_O


Perceived as inevitable. For a while in our history, it was the same. Again, fabricating a common enemy works temporarily. How long until fear of that enemy vanishes? How long until they start pointing fingers at each other? 
What then? More common enemies? More deaths to maintain false peace?

By the way, Watchmen ends with the possibility that the truth is exposed. It's not said one way or the other but left up to the reader to decide. It certainly isn't preached at us that YES! This is the solution! Puppies and ponies! Hooray!

#1002
Dean_the_Young

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General User wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

General User wrote...

The Sink Gang was a lot of fun I do have to say.  I just think that a world where every appliance and plumbing fixture had it's own nerosis would get a little... trying.

I'd hate to be the toilet.

...god, why didn't the Sink have a toilet? Or a garbage bin?

Do you remember that blue grass in front of the Think Tank?

I'll probably regret admitting this, but...

No.




(And with that, I'm off to work.)

#1003
General User

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

General User wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

General User wrote...

The Sink Gang was a lot of fun I do have to say.  I just think that a world where every appliance and plumbing fixture had it's own nerosis would get a little... trying.

I'd hate to be the toilet.

...god, why didn't the Sink have a toilet? Or a garbage bin?

Do you remember that blue grass in front of the Think Tank?

I'll probably regret admitting this, but...

No.

Well, let's just say it was originally developed to be installed in dog parks.

Modifié par General User, 06 juillet 2012 - 12:58 .


#1004
Rhayak

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The Angry One wrote...
It's a Reaper. The possibility of it lying is there. You can't ignore it.
And yes, they're ultimatums, each with an arbitrary penalty to promote synthesis, it's true goal.

Also, Shepard is not bleeding to death, whether you consider it a handwave or not BioWare already said Shep lives after destroy (and is apparently explosion proof). Let it go.


(I read somewhere that if you just stand there and do nothing, after a while you CRITICAL MISSION FAILURE. But i never bothered to verify it. Oh well.)

Synthesis also has a penalty, actually. You die O_O. It's worse than Control, where you keep existing in another form, and even Destroy, where you just might survive.
Yes Cata tells you it's the "ideal solution" so yes, it may be his actual goal.
Well, then: if his goal is to provide a new, better alternative to the harvest, let it be welcome, no?

As i said, it might lie but it might not. It's 50/50 so we really shouldn't lean on it anymore.

Alive and subjigated by the Reapers?


Again, they look all but subjugated to me. Did Harbinger order Falere to pick a particular red flower?

But synthesis? Changed forever to suit them? No thanks.


We suit them, they suit us. It becomes symbiotic really. I guess this is where we unrepairably part.

Yes again with the Zha'til. They're everything the Catalyst says can't happen. Harmony. Synthesis by choice. And what did the Reapers do to them? Destroyed them, turned them into monsters to do their bidding.

The Reapers are the only problem.


I said it before: the Zhatil are only one episode. Wonderful and stuff, but not enough to veer the galaxy away from the inevitable outcome that Reapers were made to prevent.

Synthesis itself is an act of permanent guidance. It sets all life on one specific, Reaper approved path.


A path of wonders and glory, free from the cycle forever. 

How? All being equal is not going to solve everything. The Krogan were made "equal" to the Council species and look what happened there.


How? Exactly the way it does in reality. Everyone having nuclear weapons caused the nations to calm down and ponder different solutions other than war (cold war!).
Yes that does not end violence in some areas, but i really don't see another world war happening. If some change worsened the world situation, then maybe, just maybe.
But in Mass Effect you have a whole galaxy to house and nourish you.

The Krogan were just given modern guns, put on starships and pointed at the Rachni. What happened was a combination of tech-culture disparity and their exceptionally violent nature.
The Asari had every possible tech edge at hand, but decided to use them gradually.
So bottom line: what happened was due to the Krogan (who had a millennia to reconsider), not a rule of what happens when races get new tech. 

Anyway it's good that you brought them in as an example, since it allows reconnection with the genophage-harvest similitude. The best solution, until the situation changes.

Perceived as inevitable. For a while in our history, it was the same. Again, fabricating a common enemy works temporarily. How long until fear of that enemy vanishes? How long until they start pointing fingers at each other? 
What then? More common enemies? More deaths to maintain false peace?


An everlasting fabrication of lies and pruning of people to prevent total destruction....
Oh my god, i AM a Reaper :D

Modifié par Rhayak, 06 juillet 2012 - 01:39 .


#1005
3DandBeyond

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zambot wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Synthesis is the idea that people can never learn to get along but is only meant to address one aspect of this that creates chaos (supposedly).  


No no no no.  That is not the core value of synthesis.  Synthesis is the idea that after people attain ultimate knowledge and understanding, they will abandon violence and will get along.  It's tranhumanistic utopia.

And I say this as someone who thinks such a notion is utter nonsense, but that is the writers' intent.



Yes I understand that.  I was saying that the writers are saying this can never be achieved without artificial external or internal change.  Using synthesis is giving up on the idea that people can attain understanding or common ground on their own.  This is what I find repugnant about it after it has been forced upon unknowing people.  It's the fatalistic notion that starts from the kid spewing created/creator and that chaos nonsense.  And then he says people aspire to be perfect through tech (a total lie by the writers) and that synthesis is the end goal of evolution.  Only in the most warped mind.

Synthetic beings no matter what are still created and not born.  Evolution they might attain is through a much different process than is the evolution of any organic being.  I have no problem seeing both as people, alive in their own right.  I do not think that eventually nature will decide to combine the 2 because of their vastly different origins.  No matter what the kid says, it must in some way be forced.  But, if you buy into the concept that it could happen, then what would be needed for that jump to be made would be exactly what the kid wants to avoid-chaos.  That is what often causes the biggest "mutations" in evolution.  It is randomness that explodes.

My main point was that both control and synthesis say the same things.  If chosen they both say that people cannot "fix" things without intervention or force.  Control maintains the implication of force as a way to move things in a certain direction-the physical nature of the reapers there to keep the peace and to direct advancement and tech.  Synthesis creates a forced internal change that also directs advancement.  Both say people can't avoid or address conflict and that they should not self-determine and cannot be self-reliant.  And yet, one human showed it was possible.  And the whole galaxy followed that one human and so too showed it was possible.

#1006
Cutlass Jack

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The Angry One wrote...

It's a Reaper. The possibility of it lying is there. You can't ignore it.
And yes, they're ultimatums, each with an arbitrary penalty to promote synthesis, it's true goal.


Faulty conclusion. Since you clearly believe it can lie, if its true goal is Synthesis, it never would tell you about the other two buttons. It wouldnt bother coming up with arbitrary penalties at all. Or at least come up with better ones.

Especially since he gives Control and Synthesis essentially the same penalty. 'You die.'

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 06 juillet 2012 - 01:51 .


#1007
Guest_Rubios_*

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Welsh Inferno wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Fact. 


http://www.memecreator.net/creepy-wonka/showimage.php/47684/you-keep-using-that-word-i-don't-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means.jpg


I just spat my mouth full of coke all over the monitor.

Not cool bro... 

#1008
TakedaMauro

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Rhayak wrote...

I said it before: the Zhatil are only one episode. Wonderful and stuff, but not enough to veer the galaxy away from the inevitable outcome that Reapers were made to prevent.


What "inevitable outcome" are you talking about?, where's the proof of that?, for all we know, organics existed and still exist in the ME universe, they were never wiped out by synthetics. In addition to that,  2 of the synthetics races that we have knowledge about were peaceful (Zha'til) or we achived peace with them (Geth), and they were hostiles against organics in general only by the influence of Reapers.

The third synthetic race is the Reapers, and they are the only ones trying to wipe out organics in a methodic way, they seem to be the problem they are trying to correct.

If by proof of the "inevitable outcome" you refer to the ramblings of the Catalyst, I guess the EC made very clear that his logic is faulty and at very least it's a malfunctioning AI.

#1009
Ridwan

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Are people still trying to argue that being turned into a green lobotomised freak is a good idea?

#1010
darkpassenger2342

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M25105 wrote...

Are people still trying to argue that being turned into a green lobotomised freak is a good idea?

absolutely.

#1011
Rhayak

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TakedaMauro wrote...
If by proof of the "inevitable outcome" you refer to the ramblings of the Catalyst, I guess the EC made very clear that his logic is faulty and at very least it's a malfunctioning AI.


No. What's said in the EC is that the Catalyst's creators did not agree with his solution (not surprising O_O).
That does not make the Catalyst mad/malfunctioning.

If he was truly malfunctioning, he wouldn't have recognized his solution as no longer valid, thus presenting you with the choices. Choices that include Synthesis, if you upgrade the Crucible enough.

#1012
Rhayak

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M25105 wrote...

Are people still trying to argue that being turned into a green lobotomised freak is a good idea?


Being green is brought on by Synthesis.

Being lobotomized is up to people, really.

#1013
Ridwan

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Rhayak wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Are people still trying to argue that being turned into a green lobotomised freak is a good idea?


Being green is brought on by Synthesis.

Being lobotomized is up to people, really.


If mister X, who swore revenge on the Reapers after he lost his entire family and all of his friends, suddenly becomes best friends with husks and Reapers responsible for the death of his loved ones. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that his brain ain't working right.

So either Synthesis means we just killed every living thing in the galaxy and become green drones, or it means we're getting mass lobotomised. Either way, we become a freak.

#1014
Arctican

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M25105 wrote...

Are people still trying to argue that being turned into a green lobotomised freak is a good idea?


If you put it that way, yah, that's a horrible idea. However, other people interpret it quite different, which is why people are still arguing for Synthesis. 

#1015
Rhayak

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M25105 wrote...

If mister X, who swore revenge on the Reapers after he lost his entire family and all of his friends, suddenly becomes best friends with husks and Reapers responsible for the death of his loved ones. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that his brain ain't working right.



The animosity issue has already been addressed. Synthesis does not mean that everyone automatically becomes friends with the Reapers. It just means the war ends.

Mister X will probably stay angry for a while, but not forever.

#1016
Guest_Rubios_*

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M25105 wrote...

Are people still trying to argue that being turned into a green lobotomised freak is a good idea?


 I assume that is FACT™ , right?

Modifié par Rubios, 06 juillet 2012 - 02:35 .


#1017
Ridwan

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Rubios wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Are people still trying to argue that being turned into a green lobotomised freak is a good idea?


 I assume that is FACT™ , right?


Yup.

#1018
Arctican

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Rhayak wrote...

M25105 wrote...

If mister X, who swore revenge on the Reapers after he lost his entire family and all of his friends, suddenly becomes best friends with husks and Reapers responsible for the death of his loved ones. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that his brain ain't working right.



The animosity issue has already been addressed. Synthesis does not mean that everyone automatically becomes friends with the Reapers. It just means the war ends.

Mister X will probably stay angry for a while, but not forever.





Not like mister X can do much against a 2km capital ship. The reaper would probably let mister X shoot him all he wants until he gets tired or run out of ammo.

Modifié par Arctican, 06 juillet 2012 - 02:39 .


#1019
Ridwan

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Rhayak wrote...

M25105 wrote...

If mister X, who swore revenge on the Reapers after he lost his entire family and all of his friends, suddenly becomes best friends with husks and Reapers responsible for the death of his loved ones. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that his brain ain't working right.



The animosity issue has already been addressed. Synthesis does not mean that everyone automatically becomes friends with the Reapers. It just means the war ends.

Mister X will probably stay angry for a while, but not forever.




The war can only end when Reapers have all been killed. You can't forgive the monstrous act they've done. They need to die. End of story. Otherwise everyone who likes Synthesis have 0 sense of justice and yes you guys do advocate that it's better to be turned into a green drone like freak than to stand up and spit the Reapers in their face.

#1020
Guest_Rubios_*

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M25105 wrote...

Rubios wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Are people still trying to argue that being turned into a green lobotomised freak is a good idea?


 I assume that is FACT™ , right?


Yup.


You convinced me then, I don't want to live in this galaxy anymore. 

#1021
3DandBeyond

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darkpassenger2342 wrote...

@TAO
no, they are capable of independant thought as well, like legion...
starchild explains this at the same time he tells you HE CONTROLS THEM
 i love how you guys read something in the game, and interpret HALF of it as fact and the other half as a lie, then come here to only contest the half you think is the lie and believe the other crap so easily.


The kid repeatedly contradicts himself and then makes little sense when he says other things.

He says he was created.  He says he created the first reaper by putting his creators inside it (the construct that existed apparently was turned into a reaper when he put his creators in it against their will).  He also says he is the combinged intelligence of all reapers.  He controls the reapers.  The citadel is a part of him.

Ok. He was created by "people" who are now reapers and he is the reapers and he controls the reapers that he created.

His home, the citadel is a part of him--so, where did the 3 choices come from that are clearly a part of the citadel that is a part of him?  The crucible is simplistic and merely sends out energy (retconned not to be Mr. Magic that people shouldn't have been able to build) and yet, it changed the kid and his solution won't work anymore.  Why not?  And how did Mr. Not Magic, but simple energy MacGuffin change the kid?  Somebody is either lying or there's more retconning that needs to be done.

The reapers, clearly have sentience.  They have intelligence and are not roving bands of space sharks that wait for the kid to speak.  Sovereign says things that totally contradict the kid.  Harbinger says things that back up what Sovereign says but contradict the kid.

The kid says the reapers are acting like a cleansing fire and that fire doesn't know or care about conflict.  But Sovereign and Harbinger both indicated a desire to hurt people.  Cleansing fires don't talk at all.  And the kid clearly knows the difference.

Why would he lie?  Gee, why would anyone?  Maybe to get you to do what he wants.  He was given a task that was impossible for him to do being unfeeling and without nuance or understanding. 

The problem we are left with is not only that the choices all stink and don't do honor to the abilities and wishes and desires and autonomy of people AND we have no idea who came up with these choices.  They seem to be a function of the citadel, because the choice consoles are there and the writers wanted to mute the space magic of the crucible.  But either the citadel or crucible is a magical item.  And either one could have been the kid's design or that of his creators, something he may have cast aside as a solution.  The fact they all stink really points to one of these-the choices could even be a combination of his creator's and his solutions.

#1022
Dessalines

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It is very simple. See stories have devices to let the reader know whjat is going on. Intelligent writers use these devices. One is foreshadowing. We have a character in the first triology that is clearly a pawn of an antagonist. talking about how organics can be saved if they just meld with machines, then when the story mentions it again you as the reader should realize you are the pawn of antagonist, especially when the antagonist is speaking to you. Javik speaks about species becoming dependent on technology that they became a slave race to their creations.
On the synthetic side, no one was looking to ruly understanding humans The Geth were wanting to know if they evolved enough to truly be alive that they actually have souls. The same as EDi.
Is there no life in the other Galaxies, because if there is then none of the endings make any sense.

#1023
Arctican

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M25105 wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

M25105 wrote...

If mister X, who swore revenge on the Reapers after he lost his entire family and all of his friends, suddenly becomes best friends with husks and Reapers responsible for the death of his loved ones. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that his brain ain't working right.



The animosity issue has already been addressed. Synthesis does not mean that everyone automatically becomes friends with the Reapers. It just means the war ends.

Mister X will probably stay angry for a while, but not forever.




The war can only end when Reapers have all been killed. You can't forgive the monstrous act they've done. They need to die. End of story. Otherwise everyone who likes Synthesis have 0 sense of justice and yes you guys do advocate that it's better to be turned into a green drone like freak than to stand up and spit the Reapers in their face.


If they can help rebuild the galactic community faster, I see no reason to immediately dispose of them. You don't have to forgive them. I wouldn't, but I think killing is far too easy of a way out of a proper punishment.

#1024
3DandBeyond

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Rubios wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Rubios wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Are people still trying to argue that being turned into a green lobotomised freak is a good idea?


 I assume that is FACT™ , right?


Yup.


You convinced me then, I don't want to live in this galaxy anymore. 


You know it all comes down to this.  Some people have no problem with it if it is supposed to happen to someone else, but ask them if they'd like it and the truth is no they wouldn't.  I think this defines our different abilities.  Many of us don't have to see it through our own eyes, what we would or wouldn't want.  We can imagine there are those that wouldn't like it and we see it for what it is.  It is wrong on so many levels that it isn't even funny that some people think it's just way cool.  Personalize it and it's not so cool anymore.

#1025
SparkyRich

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PinkysPain wrote...
Synthesis - reaping has never been this efficient


This is funny.  Awesome - actually laughed out loud, my room mate thinks I'm nuts again.

Thanks - great opener to my Friday!