1081 réponses à ce sujet

[Rhayak]

M25105 wrote...

The war can only end when Reapers have all been killed. You can't forgive the monstrous act they've done. They need to die. End of story. Otherwise everyone who likes Synthesis have 0 sense of justice and yes you guys do advocate that it's better to be turned into a green drone like freak than to stand up and spit the Reapers in their face.

If Reapers stop fighting and start rebuilding cities for free, you don't keep firing at them unless you're a moron or the trigger is stuck.

Reapers harvested the galaxy for millions of years? Now they will spend millions more helping it develop. 

That is justice. Destruction only creates a galaxy-wide third world without relays or citadel, with Krogan cannibalizing everyone stuck in Sol.

[3DandBeyond]

Arctican wrote...


If they can help rebuild the galactic community faster, I see no reason to immediately dispose of them. You don't have to forgive them. I wouldn't, but I think killing is far too easy of a way out of a proper punishment.

The problem all along has been their "help".  Every bit of tech is based upon reaper designs and as such is unoriginal.  The galaxy would actually thrive without them.  And to say that people wouldn't have to forgive them is to minimize the scope of what they've done and still could do.  If they existed in the real world of course it would be easier to see.  But I envision a mother who saw her family killed and now wonders which reaper has the goo of her kids inside it.

And getting them to fix things is not punishment-it's having them do what they've done before.  Non-existence even if not a tortuous punishment is the only solution for the reapers and that will allow people to advance along their own path.  The sacrifice exists in not having everything given as a handout-and the need to learn, really learn and invent new ways.  As it was anyone that wanted to make or learn to make a relay was told not to bother.  And Mordin said it that strife creates invention-need for a wheel causes its invention.  It's character building through adversity.  And that is not all bad.

[Rhayak]

Dessalines wrote...
We have a character in the first triology that is clearly a pawn of an antagonist. talking about how organics can be saved if they just meld with machines, then when the story mentions it again you as the reader should realize you are the pawn of antagonist, especially when the antagonist is speaking to you.

Saren was indoctrinated and rambling. He never imagined the Crucible or Catalyst existed. He was an example of flesh-machine union by being a gruesome graft-job.

MAYBE not even Bioware did imagine it at that time, but that's beside the point.

[3DandBeyond]

Rhayak wrote...

M25105 wrote...

The war can only end when Reapers have all been killed. You can't forgive the monstrous act they've done. They need to die. End of story. Otherwise everyone who likes Synthesis have 0 sense of justice and yes you guys do advocate that it's better to be turned into a green drone like freak than to stand up and spit the Reapers in their face.

If Reapers stop fighting and start rebuilding cities for free, you don't keep firing at them unless you're a moron or the trigger is stuck.

Reapers harvested the galaxy for millions of years? Now they will spend millions more helping it develop. 

That is justice. Destruction only creates a galaxy-wide third world without relays or citadel, with Krogan cannibalizing everyone stuck in Sol.

Well, that's not the future Hackett sees.  And no one but TIM wanted the reapers to remain, no matter what.  It was always the goal.

Consider what happens in the real world with animals that are obviously acting on instinct.  Sharks that kill people are killed.  Dogs that kill people are killed.

The problem is this-people don't know if they can trust living reapers and they don't want to.  Sure revenge is a part of it, but so too is the disgusting thought that they have people goo in them.  And they may only get one chance to destroy them-the idea that they could one day wake up and "get hungry" again or that they will still need people goo isn't something people could or would live with.  And maybe some will think it's ok for reapers to be fix it men and repair stuff, but a lot of people would not.  No Turian seeing what was done on Palaven would.  No human military man would-Hackett says this to Shepard before the Cronos mission if you say you aren't ready to go and then go talk to him.  He wants them destroyed--no matter the cost.

I don't think things could possibly be idyllic after destroying them-I think sacrificing EDI and the geth is one of the most insensitive things a writer has ever done in a video game.  I do however think destroying the reapers once and for all is the only real choice if you trust and must pick one.  They are an abomination led by a warped AI that we know so very little about.  How he came to be warped and how the reapers really came to be and what they think and feel and might still do is too big a risk to take with too many open questions.  Destroying them causes at least certainty where they are concerned and they are the threat that exists now.

[Ridwan]

Rhayak wrote...

M25105 wrote...

The war can only end when Reapers have all been killed. You can't forgive the monstrous act they've done. They need to die. End of story. Otherwise everyone who likes Synthesis have 0 sense of justice and yes you guys do advocate that it's better to be turned into a green drone like freak than to stand up and spit the Reapers in their face.

If Reapers stop fighting and start rebuilding cities for free, you don't keep firing at them unless you're a moron or the trigger is stuck.

Reapers harvested the galaxy for millions of years? Now they will spend millions more helping it develop. 

That is justice. Destruction only creates a galaxy-wide third world without relays or citadel, with Krogan cannibalizing everyone stuck in Sol.

If the Reapers did that, then they achieved their goal, since we're no longer ourselves, but a bunch of green drones. Mission Accomplished for the Reapers, now they can get into nation building lol.

Wrex would be ashamed of anyone picking Synthesis.

[3DandBeyond]

Rhayak wrote...

Dessalines wrote...
We have a character in the first triology that is clearly a pawn of an antagonist. talking about how organics can be saved if they just meld with machines, then when the story mentions it again you as the reader should realize you are the pawn of antagonist, especially when the antagonist is speaking to you.

Saren was indoctrinated and rambling. He never imagined the Crucible or Catalyst existed. He was an example of flesh-machine union by being a gruesome graft-job.

MAYBE not even Bioware did imagine it at that time, but that's beside the point.

Yes, Saren was indoctrinated.  And he was implanted by Sovereign in order to achieve a form of synthesis-one of those things that failed.

In ME3 at the end the only choice the writers have given is for Shepard to become a possible willing pawn of the reapers, merely because he throws a lot of words at you.  If the kid looked like Sovereign or TIM, there'd be a lot more questioning his motives and the origins of the choices, which is why he is trying to look innocent.

[Arctican]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Arctican wrote...


If they can help rebuild the galactic community faster, I see no reason to immediately dispose of them. You don't have to forgive them. I wouldn't, but I think killing is far too easy of a way out of a proper punishment.

The problem all along has been their "help".  Every bit of tech is based upon reaper designs and as such is unoriginal.  The galaxy would actually thrive without them.  And to say that people wouldn't have to forgive them is to minimize the scope of what they've done and still could do.  If they existed in the real world of course it would be easier to see.  But I envision a mother who saw her family killed and now wonders which reaper has the goo of her kids inside it.

And getting them to fix things is not punishment-it's having them do what they've done before.  Non-existence even if not a tortuous punishment is the only solution for the reapers and that will allow people to advance along their own path.  The sacrifice exists in not having everything given as a handout-and the need to learn, really learn and invent new ways.  As it was anyone that wanted to make or learn to make a relay was told not to bother.  And Mordin said it that strife creates invention-need for a wheel causes its invention.  It's character building through adversity.  And that is not all bad.

The state of the galaxy after the reaper war is probably much worse than that of any other wars. While I agree with you now that we probably can't punish Reapers any way other then killing them and that we need to find our own path, a lot more people are going to die in the post-war if they're not given immediate aid. 

[TakedaMauro]

Rhayak wrote...

No. What's said in the EC is that the Catalyst's creators did not agree with his solution (not surprising O_O).
That does not make the Catalyst mad/malfunctioning.

If he was truly malfunctioning, he wouldn't have recognized his solution as no longer valid, thus presenting you with the choices. Choices that include Synthesis, if you upgrade the Crucible enough.

EDI was able to change her core programming with only the analysis of new variables gathered through observation and experience, in the other hand the Catalyst is stucked in performing his cycle disregarding any new data until a giant battery is shoved up his nethers against his will.

If he were a fully functional and truly AI (as an intelligence trying to check all the possibilities in order to fix a problem), he should have considered the new variables presented by the existence of the Za'thil and Geth or at least allowed the construction of the Crucible cycles ago.

[3DandBeyond]

Arctican wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Arctican wrote...


If they can help rebuild the galactic community faster, I see no reason to immediately dispose of them. You don't have to forgive them. I wouldn't, but I think killing is far too easy of a way out of a proper punishment.

The problem all along has been their "help".  Every bit of tech is based upon reaper designs and as such is unoriginal.  The galaxy would actually thrive without them.  And to say that people wouldn't have to forgive them is to minimize the scope of what they've done and still could do.  If they existed in the real world of course it would be easier to see.  But I envision a mother who saw her family killed and now wonders which reaper has the goo of her kids inside it.

And getting them to fix things is not punishment-it's having them do what they've done before.  Non-existence even if not a tortuous punishment is the only solution for the reapers and that will allow people to advance along their own path.  The sacrifice exists in not having everything given as a handout-and the need to learn, really learn and invent new ways.  As it was anyone that wanted to make or learn to make a relay was told not to bother.  And Mordin said it that strife creates invention-need for a wheel causes its invention.  It's character building through adversity.  And that is not all bad.

The state of the galaxy after the reaper war is probably much worse than that of any other wars. While I agree with you now that we probably can't punish Reapers any way other then killing them and that we need to find our own path, a lot more people are going to die in the post-war if they're not given immediate aid. 

Yes, but using the reapers to help is like pouring salt in a wound.  To make it more real, I doubt that people would have wanted Jeffrey Dahmer working as an EMT on an ambulance.

The people of the galaxy also do not know (if you choose control) what is happening to the reapers.  They may see them fix things, but wonder why and still try to destroy them.  Yes, people may need aid, but far better that it come in whatever form from other people than reapers.  I also believe that is the time when they need living heroes the most-to find a way.  The relays are also said not to be totally destroyed (though this is still a problem for me that they tried to retcon).

Sure the galaxy is a mess.  No doubt.  But, if that's the price for no more reapers then so be it.  Hackett says the only way to solve the reaper problem is no more reapers in new dialogue before Cronos.  He also says some other scathing things about TIM and Control.

[Crysis I]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

You seem to be the first BioWare employee who remotely likes Destroy, Allan. It's a nice change of pace.

I was a fan even with the original endings. 

Sucked to kill the Geth (though it was less certain in the original ending), but ultimately freeing the galaxy from Reaper influence is what my Shep wanted to do.

Plus throughout the whole game shep and TIM argue over control and destroy, would be silly for shepard who all game wants to destroy them to suddenly change his mind because an AI said something lol.

[KingZayd]

Rhayak wrote...

M25105 wrote...

The war can only end when Reapers have all been killed. You can't forgive the monstrous act they've done. They need to die. End of story. Otherwise everyone who likes Synthesis have 0 sense of justice and yes you guys do advocate that it's better to be turned into a green drone like freak than to stand up and spit the Reapers in their face.

If Reapers stop fighting and start rebuilding cities for free, you don't keep firing at them unless you're a moron or the trigger is stuck.

Reapers harvested the galaxy for millions of years? Now they will spend millions more helping it develop. 

That is justice. Destruction only creates a galaxy-wide third world without relays or citadel, with Krogan cannibalizing everyone stuck in Sol.

If they stopped fighting first, then I would consider not blowing them up.

[NM_Che56]

I see your point about the Reapers wanting synthesis.But the goal is to stop chaos. It's a hell of a lot better than turning into reaper goo, but I still don't like the idea of synthesis. It feels to Island of Dr. Moreau for my tastes.

[KingZayd]

Rhayak wrote...


I said it before: the Zhatil are only one episode. Wonderful and stuff, but not enough to veer the galaxy away from the inevitable outcome that Reapers were made to prevent.

Still more "episodes" than we have for Synthetics wiping out Organics, without the Reapers initiating it. If this outcome is "inevitable", why is there so little to support it?

[3DandBeyond]

Crysis I wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

You seem to be the first BioWare employee who remotely likes Destroy, Allan. It's a nice change of pace.

I was a fan even with the original endings. 

Sucked to kill the Geth (though it was less certain in the original ending), but ultimately freeing the galaxy from Reaper influence is what my Shep wanted to do.

Plus throughout the whole game shep and TIM argue over control and destroy, would be silly for shepard who all game wants to destroy them to suddenly change his mind because an AI said something lol.

There is also new dialogue that I never saw before between Hackett and
Shepard if you say you are not ready for the Cronos Mission and then go
back and talk to Hackett.  He orders Shepard to kill TIM and basically
orders Shepard to destroy the reapers.  But the writers still couldn't
seemingly fully support this.  The player never gets to say goodbye to a
fully alive and reaper free Shepard face to face.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:26 .

[artificial-ignorance]

synthesis melds organics and synthetics. aren't husks an example of this combo?
wait... does this mean... (sarcastic )... everyone in the galaxy are now HUSKS!!! BUM BUM BUMMMMMM

[3DandBeyond]

artificial-ignorance wrote...

synthesis melds organics and synthetics. aren't husks an example of this combo?
wait... does this mean... (sarcastic )... everyone in the galaxy are now HUSKS!!! BUM BUM BUMMMMMM

With green eyes, soooo cooool.

[Wayning_Star]

Nah, the reapership don't "want" anything, they're programming is simple, recycle. They're not too delicate about it either, nor are they "evil", that's a humanisic version of association to un-understandable variables, mostly unthinkable.  Now the so called catalyst(magabrat child avatar,who could be seen as anything/anyone to observers) could possibley 'want stuff' but not able to stray from it's core programming much, until the crucible was introduced. (Unlike the geth, who are idealistic, open hiveminded,free thinkers, compared to reapers, their power is their prison, so to speak, nothing or no one are able to reach them there..but that's another whole story.)Then he wanted Sheppard(or anyone of you who could/would) to introduce changes the Protheans provided via the crucible update codes. So it's more about what the original builders of the reaper bots, via the megabrat reaperkid who is "one" with the reaperships, but is the control program for their, for lack of a better term, prime directive. Organics are the makers AND the mess, the reapers mop it up every so many many many many years when we're ripe for the pickings, that is, reach the tech level high enough to create sentient non organic life. The only way to stop the cycle is to destroy ourselves or change the game. Apparently...inadertantly, we are the reapers..

[alienatedflea]

The Angry One wrote...

Becoming a God is an arrogant choice that leaves the galaxy open to your whim.
Synthesis is total capitulation.
I do not support destroy, as it murders our allies for no good reason, but at least it does what were were meant to do for 3 games - rid the galaxy of the Reaper abominations forever.

lol become god...really? you do realise that the WHOLE galaxy probably knows what the crucible does after the fact...if you dont want shepard "god" then build another crucible and pick another choice...

synthesis is for the best of both worlds...yet somehow people like you and many many others dont think thats a good idea...

Control, you are either the galaxy's protector or its new dictator depending on your path (Paragon or Renegade)...

Destroy is something that an extremist would find acceptable...it really goes well with "no cost too great" motiff

[Heeden]

[quote]The Angry One wrote...

Everything in the narrative supports me. NOTHING supports the Catalyst.[/quote]

That is by far the most hilarious thing you've written, bravo :-)

[quote]Then how the hell was the cycle "the only solution"?
Either it's right because it's explored every option, or it's not. You've basically just admitted that it's wrong due to being inflexible.[/quote]

The Crucible created new possibilities, Shepard altered the variables, his standing there is proof that organics have hope, new solutions to the problem have been created but only Shepards actions can decide which one is implemented.

Or you can get mad at the universe for being unfair and cry in a corner whilst everything you've known and everyone you love is destroyed.
[/quote]

[covertdrizzt]

@The Angry One I agree. Synthesis is what Saren was talking about at the end of ME. Synthesis is a reaper idea and goal. I guess some people think its ok to side with the reapers though. I just wonder how they keep from becoming idoctrinated husks.

[Heeden]

covertdrizzt wrote...

@The Angry One I agree. Synthesis is what Saren was talking about at the end of ME. Synthesis is a reaper idea and goal. I guess some people think its ok to side with the reapers though. I just wonder how they keep from becoming idoctrinated husks.

We already have a word for what happened to Saren - Indoctrination. If the goal of the Reapers was to rule over an indoctrinated society they could have easilly achieved it after any of their cycles. Indoctrination has more in common with the Control ending, only it is Shepard affecting the Reapers, not vice-versa.

[Ticonderoga117]

Heeden wrote...
The Crucible created new possibilities, Shepard altered the variables, his standing there is proof that organics have hope, new solutions to the problem have been created but only Shepards actions can decide which one is implemented.

How? Just because you built the galaxy's biggest battery and because the Catalyst brought Shepard up for a talk means suddenly the plan that has been going on for millions of years can now change? This is pants-on-head retarded. GlowBoy can spout all of this he wants, but he is crazy so I don't think he knows what he's talking about when it comes to this.

Or you can get mad at the universe for being unfair and cry in a corner whilst everything you've known and everyone you love is destroyed.

No, get mad at a genocidal AI and then you have an even better solution and to take his Reapers and fly them into a far away star.

[Heeden]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Heeden wrote...
The Crucible created new possibilities, Shepard altered the variables, his standing there is proof that organics have hope, new solutions to the problem have been created but only Shepards actions can decide which one is implemented.

How? Just because you built the galaxy's biggest battery and because the Catalyst brought Shepard up for a talk means suddenly the plan that has been going on for millions of years can now change? This is pants-on-head retarded. GlowBoy can spout all of this he wants, but he is crazy so I don't think he knows what he's talking about when it comes to this.

Yet it all turns out to be true, the choices do what he says and the epilogues show new ways of the galaxy advancing beyond that point. You call it crazy and pants-on-head retarded, but it turns out to be true so perhaps the problem is how you are perceiving it.

Or you can get mad at the universe for being unfair and cry in a corner whilst everything you've known and everyone you love is destroyed.

No, get mad at a genocidal AI and then you have an even better solution and to take his Reapers and fly them into a far away star.

I don't think it is 100% certain that taking Control will allow you to do that, whilst you may grasp the electrodes with the intention of making the Reapers self-destruct it isn't exactly Shepard who ends up in charge and the change of perspective may cause a reconsideration, or instincts for self-preservation may force a change of opinion.

Besides the epilogues show the Reapers do stick around as Custodians, so you would have to head-canon that away.

[covertdrizzt]

Heeden wrote...

covertdrizzt wrote...

@The Angry One I agree. Synthesis is what Saren was talking about at the end of ME. Synthesis is a reaper idea and goal. I guess some people think its ok to side with the reapers though. I just wonder how they keep from becoming idoctrinated husks.

We already have a word for what happened to Saren - Indoctrination. If the goal of the Reapers was to rule over an indoctrinated society they could have easilly achieved it after any of their cycles. Indoctrination has more in common with the Control ending, only it is Shepard affecting the Reapers, not vice-versa.

Yes Indoctrinated Saren was talking about synthesis at the end of ME.  How does everyone keep from being indoctrinated by the reapers in synthesis?  Does synthesis give everyone indoctrination shields along with glowing eyes?

[Ticonderoga117]

Heeden wrote...
Yet it all turns out to be true, the choices do what he says and the epilogues show new ways of the galaxy advancing beyond that point. You call it crazy and pants-on-head retarded, but it turns out to be true so perhaps the problem is how you are perceiving it.

Not the choices, the reasoning for how Shepard and the Cruicible suddenly change things.
Just because you made a battery? The Reapers could've built that, and done it better.
Just because Shepard made it to the choices spot? The Catalyst brought him there, he could've picked anyone.

Those are stupid reasons why "Lol, my solution doesn't work anymore."

I don't think it is 100% certain that taking Control will allow you to do that, whilst you may grasp the electrodes with the intention of making the Reapers self-destruct it isn't exactly Shepard who ends up in charge and the change of perspective may cause a reconsideration, or instincts for self-preservation may force a change of opinion.

Besides the epilogues show the Reapers do stick around as Custodians, so you would have to head-canon that away.

No, what I meant was, Shepard tell the Catalyst, who controls the Reapers, to make them fly into the sun without Shepard needing to do anything he will regret. IE, grabbing electrodes and turing to ash.

The Reapers are the problem.
That is a simple solution.