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Synthesis is what the Reapers want


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#1051
Heeden

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covertdrizzt wrote...

Yes Indoctrinated Saren was talking about synthesis at the end of ME.  How does everyone keep from being indoctrinated by the reapers in synthesis?  Does synthesis give everyone indoctrination shields along with glowing eyes?


Saren wanted to prove to the Reapers that organics could be useful to them, he advocated subservience in exchange for survival - a futile idea because for the most part organics would not accept that solution and synthetics would not have a use for us anyway beyond tools to be used for the harvest.

Synthesis changes the playing-field so we can advance as partners, not with one form of life dominating the other. Indoctrination is a weapon in the Reapers arsenal, we don't need shields against it because we are no longer in conflict so defense against hostility becomes irrelevant.

There's the added point that with gaining a new appreciation for organic life the Reapers will find mind-control to be as distasteful as most organics do.

#1052
Heeden

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...


Not the choices, the reasoning for how Shepard and the Cruicible suddenly change things.
Just because you made a battery? The Reapers could've built that, and done it better.
Just because Shepard made it to the choices spot? The Catalyst brought him there, he could've picked anyone.


Having Reapers build the battery would have proven nothing, the fact that organics managed to keep the idea of the Crucible throughout all those cycles and actuall build it changes the Catalysts data on them - he even says "Clearly organics are more resourceful than we thought."

You're right, he could have picked anyone, but Shepard is the galaxy's go-to guy for this kind of emergency and the "Avatar of this cycle" so he was the one allowed on the Citadel (along with Anderson and TIM, perhaps they were all considered likely candidates).

No, what I meant was, Shepard tell the Catalyst, who controls the Reapers, to make them fly into the sun without Shepard needing to do anything he will regret. IE, grabbing electrodes and turing to ash.

The Reapers are the problem.
That is a simple solution.


The Reapers aren't under direct command of the Catalyst, they are controlled by their programming at construction, they fulfill the purpose they are built for but do so as independent beings, working together. To get them to do something different you need to change their programming, and apparently that is achieved by a high energy wave emitted from the Citadel.

#1053
KingZayd

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Heeden wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...


Not the choices, the reasoning for how Shepard and the Cruicible suddenly change things.
Just because you made a battery? The Reapers could've built that, and done it better.
Just because Shepard made it to the choices spot? The Catalyst brought him there, he could've picked anyone.


Having Reapers build the battery would have proven nothing, the fact that organics managed to keep the idea of the Crucible throughout all those cycles and actuall build it changes the Catalysts data on them - he even says "Clearly organics are more resourceful than we thought."

You're right, he could have picked anyone, but Shepard is the galaxy's go-to guy for this kind of emergency and the "Avatar of this cycle" so he was the one allowed on the Citadel (along with Anderson and TIM, perhaps they were all considered likely candidates).

No, what I meant was, Shepard tell the Catalyst, who controls the Reapers, to make them fly into the sun without Shepard needing to do anything he will regret. IE, grabbing electrodes and turing to ash.

The Reapers are the problem.
That is a simple solution.


The Reapers aren't under direct command of the Catalyst, they are controlled by their programming at construction, they fulfill the purpose they are built for but do so as independent beings, working together. To get them to do something different you need to change their programming, and apparently that is achieved by a high energy wave emitted from the Citadel.



Shepard being there suddenly means all organics are now ready for synthesis? how?

Shepard was "allowed" on the Citadel now? So why was he shot at by Harbinger? Why did the husks try and stop him? Why was TIM any more a candidate than the others? Why have one of the candidates (that the Starchild admits is controlled), try to kill the others?

Also: "I control the Reapers", not "I wrote the program that dictates the Reapers actions, but I don't actually have any control on what they do".

Modifié par KingZayd, 06 juillet 2012 - 08:13 .


#1054
Ticonderoga117

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Heeden wrote...
Having Reapers build the battery would have proven nothing, the fact that organics managed to keep the idea of the Crucible throughout all those cycles and actuall build it changes the Catalysts data on them - he even says "Clearly organics are more resourceful than we thought."


The mere idea that those plans managed to get passed down at all is, ugh, brain hurting. Once? Sure. Hundreds of cycles? No! And it's still just a big battery, it means nothing except organics will build anything that has the label "superweapon".

You're right, he could have picked anyone, but Shepard is the galaxy's go-to guy for this kind of emergency and the "Avatar of this cycle" so he was the one allowed on the Citadel (along with Anderson and TIM, perhaps they were all considered likely candidates).


Shepard, to GlowBoy, is just another organic. It was completely random. Anyone else would've been fine.

The Reapers aren't under direct command of the Catalyst, they are controlled by their programming at construction, they fulfill the purpose they are built for but do so as independent beings, working together. To get them to do something different you need to change their programming, and apparently that is achieved by a high energy wave emitted from the Citadel.


Yes they are. "I control them. I give them purpose."
GlowBoy holds the controller and Shepard didn't just think to use that charm.intimidate. At all.

#1055
KingZayd

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alienatedflea wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Becoming a God is an arrogant choice that leaves the galaxy open to your whim.
Synthesis is total capitulation.
I do not support destroy, as it murders our allies for no good reason, but at least it does what were were meant to do for 3 games - rid the galaxy of the Reaper abominations forever.

lol become god...really? you do realise that the WHOLE galaxy probably knows what the crucible does after the fact...if you dont want shepard "god" then build another crucible and pick another choice...

synthesis is for the best of both worlds...yet somehow people like you and many many others dont think thats a good idea...

Control, you are either the galaxy's protector or its new dictator depending on your path (Paragon or Renegade)...

Destroy is something that an extremist would find acceptable...it really goes well with "no cost too great" motiff


Anyone wanting to overthrow Lord Protector Shepard is going to need not only another Crucible, but his cooperation. Also, think of all the things he was capable of doing with just a human body. With the Reapers and husks under his command, he's unstoppable.

#1056
Heeden

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KingZayd wrote...

Shepard being there suddenly means all organics are now ready for synthesis? how?


Because of who Shepard is, what he represents, what his actions in the galaxy have achieved; all of these things indicate that organics in our cycle are capable of integrating with technology and treating synthetics as living beings.

Shepard was "allowed" on the Citadel now? So why was he shot at by Harbinger? Why did the husks try and stop him? Why was TIM any more a candidate than the others? Why have one of the candidates (that the Starchild admits is controlled), try to kill the others?


If Shep had been shot at by Harbinger he would have been dead. Marauder Shields tried to stop him because he was jealous of all the attention Shep got, by getting past TIM Shep showed that his will was strong enough to overcome his indoctrination powers.

Also: "I control the Reapers", not "I wrote the program that dictates the Reapers actions, but I don't actually have any control on what they do".


But the Reapers are independent, the only way to control an independent, thinking machine is to set the rules it must obey. Think EDI, how she was an independent sentient machine but still had shackles that meant she had to behave in certain ways.

#1057
Heeden

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

The mere idea that those plans managed to get passed down at all is, ugh, brain hurting. Once? Sure. Hundreds of cycles? No! And it's still just a big battery, it means nothing except organics will build anything that has the label "superweapon".


It's called evolution, the Catalyst is a meme, a piece of information that affects the development of societies the same way genes affect the development of organisms.

Shepard, to GlowBoy, is just another organic. It was completely random. Anyone else would've been fine.


The Reapers thought there was something about Shepard that warrented giving him special attention. In fact everyone in ME seems to think Shepard is pretty special right from the beginning.

#1058
Ticonderoga117

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Heeden wrote...
But the Reapers are independent, the only way to control an independent, thinking machine is to set the rules it must obey. Think EDI, how she was an independent sentient machine but still had shackles that meant she had to behave in certain ways.


Hahahahaha, not any more.
"I control them."
Pretty self-explanatory.

#1059
Ticonderoga117

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Heeden wrote...
It's called evolution, the Catalyst is a meme, a piece of information that affects the development of societies the same way genes affect the development of organisms.


No, the Catalyst is a genocidal AI that halts evolution.
Besides, you can't force evolution and have it turn out to end well.

#1060
MegaSovereign

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The Catalyst is programmed to stop tech singularity from happening. Synthetics will inevitably surpass
organics and when/if conflict arrives the result will be chaos.

It's content with synthesis because it means that organics are "perfected" since they are integrated fully with technology. They won't be eatin' up by the cosmic force that is evolution.

This is the Catalyst's argument. But I don't believe it because we've proven 2-3 times in the game that synthetics can co-operate with organics to secure a better future. And the Catalyst also contradicted himself when he said we'd inevitably reach synthesis, despite him saying that tech singularity was inevitable minutes ago.

#1061
Heeden

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Heeden wrote...
But the Reapers are independent, the only way to control an independent, thinking machine is to set the rules it must obey. Think EDI, how she was an independent sentient machine but still had shackles that meant she had to behave in certain ways.


Hahahahaha, not any more.
"I control them."
Pretty self-explanatory.


EDI wasn't controlled directly by anyone, she was an independent thinking machine.
EDI had shackles that controlled her behaviour.
So she was both independent and controlled.

#1062
Heeden

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

No, the Catalyst is a genocidal AI that halts evolution.
Besides, you can't force evolution and have it turn out to end well.


Yes it is, but evolution happened anyway because the universe is a big and complicated place. Evolution wasn't forced, it just happened, and when it had got to a point where it broke the Catalyst's solution a new solution was needed.

#1063
Heeden

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MegaSovereign wrote...

This is the Catalyst's argument. But I don't believe it because we've proven 2-3 times in the game that synthetics can co-operate with organics to secure a better future. And the Catalyst also contradicted himself when he said we'd inevitably reach synthesis, despite him saying that tech singularity was inevitable minutes ago.


Yes, the influence of Shepard allows synthetics and organics to cooperate and get along. Shepard shows how organic life has evolved beyond what the Catalyst's solution allows, so new solutions are needed.

The Catalyst says that now we know it is possible Synthesis is inevitable.

#1064
saracen16

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MegaSovereign wrote...

The Catalyst is programmed to stop tech singularity from happening. Synthetics will inevitably surpass
organics and when/if conflict arrives the result will be chaos.

It's content with synthesis because it means that organics are "perfected" since they are integrated fully with technology. They won't be eatin' up by the cosmic force that is evolution.

This is the Catalyst's argument. But I don't believe it because we've proven 2-3 times in the game that synthetics can co-operate with organics to secure a better future. And the Catalyst also contradicted himself when he said we'd inevitably reach synthesis, despite him saying that tech singularity was inevitable minutes ago.


Tech singularity and synthesis are not mutually inclusive concepts.

#1065
KingZayd

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Heeden wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Shepard being there suddenly means all organics are now ready for synthesis? how?


Because of who Shepard is, what he represents, what his actions in the galaxy have achieved; all of these things indicate that organics in our cycle are capable of integrating with technology and treating synthetics as living beings.

Shepard was "allowed" on the Citadel now? So why was he shot at by Harbinger? Why did the husks try and stop him? Why was TIM any more a candidate than the others? Why have one of the candidates (that the Starchild admits is controlled), try to kill the others?


If Shep had been shot at by Harbinger he would have been dead. Marauder Shields tried to stop him because he was jealous of all the attention Shep got, by getting past TIM Shep showed that his will was strong enough to overcome his indoctrination powers.

Also: "I control the Reapers", not "I wrote the program that dictates the Reapers actions, but I don't actually have any control on what they do".


But the Reapers are independent, the only way to control an independent, thinking machine is to set the rules it must obey. Think EDI, how she was an independent sentient machine but still had shackles that meant she had to behave in certain ways.


how does one guy show that all organics are ready? What does Shepard represent? Even if Shepard kills the Geth?

So what was Harby shooting at when Shepard got knocked out? Was Harbinger saying "That was a joke"? Also, what does being able to overcome TIM's weird indoctrination have to do with organics being ready for Synthesis?

If he wrote the program, that means they're following the program, but he's not controlling them. Because he is unable to dictate their actions. That would mean that when he says he controls the Reapers, he's fibbing.

Modifié par KingZayd, 07 juillet 2012 - 12:30 .


#1066
Sousabird

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It's what the reapers want, the question is, do you want it too? I don't.

#1067
Dharvy

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KingZayd wrote...

how does one guy show that all organics are ready? What does Shepard represent? Even if Shepard kills the Geth?

So what was Harby shooting at when Shepard got knocked out? Was Harbinger saying "That was a joke"? Also, what does being able to overcome TIM's weird indoctrination have to do with organics being ready for Synthesis?

If he wrote the program, that means they're following the program, but he's not controlling them. Because he is unable to dictate their actions. That would mean that when he says he controls the Reapers, he's fibbing.

Just adding...

Shepard getting shot at by Harbinger? I don't think Shepard was supposed to make it. It's more like the fact that he did make it, against all odds, that caused some variables to change and thus a different solution to be available/needed. Its like you have a system/solution that you deem foolproof and someone breaks it, now you must rethink your system/solution and come up with something that would work better for you and maybe everyone else also.

#1068
Argetfalcon

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

You seem to be the first BioWare employee who remotely likes Destroy, Allan. It's a nice change of pace.



I was a fan even with the original endings.  :)

Sucked to kill the Geth (though it was less certain in the original ending), but ultimately freeing the galaxy from Reaper influence is what my Shep wanted to do.
:police:


Glad to here someone at Bioware say it. It's a popular opinion please pass it over to the Devs

#1069
KingZayd

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Dharvy wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

how does one guy show that all organics are ready? What does Shepard represent? Even if Shepard kills the Geth?

So what was Harby shooting at when Shepard got knocked out? Was Harbinger saying "That was a joke"? Also, what does being able to overcome TIM's weird indoctrination have to do with organics being ready for Synthesis?

If he wrote the program, that means they're following the program, but he's not controlling them. Because he is unable to dictate their actions. That would mean that when he says he controls the Reapers, he's fibbing.

Just adding...

Shepard getting shot at by Harbinger? I don't think Shepard was supposed to make it. It's more like the fact that he did make it, against all odds, that caused some variables to change and thus a different solution to be available/needed. Its like you have a system/solution that you deem foolproof and someone breaks it, now you must rethink your system/solution and come up with something that would work better for you and maybe everyone else also.


Well it's luck isn't it? It's not like Shepard was moving especially quickly. Harby missed, (or deliberately didn't get a clean hit according to some people.. which I admit would be interesting if say.. Harby was indoctrinated and was fighting that control). Point is, Shepard can't really take credit for having survived that blast.

If Shepard surviving was good enough the husks and the TIM thing would be pointless.

Also the fact that he didn't actually make it, and passed out after opening the arms shows that no new solution was needed.

#1070
Ticonderoga117

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Heeden wrote...
EDI wasn't controlled directly by anyone, she was an independent thinking machine.
EDI had shackles that controlled her behaviour.
So she was both independent and controlled.


True, but the same doesn't apply to the Reapers anymore.
GlowBoy says "I control them."
He doesn't say "I direct them." or "I advise them."
I. Control. Them.

The only thing left is that GlowBoy doesn't actually micromanage them. However, he still rules supreme over them.
He gives an order to jump, they ask how high, etc etc.

#1071
Sifr

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What worries me is since the Catalyst still exists in Synthesis, when the Reapers finish rebuilding everything, you just know at some point, people will be going about with their normal everyday lives when-

Assuming Direct Control

Because it's not like the Reapers like to lure people into a false sense of security with shiny new technology to play with, the ability to create a Utopian civilisation,  progressing along lines that they desire, before they come to tear it down again?!

But hey, at least they aren't now linked into every single being in the universe, right?!

Oh wait...

:whistle:

Modifié par Sifr1449, 07 juillet 2012 - 02:46 .


#1072
ff-leishi01

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I will admit, I struggled between Synthesis and Destroy when the EC came out, I didn't want EDI and the Geth to be destroyed :( But I just didn't like the idea of the Reapers existing, in any way. So destroy is the option I always pick, before and after the EC. There is sacrifice in each ending. And I chose to sacrifice synthetic life...for the time being. x

#1073
3DandBeyond

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alienatedflea wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Becoming a God is an arrogant choice that leaves the galaxy open to your whim.
Synthesis is total capitulation.
I do not support destroy, as it murders our allies for no good reason, but at least it does what were were meant to do for 3 games - rid the galaxy of the Reaper abominations forever.

lol become god...really? you do realise that the WHOLE galaxy probably knows what the crucible does after the fact...if you dont want shepard "god" then build another crucible and pick another choice...

synthesis is for the best of both worlds...yet somehow people like you and many many others dont think thats a good idea...

Control, you are either the galaxy's protector or its new dictator depending on your path (Paragon or Renegade)...

Destroy is something that an extremist would find acceptable...it really goes well with "no cost too great" motiff


Synthesis is abhorrent.  It in no way is something that natural evolution would lead to-totally a ridiculous statement on the catalyst's part.  It also is the best of no world.  It is being forced on people without their knowledge or consent.  Mordin says some things about it in ME2 when describing the Collectors but elaborates on it as a process that creates cultural stagnation as well as advancement beyond what one is culturally ready for-something he equates with the advancement of the Krogans before their time.

The kid sees synthesis as perfection.  Consider that for a moment.  He thinks people want tech inside them so they can achieve perfection.  First of all, perfection is not something most rational people believe exists.  Secondly, tech isn't something universally thought of as a way to become perfect if it existed.  In ME itself there were people that didn't even want any tech implants so now it's ok to force this on them?  No, it isn't.

Creativity is stifled without adversity.  Creativity and that which makes the soul (not talking religion here) soar cannot exist in any appreciable way with no real need for it.  Think about the people throughout history that have been the greatest creative minds-say a Van Gogh, Beethoven, and the like.  What you often will find is that creativity is born out of struggle.  The basis for rock music is early African American music that was born in the fields of plantations as slaves sang to work through or forget their troubles.  Great comedians often had sad childhoods or something that they draw upon that they can find humor in now.  Synthesis removes adversity and so stifles the growth of the spirit.  It also is a childish way to solve a conflict that need not exist.  It says people are unable to ever solve problems themselves so they must be artificially augmented to make it happen.  Ridiculous.  Synthesis is what the kid says is the best solution, but he couldn't even accomplish what he was meant to do-create a balance between organics and synthetics.  His solution was to have people sucked up every 50k years and to turn his creators into a reaper. 

Control is never a paragon choice.  It was always something paragon Shepard spoke out against regarding anything-whether it was in letting Grunt decide for himself or disagreeing with TIM-you got paragon points for disliking any kind of control throughout the games.  And it creates a horrible sight for people to have to live with-people that just want the reapers "dead".  The reapers have people goo in them-no one wants a reaper running around that may have their family as goo inside of it.  And I have almost a full Paragon Shepard and that control ending is ominous and not at all cheery.  Shepard also says some very un-paragon things that my Shepard would not say, so it obviously changes him/her.  Control further says that people can't do things for themselves and they need the reapers to create everything once again. 

Destroy is the only case where people can stand on their own and advance using their own creativity and then create their own future.  Listen to how Hackett describes it-they learned to work together and will rebuild and have a better future.  Well, some will.  In a real sadistic move the writers wanted to make this ending not seem canon so they decided to make it appear to be the most selfish with genocide.  Killing EDI and the geth destroys the best examples of why the star kid is wrong and why they other 2 choices are wrong.  EDI and the geth worked to self-determine, something denied with synthesis and control, so of course they had to die in the only ending that allows for self-determination and self-reliance.

And no, everyone will not know what the crucible does.  Where is that even implied?  In Control, Shepard can't communicate with people anymore so s/he can't tell them.  And in synthesis it doesn't say everyone will have a hive mind and know what the catalyst knows.  In fact, the choices themselves don't exist in the crucible-the kid says it's a big energy source.  The choice consoles are on the citadel, but it isn't like they were labeled as to what they were and they may even be destroyed or non-functional after they've been used.

Of course this last bit is why the whole freaking thing makes no sense.

#1074
wantedman dan

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Heeden wrote...

Synthesis changes the playing-field so we can advance as partners, not with one form of life dominating the other.


That's a well-intentioned but misguided argument. Life is shown to be able to accomplish this WITHOUT forcefully changing everything.

#1075
AgentStark

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"He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil."

Casey Hudson, you magnificent b******, I read your book!

But I agree. If you keep adding machine to the man, it takes away from the man. Kind of like the Borg from Star Trek. They give people a reason to reject having implants. Technology should be a tool we utilize when the work is simply too difficult for us to handle normally. You don't use a sledgehammer to put a picture frame nail in the wall.