1081 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Galbrant wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

And now you are debating... Just as planned...

Oh.... God  NO! NO!

*kills self with a M-3 Predator*

Also seen in numerous scenes in Mass Effect 2 and 3.... even though your Shepard obviously doesn't have it equipped. 

Particularly painful when my Shep has the Paladin instead.

Who in their right mind would use the Predator over the Paladin? 

[CrutchCricket]

Caenis wrote...

True. Synthesis does have some issues, a lot of those issues are a clashing of values. The number one issue I see a lot is:

-Taking away Freedom, the Freedom too choose.

This is something I see argued again and again. Another argument I saw that was pretty good, was that it is also commiting 'genocide' not just of the human race but of all races in the galaxy.

Well that's on the moral side of things. Another problem it goes against diversity, instead preaching sameness. Us vs them, it's inevitable. But wait, let's scrap us and them and fuse together. No more conflict! Never mind that we lose what made us "us" and them "them". Also it's very Hegelian and **** Hegel but that's just a personal quirk.
On the logical side of things you have all the debate about biology and physics and how what synthesis says it does is flat out impossible or nonsensical.

So yeah, a lot to get past just to "feel good".

Control, I like control. But a lot of people don't like that because you become a Reaper, "Indoctrinated" and there are some issues with that too, like the idea that power corrupts, and some have argued enforcing your 'law' onto people.

Check out the link in my sig for my response to these things.

I feel like the choices we received are all fundamentally wronged. Bioware complicated SO MUCH by making the Reapers out to be some people who were just 'trying to save humans from themselves', they complicated everything more than it needed to be by making this a war between 'organics vs. sentient robots'. They put us into this position where we had to make sacrifices that were just fundamentally stupid. They gave us a deux ex machina, and then attempted to pit us against each other...when at the end of the day there is no wrong ending and all the endings are just plain stupid.

What should have happened, is the Reapers should have had some big crazy boss, who would should have been able to kill and save the day without killing everybody or having to choose and impose or ideas onto humanity because each choice we impose something. Literally we are put in a room and told to choose 3 fates for humanity, 1. Control by a Dictator, 2. Make them all Part Robot Part Organic, or 3. Destroy all Technology and 'emerging' Sentient beings.

THAT was not cool. And now here we are arguing which was the lesser of all 3 evils ! 

Well I believe the core ending paths are not fundamentally flawed at all (yes even synthesis). But their implementation is faulty. Destroy and control at least make some sense, even as they are and they have precedent in the series. But synthesis is far too complex an idea to introduce in teh last 5 min. And just green-waving the entire galaxy is the worst way you could do it. This should've been saved for another game.

And yeah the whole synthetic-organic crap was bull**** to begin with. The Reapers did not need some grand altruistic motive, they were supposed to be incomprehensible.

But it is what it is. Debate will continue. All you can do is hope it's on the issues and it doesn't devolve into personal attacks. Oh wait, it's the internet...

[The Angry One]

Ryzaki wrote...

Galbrant wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

And now you are debating... Just as planned...

Oh.... God  NO! NO!

*kills self with a M-3 Predator*

Also seen in numerous scenes in Mass Effect 2 and 3.... even though your Shepard obviously doesn't have it equipped. 

Particularly painful when my Shep has the Paladin instead.

Who in their right mind would use the Predator over the Paladin? 

The same kind of person who'd use an Avenger rifle even when they can't use rifles.

[Direbunny]

Harbinger's favorite color?

Green? 

[Torrible]

zambot wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Gibberish. Something cannot be 'synthetic' at an atomic level.

Also gibberish.

http://nanotechnology.com/ 

Apparently it can. 

Gibberish.   Sunshine and rainbows!

You are speaking to somebody who studies this field.

A molecular motor does not make a 'synthetic' of the order of which we are describing here. Nor does the addition of such complexes count as 'adding synthetic molecules'. 

In fact, can you define what a 'synthetic molecule' actually IS in terms of Mass Effect/Synthesis?

There is no such thing as 'synthetic DNA' other than DNA which has been man-made. This talk of 'adding to DNA' makes no sense whatsoever.

lol.  So true.  I'm a computer engineer, and all the imagery of people walking around with circuit boards embeded in their faces was so damn funny.  I'm pretty sure that was not the writers' intended reaction.

Funny to think about perhaps, but definitely possible in the MEU. Just maybe not the crude circuit boards you are thinking of.  Maybe technology that is so advanced that near instantaneous cell cloning (into something synthetic) is possible. 

Modifié par Torrible, 05 juillet 2012 - 06:38 .

[PsyrenY]

The Angry One wrote...

She's also against life under the Reapers, and against forced transhumanism.

Synthesis is not "life UNDER the Reapers" no matter how often you parrot it that way.
Not denying that it's space magic, I simply don't care. (Arthur C. Clarke.)
Not denying that it's forced either, but I see it as superior enough to the alternatives to overlook an ethical wrinkle.

The Angry One wrote... 
Very relevant. The Geth do not want to compromise with the Reapers. Synthesis is, at the very best, compromise.

That's because every single other instance of "compromise with the Reapers" results in submission. Synthesis cannot be compared that way because it's the only one that does not.

The Angry One wrote... 
Why would that be the plan?

Because harmony was the goal of Starkid's creators. He tells you this himself. He even tells you that it was attempted before, and that the Crucible has been refined since the original design.

[Little Princess Peach]

The Angry One wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

Synthesis is not understanding.. is bowing down to their wishes and fullfill their ideal solution... sure it would break the cycle... BECAUSE EVERYONE WOULD BE REAPERIZED!

Refusal leads to Reaperisation, Synthesis is different. Reaperisation has billions of organics interred in a synthetic life-form, Synthesis is so different I recommend you watch the video.

I recommend you read between the lines, and realise that synthesis remakes all life in the Reaper's image. A life form they can tolerate.

it's not about Tolerating, it's about control tahst why its so one sided, we bow to them and they hold all the cards on the galatic table the green ending is a waste of time unless people like seeing there friends and loved ones become mutated pupttes

[AngryFrozenWater]

Synthesis is submission forced by Shepard against the victims' will. The racial identities of the races are mutilated in an attempt to remove the differences between all of them and to enforce that, not only do the physical differences disappear, their minds have to change to make their co-existence work. Physical changes only would not be enough. So, and this seem to shock some who didn't listen to the brat, is to extract Shepard's "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is" and add those mental features to synthesis' physical alterations. Everyone is infected by it. Not only are they physically altered against their will, Shepard's "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is" also messed with their minds.

Child: Add your energy to the Crucible's. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic live into a new framework. A new... DNA.

Shepard: Explain how my energy can be added to the Crucible.

Child: Your organic energy, the essence of who you are and what you are, will be broken down and then dispersed.

And all because Shepard feels that this new state is an improvement. This elitist thought of creating a super race by eugenics that mutilates both physical and mental capabilities is the most racist solution one can dream up. After aeons of cyclical genocides and several failed synthesis attempts it appears that the human race has all the qualities that the brat requires. The brat mentions that synthesis cannot be forced, but that Shepard's race is ready.

Child: It is the ideal solution. Now that we know it is possible, It's inevitable we will reach synthesis.

Shepard: Why couldn't you do it sooner?

Child: We have tried... a similar solution in the past. But it has always failed.

Shepard: Why?

Child: Because the organics were not ready. It is not something that can be... forced. You are ready. And you may choose it.

It means that the cyclical genocides and failed synthesis attempts finally payed off. This is eugenics in its most horrific form. It coincides with the reapers primary function: harvesting advanced civilizations by a cyclical maniacal genocidal "ascension through destruction" reproduction method to keep them on top of the food chain. They squash organics to goo alive and pump it to their reaper reproduction facility. You can watch this horrific procedure in ME2 in detail, where you can see that happening to an entire human colony, and in the ME3 ending, just past Marauder Shields, you can see the bodies piled up, ready to be processed. Anderson reminds you of that.

Of course synthesis is the ideal solution the reapers were always looking for. And thus the reapers advertize it as the best of the 3 "solutions".

Child: It is the ideal solution. Now that we know it is possible, It's inevitable we will reach synthesis.

It is not only "ideal", it is even "inevitable". And all the above horrors are sold to you by the brat's main motivation: There is supposed to be an hypothetical "inevitable" synthetics threat, for which there is absolutely no proof, other than what this cyclical mass murderer tells you. As written before, the brat is able to lie.

First there the issue that the brat and the reapers cannot be held to the same standards as "we" have because they are more advanced. That's nonsense. If they were, as an example, a Type III Civilization they would have just ignored "us", just as "we" ignore ants. If they interfere with "us" then they will be judged from the perspective of the victims and not the other way around, because there is no room for the end justifies the means.

Then we have the issue of the brat being innocent, because it was just a machine performing its duty. That is not how AIs work. They are not VIs which simply execute a set of pre-programmed functions. AIs are smart and brat and the reapers are supposed to be the most advanced life forms in our galaxy. They are true AIs, and just as any Council race, are self-aware and capable of creative and independent thought. They learn and they adapt. Because of that they can and must be held responsible for their actions. And what's more they know exactly how the emotion and ethics of organics work.

They have a long history of betrayal (up to their own creators), intrigue (Saren, TIM, turning synthetics against organics), deceit (indoctrination and using a disguise as an innocent child when it committed the most atrocities of any being in our galaxy in aeons), enslavement (ascension), cyclical genocide (of countless races which they deemed worthless to build reapers from), scare tactics (by turning the dead bodies of the races into husks to fight against those same races), harvesting civilizations (by first sowing mass relays and technology to make sure that their future victims "will develop along the paths [they] desire"), eugenics (collectors, failed synthesis attempts), and last but not least lies (by using the hypothetical threat as a rationalization for their cyclical maniacal genocidal "ascension through destruction" reproduction method to keep them on top of the food chain). Much like a serial killer they show no empathy, nor remorse, even though they are perfectly able to use the concept of fear. The power of the brat and the boys systematically violates the right of self-determination by any means they can dream up.

That means the brat and the boys cannot be trusted, given the above, and when these tell me that there is some kind of hypothetical synthetics threat for which there is absolutely no in-game proof, then it would be irresponsible to trust them, when there is only one motive: the rationalization for their reproduction method. By surrendering to them, by violating the allies' rights of self-determination by mutilating their racial identities, which apparently also removes their free will to fuel the Disney-like utopian pipe dream, elitist Shepard just gives in to the wishes of the brat to perfect the reaper's race. You see, nobody actually wanted that, except for the brat and elitist Shepard. The rest of the galaxy just wanted the reapers' destruction or their defeat. Nobody, except perhaps Saren, asked for submission through synthesis.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 05 juillet 2012 - 06:50 .

[Grimwick]

Torrible wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Gibberish. Something cannot be 'synthetic' at an atomic level.

Also gibberish.

http://nanotechnology.com/ 

Apparently it can. 

Gibberish.   Sunshine and rainbows!

You are speaking to somebody who studies this field.

A molecular motor does not make a 'synthetic' of the order of which we are describing here. Nor does the addition of such complexes count as 'adding synthetic molecules'. 

In fact, can you define what a 'synthetic molecule' actually IS in terms of Mass Effect/Synthesis?

There is no such thing as 'synthetic DNA' other than DNA which has been man-made. This talk of 'adding to DNA' makes no sense whatsoever.

Shouldn't synthetic just mean something artificial, non-organic or manmade? What other condition is needed in your definition of synthetic? 

By the definition of the context it needs to be alive, like I said - in terms of Mass effect/synthesis'. Otherwise the word used would have been inorganic.

If 'man-made' or 'artificial' were the optimum words then it wouldn't make any sense from the start... 'Synthetic DNA' suddenly becomes 'DNA which isn't changed'.
And it's ridiculous to say you added 'synthetic atoms'. How is an atom synthetic?

[CrutchCricket]

Direbunny wrote...
Green? 

Yellow actually. It's the color of his eyes and also of Refusal.

Which means he gets to keep on Reaping. Peace is so much more boring, being controlled by Shepard would suck and obviously he doesn't want to get destroyed.

[wantedman dan]

Direbunny wrote...

Harbinger's favorite color?

Green? 

YELLOW, PUNY HUMAN.

[KotorEffect3]

Synthesis may have it's issues and is questionable but it does have the most interesting epilogue (acknowledging that it's epilogue is interesting doesn't mean I think it is the best choice).  I am a destroy guy myself but I will say this sythesis beats the crap out of refusal.  At least sythesis ends the nightmare of getting reaped.

[Grimwick]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Synthesis may have it's issues and is questionable but it does have the most interesting epilogue (acknowledging that it's epilogue is interesting doesn't mean I think it is the best choice).  I am a destroy guy myself but I will say this sythesis beats the crap out of refusal.  At least sythesis ends the nightmare of getting reaped.

By brainwashing people?

Personally, if you take away my free will and opinions... I'd rather be dead.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

 If I may add something,

A constant cycle that repeats itself in the Mass Effect series is the concept of technology affecting species : the Krogan being uplifted and how even Eve mentioned that technology ruined the Krogan, the Heretic Geth getting their future from the Reapers instead of the other Geth who want to build their own future. Synthesis is basically submitting to the Reapers and getting our future from the Reapers, not building our own future. We are basically doing the same thing the Heretic Geth did, which was submitt to the Reapers views and future, and we all know how that will turn out.

Modifié par Khajiit Jzargo, 05 juillet 2012 - 06:43 .

[The Angry One]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Synthesis is not "life UNDER the Reapers" no matter how often you parrot it that way.

Yes it is, no matter how hard you want to pretend it isn't. This has been the Reapers' plan all along.
Now they will be at the head of a galaxy of life remade in their image.

Not denying that it's space magic, I simply don't care. (Arthur C. Clarke.)
Not denying that it's forced either, but I see it as superior enough to the alternatives to overlook an ethical wrinkle.

Ethical wrinkle? Violating every single being in the galaxy, changing them forever, altering their bodies and minds because the Reapers tell you to is an "ethical wrinkle"?

That's because every single other instance of "compromise with the Reapers" results in submission. Synthesis cannot be compared that way because it's the only one that does not.

a) The Geth, or any other synthetic would not know or anticipate that it'd end in anything other than submission
 It does in fact result in submission whether you like it or not.

Because harmony was the goal of Starkid's creators. He tells you this himself. He even tells you that it was attempted before, and that the Crucible has been refined since the original design.

Peace was the goal of the Catalyst's creators. Not cybernetic violation.
The Catalyst and the Reapers tried synthesis before, nothing says the creators did. Also you're now assuming the creators designed the Crucible which, if true, just proves the whole thing is just a Reaper scheme from the beginning.

[KotorEffect3]

Grimwick wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Synthesis may have it's issues and is questionable but it does have the most interesting epilogue (acknowledging that it's epilogue is interesting doesn't mean I think it is the best choice).  I am a destroy guy myself but I will say this sythesis beats the crap out of refusal.  At least sythesis ends the nightmare of getting reaped.

By brainwashing people?

Personally, if you take away my free will and opinions... I'd rather be dead.

I don't see anywhere it shows synthesis brainwashing people.  It makes them partly synthetic but it doesn't show evidence of brainwashing them.  More hysterics from refusers

[wantedman dan]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

 More hysterics from refusers

More ad hominem.

[Caenis]

Stornskar wrote...

Caenis wrote...

I understand that you imposed genocide on a race of sentient beings. You didn't ask humanity what they wanted, if they were ok with that. You didn't ask the races if that was a sacrifice they wanted to make, you didn't ask Legion or Edi, you just assumed that it was better. You made a choice and imposed it.

I too made a choice and imposed it. I decided to be the "Catalyst" for change. Letting humans continue the cycle of violence just wasn't an option. Entering a cycle of peace, was an option.

Where you see Loss of Freedom, I see True Liberation.

Where you see True Liberation, I see "Loss", maybe not the 'loss of freedom', but the loss of life, and the continuing on a road that will repeat and never end.

It's only delusional because you don't agree.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not - are you saying that we would all be better off if the entire human race had an antenna implanted in their heads which received instructions from a "super hippie peace" AI which controlled our every action and made sure we never did mean stuff?

I am saying that there are valid arguments that people genuinely believe for it, and that the only reason they're considered wrong is because others don't agree. But I am also saying that at the end of the day all the choices are less than 3 evils, and that they can all be argued for and against, and I am also saying that it's our headcannon! Headcannon vs. headcannon, even if I did choose a list of values to follow and I do and have in my headcannon, trying to prove them wrong is stupid. Debating about why people are wrong for having beliefs and values that they have just because they contradict yours is silly, because you're no more right than I am. And yes...I do believe the points I made, but I exaggerated them slightly rather than sugar coating them, I made them sound like what your points sound to me, and I made them sound like what my points usually come across as others even when they use semantics.

[The Angry One]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I don't see anywhere it shows synthesis brainwashing people.  It makes them partly synthetic but it doesn't show evidence of brainwashing them.  More hysterics from refusers

Aside from happily standing around side by side with the giant monsters who murdered their loved ones.
I mean yeah, no animosity there. For sure.

Also you think it's just refusers who see synthesis for the twisted nightmare that it is rather than anyone with common sense?

Modifié par The Angry One, 05 juillet 2012 - 06:47 .

[Memnon]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Because harmony was the goal of Starkid's creators. He tells you this himself. He even tells you that it was attempted before, and that the Crucible has been refined since the original design.

He says Synthesis was tried before but it failed because "they were not ready." He then claims that we are now ready - personally, I would like to know what the threshold for "ready" is, because as it stands that is a huge cop-out of an explanation

I wonder what happened to the non-ready races of the galaxy. Did they all die a painful death because Synthesis failed? Another "oops, my bad, there goes another trillion or so organics" that we're supposed to forgive ?

Modifié par Stornskar, 05 juillet 2012 - 06:47 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Synthesis may have it's issues and is questionable but it does have the most interesting epilogue (acknowledging that it's epilogue is interesting doesn't mean I think it is the best choice).  I am a destroy guy myself but I will say this sythesis beats the crap out of refusal.  At least sythesis ends the nightmare of getting reaped.

By brainwashing people?

Personally, if you take away my free will and opinions... I'd rather be dead.

I don't see anywhere it shows synthesis brainwashing people.  It makes them partly synthetic but it doesn't show evidence of brainwashing them.  More hysterics from refusers

EDI clearly mentions that she will never want to co-exist with the Reapers and would rather die, but in the Synthesis epilogue, she seem very happy synthesis was choosen. Again, that thing was not Edi.

[grey_wind]

I don't think Synthesis was purposefully built in by the Crucible's original creators. There's some throwaway dialogue by EDI on the Normandy about how when enough energy is released, it can do things that bend the laws that govern reality.
Which is bullsh!t justification, but I think that's what the writers were aiming for with Synthesis.

Don't know if that makes it better or worse...

[Grimwick]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Synthesis may have it's issues and is questionable but it does have the most interesting epilogue (acknowledging that it's epilogue is interesting doesn't mean I think it is the best choice).  I am a destroy guy myself but I will say this sythesis beats the crap out of refusal.  At least sythesis ends the nightmare of getting reaped.

By brainwashing people?

Personally, if you take away my free will and opinions... I'd rather be dead.

I don't see anywhere it shows synthesis brainwashing people.  It makes them partly synthetic but it doesn't show evidence of brainwashing them.  More hysterics from refusers

1) I don't pick refuse. Again, don't generelise people... it's hilarious to others and foolish when you get it wrong.

2) I see evidence. how about the Catakyst admitting that synthesis 'forcefully changes people's perspectives'. that's what brainwashing does too... Don't forget the reaper killing-machines suddenly becoming accepted and friendly, and everyone suddenly dropping their animosity to others. I don't see any other way in which Wreav would be pacified frankly.

3) Don't also forget the fact that it is so far the most logical machination of synthesis. All other suggestions I have seen are gibberish as to how it works.

[RiouHotaru]

The Angry One wrote...

This is 100% fact.

You do realize you did this already in your "Refusal is the only sound option" and we (that is humes spork, myself as a few others) thrashed that fallacious argument to pieces.

Do you -really- want to start another one?

[KotorEffect3]

The Angry One wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

I don't see anywhere it shows synthesis brainwashing people.  It makes them partly synthetic but it doesn't show evidence of brainwashing them.  More hysterics from refusers

Aside from happily standing around side by side with the giant monsters who murdered their loved ones.
I mean yeah, no animosity there. For sure.

Also you think it's just refusers who see synthesis for the twisted nightmare that it is rather than anyone with common sense?

You need to pay attention,  did I say anything about lingering animosity or deny it?  No I did not.  All I said is that synthesis has no evidence of brainwashing.  That is all I said.  Also I said synthesis still has it's issues since I am a destroy guy myself.  What I did say is that synthesis beats the crap out of refusal, which it does.