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So, Thanix Missiles...


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#201
Funkdrspot

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Tritium315 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...



See, i'm not arguing the dominance of missles over cannons. I'm simply giving examples that

a) Thanix missles can exist and we currently employ similar tech in our current missles

B) Thanix missles can have benefits over cannons in certain circumstances and their benefits currently are in-line with a guerilla campaign that hackett is fighting


There are literally no circumstances where a missile is better. Line of sight means dick when you hit something 3000 km away in under a second with one method and have to wait minutes with the other.


We explained it to you already and all you can do is handwave it away b/c our answer isn't filled with enough angst for you.

Here let me copypasta:

What are you basing your opinion on? Just like The Angry One, you're
most likely angry about the ending and lashing out at anything and
everything Mass Effect.

1. Cannons require LOS. Missles do not

2.
Thanix cannons are not regular cannons. Meaning while they will
continue at the same speed, they will NOT continue at the same heat
level. Thus effectiveness is reduced to a certain range

3. The
Reapers have farther thanix cannon range than everyone else. By the time
you're in range to shoot Thanix cannons, so are they


4. The
nature of a missle is that it allows for more destruction in a shorter
timeframe. You could let off an entire battery of missles and jump to
FTL or you could stand around shooting your thanix cannon while in range
of a reaper that can destroy a dreadnaught in 1 hit.





Cliffnotes: Benefit of missle? Shooting while not being in range of something that can take you out in 1 hit.

Modifié par Funkdrspot, 06 juillet 2012 - 03:31 .


#202
Ticonderoga117

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^ The last battle cutscene still tells us a different story for #3 then what you're saying there.

#203
MegaSovereign

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I heard they can do a ****ton of damage, apparently.

#204
Tritium315

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Funkdrspot wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...



See, i'm not arguing the dominance of missles over cannons. I'm simply giving examples that

a) Thanix missles can exist and we currently employ similar tech in our current missles

B) Thanix missles can have benefits over cannons in certain circumstances and their benefits currently are in-line with a guerilla campaign that hackett is fighting


There are literally no circumstances where a missile is better. Line of sight means dick when you hit something 3000 km away in under a second with one method and have to wait minutes with the other.


We explained it to you already and all you can do is handwave it away b/c our answer isn't filled with enough angst for you.

Here let me copypasta:

What are you basing your opinion on? Just like The Angry One, you're
most likely angry about the ending and lashing out at anything and
everything Mass Effect.

1. Cannons require LOS. Missles do not

2.
Thanix cannons are not regular cannons. Meaning while they will
continue at the same speed, they will NOT continue at the same heat
level. Thus effectiveness is reduced to a certain range

3. The
Reapers have farther thanix cannon range than everyone else. By the time
you're in range to shoot Thanix cannons, so are they


4. The
nature of a missle is that it allows for more destruction in a shorter
timeframe. You could let off an entire battery of missles and jump to
FTL or you could stand around shooting your thanix cannon while in range
of a reaper that can destroy a dreadnaught in 1 hit.





Cliffnotes: Benefit of missle? Shooting while not being in range of something that can take you out in 1 hit.


1) LOS doesn't matter when things move at relativistic speeds

2) Anything shot in atmosphere at relativistic speeds will only heat up more not cool down due to friction. What you say is true in space combat but in that case missiles are useless anyway. If you're close enough in a vacuum for a missile to be even somewhat effective then you'll hit with the Thanix cannon long before you lose any heat (again, relativistic speeds).

3) The range of a Thanix cannon exceeds that of any missile short of an ICBM (and in space it exceeds the range of any missile period), and it damn sure exceeds the range between the Thanix launcher and the destroyer.

4) A missile can't deliver more destructive force than a mass accelerator unless it has a nuclear payload.

Edit: See http://en.wikipedia....ic_kill_vehicle for why 4 is true.

Edit2: And of course this is about the ending; everything is about the ending. All fiction is predicating on the willing suspension of disbelief. Some things may stretch or bend that but a good story makes sure it doesn't break it. As such anything that seems weird you kinda just brush off and go "meh" at. Unfortunately when something like the ME3 ending comes along it tears that willing suspension of disbelief apart, and when that happens you're ripped right out of the story. Now not only does the thing that ruined it make no sense, but all the little bull**** before that you just shrugged at becomes glaringly obvious in its ridiculousness.

Modifié par Tritium315, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:03 .


#205
thisisme8

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Tritium315 wrote...

1) LOS doesn't matter when things move at relativistic speeds

2) Anything shot in atmosphere at relativistic speeds will only heat up more not cool down due to friction. What you say is true in space combat but in that case missiles are useless anyway. If you're close enough in a vacuum for a missile to be even somewhat effective then you'll hit with the Thanix cannon long before you lose any heat (again, relativistic speeds).

3) The range of a Thanix cannon exceeds that of any missile short of an ICBM (and in space it exceeds the range of any missile period), and it damn sure exceeds the range between the Thanix launcher and the destroyer.

4) A missile can't deliver more destructive force than a mass accelerator unless it has a nuclear payload.

Edit: See http://en.wikipedia....ic_kill_vehicle for why 4 is true.

Edit2: And of course this is about the ending; everything is about the ending. All fiction is predicating on the willing suspension of disbelief. Some things may stretch or bend that but a good story makes sure it doesn't break it. As such anything that seems weird you kinda just brush off and go "meh" at. Unfortunately when something like the ME3 ending comes along it tears that willing suspension of disbelief apart, and when that happens you're ripped right out of the story. Now not only does the thing that ruined it make no sense, but all the little bull**** before that you just shrugged at becomes glaringly obvious in its ridiculousness.


It's like a combination of stubbornness and selective hearing.  There is literally no point in talking to you anymore since you've totally derailed this thread and all you seem to be able to say is, "but lazors are better!"

#206
Tritium315

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thisisme8 wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

1) LOS doesn't matter when things move at relativistic speeds

2) Anything shot in atmosphere at relativistic speeds will only heat up more not cool down due to friction. What you say is true in space combat but in that case missiles are useless anyway. If you're close enough in a vacuum for a missile to be even somewhat effective then you'll hit with the Thanix cannon long before you lose any heat (again, relativistic speeds).

3) The range of a Thanix cannon exceeds that of any missile short of an ICBM (and in space it exceeds the range of any missile period), and it damn sure exceeds the range between the Thanix launcher and the destroyer.

4) A missile can't deliver more destructive force than a mass accelerator unless it has a nuclear payload.

Edit: See http://en.wikipedia....ic_kill_vehicle for why 4 is true.

Edit2: And of course this is about the ending; everything is about the ending. All fiction is predicating on the willing suspension of disbelief. Some things may stretch or bend that but a good story makes sure it doesn't break it. As such anything that seems weird you kinda just brush off and go "meh" at. Unfortunately when something like the ME3 ending comes along it tears that willing suspension of disbelief apart, and when that happens you're ripped right out of the story. Now not only does the thing that ruined it make no sense, but all the little bull**** before that you just shrugged at becomes glaringly obvious in its ridiculousness.


It's like a combination of stubbornness and selective hearing.  There is literally no point in talking to you anymore since you've totally derailed this thread and all you seem to be able to say is, "but lazors are better!"


They're not even lasers.

#207
RadicalDisconnect

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For those who are claiming that missiles don't need LOS, you actually do unless you have a third party targeting for you. The reason that missiles are effective in the atmosphere is that projectiles and missiles speeds are currently at parity due to aerodynamics. Tactics and strategy don't remain the same when you move into another medium. For example, submarine warfare is vastly different from aerial warfare. Missiles have lots of mass. Inertial guidance, propulsion system, sensors, warhead. A big package for not a whole lot of firepower, especially in space. Mass accelerators are much more efficient in dishing out firepower.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 06 juillet 2012 - 05:20 .


#208
CINCTuchanka

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RadicalDisconnect wrote...

For those who are claiming that missiles don't need LOS, you actually do unless you have a third party targeting for you. The reason that missiles are effective in the atmosphere is that projectiles and missiles speeds are at parity due to aerodynamics. Tactics and strategy don't remain the same when you move into another medium. For example, submarine warfare is vastly different from aerial warfare. Missiles have lots of mass. Inertial guidance, propulsion system, sensors, warhead. A big package for not a whole lot of firepower, especially in space. Mass accelerators are much more efficient in dishing out firepower.


I always figured that slugs > missiles since GARDIAN systems could knock down most convential missiles.  Slugs result in less accuracy, but when you are on target it is immune to GARDIAN and can deal more kinetic damage.

#209
Tritium315

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CINCTuchanka wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

For those who are claiming that missiles don't need LOS, you actually do unless you have a third party targeting for you. The reason that missiles are effective in the atmosphere is that projectiles and missiles speeds are at parity due to aerodynamics. Tactics and strategy don't remain the same when you move into another medium. For example, submarine warfare is vastly different from aerial warfare. Missiles have lots of mass. Inertial guidance, propulsion system, sensors, warhead. A big package for not a whole lot of firepower, especially in space. Mass accelerators are much more efficient in dishing out firepower.


I always figured that slugs > missiles since GARDIAN systems could knock down most convential missiles.  Slugs result in less accuracy, but when you are on target it is immune to GARDIAN and can deal more kinetic damage.


Accuracy isn't even an issue when **** is moving at relativistic speeds; you just point and shoot. There's literally no advantage.

Modifié par Tritium315, 06 juillet 2012 - 05:24 .


#210
Sajuro

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Tritium315 wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

For those who are claiming that missiles don't need LOS, you actually do unless you have a third party targeting for you. The reason that missiles are effective in the atmosphere is that projectiles and missiles speeds are at parity due to aerodynamics. Tactics and strategy don't remain the same when you move into another medium. For example, submarine warfare is vastly different from aerial warfare. Missiles have lots of mass. Inertial guidance, propulsion system, sensors, warhead. A big package for not a whole lot of firepower, especially in space. Mass accelerators are much more efficient in dishing out firepower.


I always figured that slugs > missiles since GARDIAN systems could knock down most convential missiles.  Slugs result in less accuracy, but when you are on target it is immune to GARDIAN and can deal more kinetic damage.


Accuracy isn't even an issue when **** is moving at relativistic speeds; you just point and shoot. There's literally no advantage.

I would say accuracy is a pretty big deal :whistle: or did you forget whose the deadliest son of a **** in space.

#211
Tritium315

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Sajuro wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

CINCTuchanka wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

For those who are claiming that missiles don't need LOS, you actually do unless you have a third party targeting for you. The reason that missiles are effective in the atmosphere is that projectiles and missiles speeds are at parity due to aerodynamics. Tactics and strategy don't remain the same when you move into another medium. For example, submarine warfare is vastly different from aerial warfare. Missiles have lots of mass. Inertial guidance, propulsion system, sensors, warhead. A big package for not a whole lot of firepower, especially in space. Mass accelerators are much more efficient in dishing out firepower.


I always figured that slugs > missiles since GARDIAN systems could knock down most convential missiles.  Slugs result in less accuracy, but when you are on target it is immune to GARDIAN and can deal more kinetic damage.


Accuracy isn't even an issue when **** is moving at relativistic speeds; you just point and shoot. There's literally no advantage.

I would say accuracy is a pretty big deal :whistle: or did you forget whose the deadliest son of a **** in space.


That's what I mean though. In short distances there's no difference between a missile and a mass accelerator accuracy wise since if you lock on, you hit. With mass accelerators the impact is just instantaneous. Over distances that are long enough for it to not be instant (such as in space) I seriously doubt that a missile has enough fuel to travel that far (hundreds of thousands of kilometers) unless it's enormouse; in which case a GARDIAN laser would make short work of it 'cause it'd be such an easy target.

Now if they could make missiles with eezo cores that traveled at FTL speeds; that'd be another story.

#212
TK514

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Funkdrspot wrote...

We explained it to you already and all you can do is handwave it away b/c our answer isn't filled with enough angst for you.

Here let me copypasta:

What are you basing your opinion on? Just like The Angry One, you're
most likely angry about the ending and lashing out at anything and
everything Mass Effect.

1. Cannons require LOS. Missles do not

2.
Thanix cannons are not regular cannons. Meaning while they will
continue at the same speed, they will NOT continue at the same heat
level. Thus effectiveness is reduced to a certain range

3. The
Reapers have farther thanix cannon range than everyone else. By the time
you're in range to shoot Thanix cannons, so are they


4. The
nature of a missle is that it allows for more destruction in a shorter
timeframe. You could let off an entire battery of missles and jump to
FTL or you could stand around shooting your thanix cannon while in range
of a reaper that can destroy a dreadnaught in 1 hit.





Cliffnotes: Benefit of missle? Shooting while not being in range of something that can take you out in 1 hit.


1.  Name one space battle in Mass Effect where LOS was an issue.  In fact, given that every ship of the line shown, including the Reapers, relied on direct fire weapons to deliver their payload, it's safe to say that LOS would rarely be an issue in ME fleet warfare, by the simple deduction that if the two sides don't have LOS, they are going to have to maneuver until they do before engaging.

2.  Missiles have longer travel times to reach their target and are succeptible to anti-missile systems, purpose built decoy systems, and, as blatantly demonstrated in ME3, environmental effects on their critical systems.  To be anything approaching useful, you're still going to have to close to almost point blank ranges, and even then they are still absurdly vulnerable.  Again as demonstrated in ME3.  So, against the Reapers, direct fire weapons, even shorter range ones like the Thanix cannon, have potentially better range and accuracy.

3.  To reiterate the above, as demonstrated in ME3,  missiles have a potentially shorter effective range than any other weapon in the fleet.  They are demonstrably unreliable against the Reapers.  Theoretical range is meaningless because, no matter what, you're still going to have to close within range of the Reapers' weapons in order to effectively strike at them.

4.  You could also fire off your entire payload of missiles have have absolutely nothing happen because none of them could stay on target.  And those that did stay on target would still have to survive a Reaper's own GUARDIAN countermeasures.  At which point you've wasted a lot of resouces building expensive space junk, and wasted a lot of ammo storage that could have been used to support your less costly and more effective direct fire weapons.

Cliffnotes:  Theoretical range advantage of missiles is mitigated, if not completely negated, by Reaper technology.  Direct fire weapons in the Mass Effect universe, on the other hand, do not suffer from the same sluggish time to target or degredation of accuracy.

#213
Dark_Caduceus

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Basically terrible editing/lore continuity.

Like Smudboy said, Mass Effect 2 and 3 would really have benefited from a "lore guy" who would just cross-reference the Codex and previous games so that all the new story implementations could make sense.

#214
Funkdrspot

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

^ The last battle cutscene still tells us a different story for #3 then what you're saying there.


Oh you mean the last cutscene where little to no damage is done against an army of reapers when the entire fleet of the combined galaxy makes a surprise attack and starts firing from far away and STILL gets torn a new one? 

Its in the codex. Conventional kinetic weapons don't do jack to reaper barriers. How many times does this need to be repeated? 

#215
Funkdrspot

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Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Basically terrible editing/lore continuity.

Like Smudboy said, Mass Effect 2 and 3 would really have benefited from a "lore guy" who would just cross-reference the Codex and previous games so that all the new story implementations could make sense.


LoL smudboy is a tool and so is anyone who follows him. He does the same thing people in this thread are doing, which is to assume anything they don't know is a plothole. Any idiot can use Bill O'Reily logic. www.youtube.com/watch " Tide goes in, Tide goes out, You can't explain that!"

#216
Funkdrspot

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At this point it seems people who want an excuse to claim space magic/art/speculations have nothing of significance to add to the convo except to debate random semantics and display their rather apparent lack of an ability to grasp war strategy.

#217
Sebby

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Dark_Caduceus wrote...

Basically terrible editing/lore continuity.

Like Smudboy said, Mass Effect 2 and 3 would really have benefited from a "lore guy" who would just cross-reference the Codex and previous games so that all the new story implementations could make sense.


Indeed, I'm sure BW is oblivious that the Arc Pistol is a merger of Quarian and Cerberus tech.

#218
Kataphrut94

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Thnaix cannon is a stream of moltern metal suspended by Element Zero and fired at relativistic speed. Just picture that moltern metal slurry suspended inside a missile casing as opposed to the barrel of a gun and that's Thanix missiles.

#219
Funkdrspot

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Kataphrut94 wrote...

Thnaix cannon is a stream of moltern metal suspended by Element Zero and fired at relativistic speed. Just picture that moltern metal slurry suspended inside a missile casing as opposed to the barrel of a gun and that's Thanix missiles.


We've tried explaining this but they don't seem to get it. That or they think a missle has no practical application in Mass Effect.

#220
Tritium315

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Kataphrut94 wrote...

Thnaix cannon is a stream of moltern metal suspended by Element Zero and fired at relativistic speed. Just picture that moltern metal slurry suspended inside a missile casing as opposed to the barrel of a gun and that's Thanix missiles.


That's the important part.

Modifié par Tritium315, 06 juillet 2012 - 08:59 .


#221
Gorkan86

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Kataphrut94 wrote...

Thnaix cannon is a stream of moltern metal suspended by Element Zero and fired at relativistic speed. Just picture that moltern metal slurry suspended inside a missile casing as opposed to the barrel of a gun and that's Thanix missiles.

Just without that relativistic speed.

#222
Funkdrspot

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TK514 wrote...

1.  Name one space battle in Mass Effect where LOS was an issue.  In fact, given that every ship of the line shown, including the Reapers, relied on direct fire weapons to deliver their payload, it's safe to say that LOS would rarely be an issue in ME fleet warfare, by the simple deduction that if the two sides don't have LOS, they are going to have to maneuver until they do before engaging.


How do i start naming space battles in a series that doesn't really have many to speak of? How many times have we engaged in guerilla campaigns? 

Your point does not even begin to address mine. You talk about LOS as a necessity to fight. I talk about missles not requiring constant LOS as a strategic advantage for guerilla warfare.

TK514 wrote...
2.  Missiles have longer travel times to reach their target and are succeptible to anti-missile systems, purpose built decoy systems, and, as blatantly demonstrated in ME3, environmental effects on their critical systems.  To be anything approaching useful, you're still going to have to close to almost point blank ranges, and even then they are still absurdly vulnerable.  Again as demonstrated in ME3.  So, against the Reapers, direct fire weapons, even shorter range ones like the Thanix cannon, have potentially better range and accuracy.


EVERYTHING gets jammed by reaper tech so your point is moot. Yes, missles take longer but that's not the main concern. The main concern is maximum payload in minimum exposure time and distance.

TK514 wrote...
3.  To reiterate the above, as demonstrated in ME3,  missiles have a potentially shorter effective range than any other weapon in the fleet.  They are demonstrably unreliable against the Reapers.  Theoretical range is meaningless because, no matter what, you're still going to have to close within range of the Reapers' weapons in order to effectively strike at them.


Actually thanix cannons have the shortest range, then missles, then mass accelerator weapons.

Your entire point is based on an assumption ( "Theoretical range is meaningless because, no matter what, you're still
going to have to close within range of the Reapers' weapons in order to
effectively strike at them." ) with no proof to back up your claim.

TK514 wrote...
4.  You could also fire off your entire payload of missiles have have absolutely nothing happen because none of them could stay on target.  And those that did stay on target would still have to survive a Reaper's own GUARDIAN countermeasures.  At which point you've wasted a lot of resouces building expensive space junk, and wasted a lot of ammo storage that could have been used to support your less costly and more effective direct fire weapons.


Assumption. You argue that because missles are less effective against reapers that suddenly they're never effective.

1. A Reaper can 1shot a dreadnaught
2. A reaper shrugs off MA weapons
3. Thanix can somewhat bypass their shields BUT they have longer thanix range than we do.
4. For a firing solution for option 3, see option 1 first.


As for your last point, making an entire fleet worth of missles would probably be cheaper and faster to the 10x power than making a dreadnaught. You propose trading losses with an enemy that outnumbers us, overpowers us and has no weakness. 

TK514 wrote...
Cliffnotes:  Theoretical range advantage of missiles is mitigated, if not completely negated, by Reaper technology.  Direct fire weapons in the Mass Effect universe, on the other hand, do not suffer from the same sluggish time to target or degredation of accuracy.

It's mitigated through your abundant use of assumption. Then you don't even bother to touch the point that getting in range to use thanix cannons means the reapers already have you in range. How do you wage a guerilla campaign when you're trading losses? You can't. Please stop talking warfare. Just stop.

#223
Funkdrspot

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Gorkan86 wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Thnaix cannon is a stream of moltern metal suspended by Element Zero and fired at relativistic speed. Just picture that moltern metal slurry suspended inside a missile casing as opposed to the barrel of a gun and that's Thanix missiles.

Just without that relativistic speed.


Relativistic speed is obtained when the warhead detonates. I thought we already established this. Is this not what some of our CURRENT warheads and anti-tank weapons do ( minus the speed of light )? 

#224
thisisme8

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Funkdrspot wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Thnaix cannon is a stream of moltern metal suspended by Element Zero and fired at relativistic speed. Just picture that moltern metal slurry suspended inside a missile casing as opposed to the barrel of a gun and that's Thanix missiles.

Just without that relativistic speed.


Relativistic speed is obtained when the warhead detonates. I thought we already established this. Is this not what some of our CURRENT warheads and anti-tank weapons do ( minus the speed of light )? 


You can explain all you want, these people can't get past their lasers.  It's funny, all you and I did was explain how it would be possible using existing lore and people get mad like we invented the damn things.

#225
Tritium315

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Funkdrspot wrote...

Gorkan86 wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Thnaix cannon is a stream of moltern metal suspended by Element Zero and fired at relativistic speed. Just picture that moltern metal slurry suspended inside a missile casing as opposed to the barrel of a gun and that's Thanix missiles.

Just without that relativistic speed.


Relativistic speed is obtained when the warhead detonates. I thought we already established this. Is this not what some of our CURRENT warheads and anti-tank weapons do ( minus the speed of light )? 


Except the speed of light part is the whole point of the technology. Without relativistic velocities the entire weapon is pointless.

There is no reason to have a missile when you can deliver the same payload (hell, more), in a much shorter timeframe.

Modifié par Tritium315, 06 juillet 2012 - 09:26 .