145 réponses à ce sujet

[NRieh]

I don't think that special mission should only be available for Kaidan or Ashley, otherwise, people won't buy the DLC if they can't play the missions without those characters.

Yes, just as I mentioned above, and that looks much like dead-end.

BW won't do "mortal"-char specific stuff. They simply can't. Because if they do - they will cut off huge part of players base. That's why Liara can't be hurt no matter what - she is needed for Javik (or, probably, vice versa - I mean they picked her for this mission because she always survives)

One of two is 100% dead from the start. Another one may not survive coup or be sent away to Adm. Hack-it-out, which means - not avalible\\in squad. Also, big part of game Kaidan (or Ashley) spend in hospital. So, the only period when he (or she) 100% avalible to every player - between hospital and coup. And one would need to make new run (or have pre-coup save) in order to play this hypothetical DLC.

But I know what you'd like to see, Nrieh - one specially designed mission for each. One for Kaidan and one for Ashley.

Yep, exactly. But, as I already wrote - it means either double price for player or doing double job for same price for BW. I believe it will never happen.

I'd like to know what you want to do for Kaidan?

Anything that does not break his character and allows him to use biotics in cuts, actualy... I mean... even Thane used biotics in cut! 8P And, probably it would be much more nice if they put it before romance locks. Even if two of them (Kaidan-Shepard) will eventually share a kiss (or almost share a kiss...yes, Joker, I'll never forget! ) - it should be about character's personsality, not about "quest for Shepard's cabin".

I'm sure most of us have enough imagination to figure out wht exactly happened night before "next time - wake me" line, does anyone really need DLCs for that?..

[Mimitochan]

Nrieh wrote...

Even if two of them (Kaidan-Shepard) will eventually share a kiss (or almost share a kiss...yes, Joker, I'll never forget! ) - it should be about character's personsality, not about "quest for Shepard's cabin".

I'm sure most of us have enough imagination to figure out wht exactly happened night before "next time - wake me" line, does anyone really need DLCs for that?..

Ahahah, NO, i sure don't need any DLC for that, I was just trying to think about genuine "romance" DLC, since this was the actual subject for the whole petition and surveymonkey and so on to start with. What I meant by that though, is not extra sexy times, but maybe some extra scene to make the reunion feel ah... less forced, to make the transition smoother, whether before or after the date anyway, doesn't matter. Cause honestly, the date was really sweet and all, but having femShep suddenly declare "I can't bury my feelings for you anymore, and I don't want to", it really felt as if coming out of the blue to me.

Anyway, since OP seems to agree to shift the orientation towards character centered and less romance driven, yes, I totally agree it would serve the characters a lot more that way. 

Modifié par Mimitochan, 10 juillet 2012 - 01:44 .

[CptData]

@ Nrieh
Definitely. BW won't waste time on creating missions you can only do with a certain character, especially if that character can die. So my first thought on the Virmire mission was, to make it open for anyone, however, to have full success in said mission, you need either Ashley or Kaidan.

Hmm, let's think about it. We still can use the same mission for both, but could alter the cutscenes depending on who's taking part.

Example:

Ashley @ Virmire
# Ambush Scene
At some point the squad gets caught in an ambush of Cerberus soldiers. Ashley uses her grenade skill to get them out of cover. One or two get killed, and Ash takes down the rest of the squad with her sniper rifle.

Kaidan @ Virmire
# Ambush Scene
Same situation. Cerberus is preparing an ambush. Kaidan uses his biotics to lift and smash some guys before taking down the rest with his gun.

Other squadmate @ Virmire
# Ambush Scene
Again, same situation. Since you don't have Ashley or Kaidan, a randomly picked squadmate is displayed. The squadmate can't take out any of the troops and Shepard's squad is pinned down. You need to fight through the enemies while with Ash or Kaidan this fight can be avoided entirely.

Pretty much the same situation, but both do it with their own powers. Not the best example, but you might get the idea what I want.


Uhh and Ashley has no such line like Kaidan does. At least you get the idea Kaidan moved in. For us Ash fans, there is not such hint since the ONLY line hinting Ash wanted to move in was removed before it made into the release.

----

About sudden "snu-snu time" - is it just me or does it feel a bit "tacked on"? We knew it would happen before the finale, but especially in Ashley's case it kinda comes out of the blue. You had your drunken scene, you had your date and then - in worst case - you have far more than 10 hours of gameplay before doing the Cerberus HQ mission. And in those 10 hours you rarely have any interaction with Ashley or Kaidan.

That issue should be removed - well, basically, it's in the OP. ^^

Modifié par CptData, 10 juillet 2012 - 01:48 .

[Skyline45]

Thats a kewl idea, but Kaiden and Ashley already have pretty big romances compared to say my Shepard's LI, Miranda, who got the short end of the stick. It's like the writers completely forgot about her till the last couple of months of development. Same goes for the Thane, Jack, and other LI's.

[CptData]

Skyline45 wrote...

Thats a kewl idea, but Kaiden and Ashley already have pretty big romances compared to say my Shepard's LI, Miranda, who got the short end of the stick. It's like the writers completely forgot about her till the last couple of months of development. Same goes for the Thane, Jack, and other LI's.

That's why I mentioned the BIG ROMANCE DLC should be splitted up into smaller DLCs focusing on one or two missions and improving the interaction / romances with some characters. This thread deals with Ashley and Kaidan - but other threads can be made dealing with Jack, Jacob, Miranda, Thane ...

Compared to another well known romance, Ash & Kaidan got reduced content, especially between the romance scenes ...

Modifié par CptData, 10 juillet 2012 - 01:59 .

[NRieh]

So my first thought on the Virmire mission was, to make it open for anyone, however, to have full success in said mission, you need either Ashley or Kaidan.

It's same character-related restriction. No one can have advantages from squad members that are not avalibvle to every player (and in every moment of playthrough). It's much same as if they made some mission where Javik would have advantages.

Other squadmate @ Virmire
# Ambush Scene
Again, same situation. Since you don't have Ashley or Kaidan, a randomly picked squadmate is displayed. The squadmate can't take out any of the troops and Shepard's squad is pinned down.

I may like or may dislike rest of my squad...But I don't remember Kaidan having some supertraining, so that he can exclusively handle something (or someone) that, let's say, Garrus or James can not. Same goes for Ashley. If we're not supposing some "Virmire fever" which affects the surviver and makes his powers and weapons do tripple damage. 8)

[CptData]

Nrieh wrote...

So my first thought on the Virmire mission was, to make it open for anyone, however, to have full success in said mission, you need either Ashley or Kaidan.

It's same character-related restriction. No one can have advantages from squad members that are not avalibvle to every player (and in every moment of playthrough). It's much same as if they made some mission where Javik would have advantages.

Well, we might need to define "what is success in ME3"? I'd say, regardless if you have Ash/Kaidan or not, you should be able to finish the mission. It also should give you some kind of reward if you do. However, if you say "success is measured in amount of war assets", I'd say, the Virmire mission simply should only grant you full war assets if Ash/Kaidan was with you and less assets if you didn't bring one of them.
That's how it was done in vanilla ME3 in some missions, just not bound to a certain character but certain decisions. The closest thing for such job is the Aralakh-mission with Grunt: you won't get full assets if Grunt dies / wasn't alive in that mission.

Can think about other ideas too.

Other squadmate @ Virmire
# Ambush Scene
Again, same situation. Since you don't have Ashley or Kaidan, a randomly picked squadmate is displayed. The squadmate can't take out any of the troops and Shepard's squad is pinned down.

I may like or may dislike rest of my squad...But I don't remember Kaidan having some supertraining, so that he can exclusively handle something (or someone) that, let's say, Garrus or James can not. Same goes for Ashley. If we're not supposing some "Virmire fever" which affects the surviver and makes his powers and weapons do tripple damage. 8)

No, Just think about the core idea: Virmire is a special place for Kaidan and Ashley. There one of them died and the other one is remembering him/her. That greatly boosts morality - the VS (sorry for using that term now) simply WANTS to be successful to honor the one who died. So in that case, Ash / Kaidan is at his/her finest hour and it should be displayed.
Other squadmates are not "less" powerful - they're just not that overly motivated.

At least that's what I had in my mind while developing that idea.

[NRieh]

It also should give you some kind of reward if you do. However, if you say "success is measured in amount of war assets", I'd say, the Virmire mission simply should only grant you full war assets if Ash/Kaidan was with you and less assets if you didn't bring one of them.

It is not important how success is measured in this case. There still will be fact - one who had Kaidan alive and avalible will get more than one who had him dead in coup or sent to Hackett. And both pay same price for DLC (unless we start believing that all of them are for free now and forever). That's why your example with Grunt does not work. Decisions is one thing, all have same options to make choices. Extra $$ content - is much another story.

Other squadmates are not "less" powerful - they're just not that overly motivated.

Garrus? Liara? They were there. I can't see any logic why would they have so drastically less motivation for fighting.

[dgcatanisiri]

I've often considered the fact that there is no mission (aside from Mars) where Ashley/Kaidan aren't required to be a flaw. It basically treats them as being less important - they don't get their own mission, while Garrus, EDI, Tali, and Liara all get a special 'focus' mission with them as a required teammate. It basically makes them seem like secondary characters at best and doesn't show why they are important enough both for Shepard to want them on the team or romance them. So some mission like returning to Virmire to study indoctrination, where having them along is required and they talk, expand their character development, would be greatly appreciated.

Or if not Virmire, make it a special mission only for Spectres - the fact that Ashley/Kaidan get made the second human Spectre actually means nothing in practical terms of the game. Back when it was first announced, I thought that Ashley/Kaidan would have already been made a Spectre and would have offered a chance for them to argue against Shepard's orders or even take their own initiative because they now are Shepard's equal. So do SOMETHING with this apparent big deal of being made Spectre, because it really doesn't matter in the game.

I know that the developer talk has been that Ashley and Kaidan had the same limit of lines and that the writer for Ashley's character just put more of her dialogue and development over on the Citadel. I would say that a DLC would allow that to be expanded, allow more Normandy development, because she FEELS like an afterthought in the game right now, even though don't those numbers that get tossed around on occasion show that Ashley was saved more often on Virmire? I think Kaidan could use more content, but Ashley NEEDS it.

[CptData]

Nrieh wrote...

Garrus? Liara? They were there. I can't see any logic why would they have so drastically less motivation for fighting.

It is still Ashley's / Kaidan's mission. And I don't really want another mission that allows Liara to shine over everyone else - she had her moment of badassery on Mars already :lol:

And as dgcatanisiri  said: every other character has a special mission, Tali has a full set of missions, Liara has Mars, Thessia and Eden Prime. Garrus has Palaven. Just Ashley and Kaidan only have one real mission, that's Mars, and that's not their finest hour but the DARKEST. They simply have no real mission where they can show why they're Spectres or some of the finest officers the Alliance has to offer. And Udina's coup doesn't really count.

I think Virmire should be Kaidan's and Ashley's finest hour. It should show their potential: Kaidan's biotic skills, Ashley's skills as tough soldier. That's the idea here.

Also, am I the only one who thinks Ash/Kaidan should have a minute of silence remembering the dead one on Virmire? Some touching scene ... you know.

Modifié par CptData, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:19 .

[Ashii6]

I like the ideas, Data. Well, mostly for VS DLC. Having a mission on Virmire with Ash/Kai? That would be great. Ashley had little timescreen in ME3 ( Kai had little more/conversations ) and something like this may improve VS treatment in the game. I'm even willing to pay for such DLC.
Liara wasn't in ME2 as squaddie, but she had her own DLC. Then why VS can't have one? >.>

Modifié par Ashii6, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:27 .

[Allstar27]

CptData wrote...

Also, am I the only one who thinks Ash/Kaidan should have a minute of silence remembering the dead one on Virmire? Some touching scene ... you know.

They could possibly erect a mini monument for who everfell on Virmire like the one Shepard did for the Normandy SR1 in ME2:




Only not as big 

Modifié par Allstar27, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:36 .

[Mimitochan]

@CptData I understand the idea of making Virmire important as a setting for a mission for both Ash & Kaidan, and I like the idea of some sort of tribute to the Virmire squadmate who sacrificied. Thing is, I feel it's déjà vu (Normandy crash site, and obviously, ME1), and it would mostly appeal to ME1 players, especially with an Ash & Kaidan bonus. You said you were concerned about ME3 newbie getting to know and like Ash & Kaidan, I'm not sure a Virmire mission would do the job, not "exciting" enough, and too "nostalgic". Actually, that could make them seem downright boring to some players unfortunately. I remember some comments about the Normandy crash site, people complaining about how there wasn't any action at all.

But I totally agree Ash & Kaidan deserve ther finest hour. And first thing that comes to my mind, is Spectreness. Because Spectre status is one of the things that make them stand out among other squadmates, and we never get to witness that. And also, Spectreness is pure awesomeness. ME3 newbie players take that for granted - but do you remember from ME1 how it was exceptional and one of the main chapters of the storytelling?

Remember from ME1 when Shepard turns Spectre? You get a bonus ability. The bonus for Ash & Kaidan could be something of the sort. Problem is, how to insert a mission before the coup and make it ah, legitimate...

What do we do now about the Spectre ceremony? If it's too difficult to think about a combat mission, what about events that could take place here? Maybe Ash or Kaidan getting some hints about Udina's treason which would make it easier to save them at the coup?

Modifié par Mimitochan, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:58 .

[CptData]

Well, the Virmire mission could be used to transport a message to the new guys.

In fact, I believe there's a good bunch of new guys who started to play ME1 and ME2 AFTER playing ME3 to get a full playthrough. Thanks to the endings, the amount of ppl is not that big, but still there.
So if people could hook up with Ashley and Kaidan in ME3, they also might give them a chance in ME1 when starting a new playthrough. Well, that's my theory here ... ^^

A good tad of sappy sap is needed. I mean, c'mon, new guys also went through the Time Capsule scene with Liara. I think that's pretty much one of the most sappy-nostalgic moments in the game, so I doubt a similar moment on Virmire will hurt anyone.

Whatever. I dunno how to incorporate the Spectre story for Ash/Kaidan in that DLC. It's never fully stated if the VS kept the status or not after the Coup, but I believe they both kept it. So in that case, the Virmire mission could be linked to some Spectre stuff here. Someone asked me to add Major Kirrahe in the mission too, some STG action ... well, it's highly complicated.

Currently working at a flow chart to check all the variables needed to get the Virmire section running.

[Mimitochan]

I'm not saying it would hurt, I'm saying maybe it wouldn't appeal enough, we're talking about paid DLC here, and well... we're not talking about almighty Liara

The best chance we've got to ever see some kind of DLC happening is to have something that appeals to the largest crowd possible, something that will sell! Some ME3 newbies will want to begin from scratch, and that's wonderful, but many will just stick to ME3, because ME1 may feel too "old-school", or because it doesn't exist (PS3 methink). Plus ME3 is such a different game from ME1, some players will just want to stick to the Gears of War gameplay, so why bother?

So, all i'm saying is that counting on newbie players who will be curious enough to begin from scratch with ME1 may be too restrictive, and lower the economic viability of such a project.

But the best move may be indeed to have the best of the two worlds by combining Virmire and Spectreness, you're right, if it still makes sense of course.

EDIT > actually, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to come up with 2 different propositions? They could be complementary.

Modifié par Mimitochan, 10 juillet 2012 - 10:25 .

[NRieh]

Well, the Virmire mission could be used to transport a message to the new guys.

Oh my.... leave Virmire with it's nuclear crate. Especially of you're trying to help "newbies". It can not transport anything to them. They don't know what it was. They've never been there. They NEVER made that choice themselves, they won't care.

It's never fully stated if the VS kept the status or not after the Coup, but I believe they both kept it.

Kaidan did. Watch the news. That's in game. Just don't tell me they did not make news report for Ashley. 8P

So in that case, the Virmire mission could be linked to some Spectre stuff here

...and with lots of cabin hugs at the end? 8) Decide first what you are trying to do. Spectres mission, Virmire flashback or romance pack?

And don't forget to answer main question - WHEN can such kind of DLC happen, and how to make BW make DLC that requires specific plot moment in order to be avalible for all the players..

Maybe Ash or Kaidan getting some hints about Udina's treason which would make it easier to save them at the coup?

Was it ever hard to?.. I found out that he can die via vids from YT.

I remember some comments about the Normandy crash site, people complaining about how there wasn't any action at all.

Like there was no Miranda's rear part seen on screen and that was too boring, huh?
Probably, one of the best missions, imo. Something like that about Virmire I'd probably accept...But on the other hand - there is not much one can add to nhaneh's render that was seen two pages ago here. One shot that sais it all. To those who listen.

Modifié par Nrieh, 10 juillet 2012 - 10:27 .

[CptData]

Just tossing ideas, tbh.
And gathering input.

Focus?

1st Virmire mission (partly working as build up but also to tell the story)
2nd extended interaction with Ashley / Kaidan (more friendly talk, full dialogues)
3rd extended romances with Ashley / Kaidan (better romantic build up, new scenes, ...)

Pretty much in that order. I really don't want to water down the romance section to a point where we have only a story content that adds three more romantic lines of dialogue to each character. That's not the point of this thread.

Modifié par CptData, 10 juillet 2012 - 10:37 .

[dgcatanisiri]

You know, if for whatever reason a mission about Virmire isn't possible (PS3 players not having ME1, whatever), how about a mission there on the Citadel about finding out more about Udina's coup attempt - kill two birds with one stone by giving Shepard and Ashley/Kaidan more one-on-one time and cleaning up how Udina wound up working with Cerberus. I mean, yeah, I can believe he was interested in grabbing more power to protect Earth, but turning to Cerberus, a confirmed terrorist group and repeated enemy of the Alliance? It's a little bit of a stretch, at least for me. So the two human Spectres get ordered to work together and find some more information about Udina, involving some more friendly dialogues as they work where they get to offer their own personal opinions about Cerberus, Horizon, ME3 events, etc, and talking about themselves.

Then, after the mission, they rejoin the Normandy, give Ashley a 'return to the Normandy' conversation, expand both of their conversations to include comments about initial discomfort at serving with EDI, given that she's wearing the 'bot that nearly killed them (I HATE Kaidan's comment about how EDI 'looks good' when that's the same thing that slammed him against the shuttle), asking if Shepard thinks that they need to rebuild trust with the crew (referring to Joker's comment when you talk to him after the coup), and include some more character moments that at the least utilize their ME1 characterizations, which are lacking (IMO) in ME3, particularly with Ashley (I did say before that she feels like a DLC character, right? Because she does).

Just been tossing some ideas around.

[sporeaddict101]

I am so for a VS DLC. I would pay big bucks for it. (more Ash plz!)

[RedHotElite]

I need to give props to CptData for doing this. I love the ideas presented in this thread and would literally throw my money at Bioware if they made a Kaidan/Ashley-related DLC. Especially if it took place on Virmire. It'd offer heaploads of nostalgia, character development, and chances to stop and remember the one who died in ME1. Involving comforting words, and an extra hug from a romanced Shepard? 

It would probably need to relate to the overall story, so...maybe Cerberus is scavenging for the remains of the old indoctrination facility for study on Sanctuary? The intelligence is crucial, so they can't let Cerberus have it. Shepard (And Kaidan/Ashley) are given government access and are sent (as Spectres) to clear out Cerberus. Afterwards followed by a short memorial scene reminiscent to the one in the Normandy Crashsite DLC. Just a suggestion...

And while faithful femSheps deserve their reward for staying with Kaidan...

bas_kon wrote...

What about a reward for imported m!Sheps ONLY could be friends with Kaidan in ME1, but never exeprienced another romance other than his in ME3? IMHO, waiting for his s/s romance to be cannon, and going through 2 games dodging female LIs and asari advances is worthy of some reward... ¬¬

I believe this should happen as well. Possibly an extra kiss and a line or two from Shepard explaining how he's been holding a torch for Kaidan since their days on the Normandy SR-1.

[dgcatanisiri]

Also, one thing I would think would be nice, though it's probably more wishful thinking, would be a brief Citadel sidequest regarding whoever was left on Virmire - Shepard and Kaidan meeting Ashley's sister (she should be on the Citadel either way, shouldn't she want to meet with the people who served with her sister?), and... Something for Shepard and Ashley regarding Kaidan. I'm not sure what, since anything for them to talk about regarding him would need to be addressed in playthroughs with him. Maybe Rahna or a relative of Vyrnnus is working in Huerta?

I'm not asking for something long and drawn out, just say a conversation cutscene or two on the Citadel that show the importance of the crewmate and friend they both lost. Kaidan talks about how he and Shepard 'went through Ash's death together,' but that's actually like the only occasion that he actually talks about Ash.

[NRieh]

would be a brief Citadel sidequest regarding whoever was left on Virmire

Many people disliked post-thessia "autoemotions", when renegade shepards were forced to feel\\look sad and guilty. What makes you think that "forced" memories of Ashley or Kaidan would look\\feel any better?

[dgcatanisiri]

Nrieh wrote...

would be a brief Citadel sidequest regarding whoever was left on Virmire

Many people disliked post-thessia "autoemotions", when renegade shepards were forced to feellook sad and guilty. What makes you think that "forced" memories of Ashley or Kaidan would lookfeel any better?

First of all, sidequests are optional, so if they really don't care, they don't have to do it. For second, this gives emotional ressonance regarding a personal loss, a friend or lover at best, an officer under Shepard's command who died effectively at his/her order at worse, not the loss of a planet that we the players had no emotional connection to. And for third, I am making suggestions for ways to improve the friendship paths for Ashley/Kaidan, which, given that I pointed out Kaidan's line about 'going through Ash's death together,' would be part of this, given that the death of the other on Virmire is said to have brought Shepard and Ashley/Kaidan closer together, but it isn't a connection really felt in game.

[CptData]

Sorry for late response ... ^^

@dgcatanisiri
Well, I like your idea. However, I think Virmire had a much bigger impact on Ashley / Kaidan - much more than Eden Prime, where you had your first mission with both. It's kinda funny BW never used that chance to give the VS some extra screen time - it was mostly a Liara centered mission.
Don't see any reasons why a Virmire mission isn't possible.

Placing another mission between coup and VS return won't work that well in my eyes, mostly 'cause the mission will be too short compared to a full blown mission on a different world. It may feel like Kasumi's mission. Also I don't think BW wants to create more Citadel sections to explore - and exploring the SAME sections again is not what the players want.

Extending / adding a dialogue post returning to the Normandy, however, is a must have in my eyes. Kaidan has some content in that field, Ashley has none.

----

@KevinHawke
I think I had the idea with intel on indoctrination that can be found on Virmire. That could be used as War Asset - and the amount of that war asset should increase based on the state of your relationship with Ash or Kaidan. The closer Shepard and the VS are, the more war assets you get. Foiling TIM's plan to find valuable intel is not possible, he'll get what he wants, but the VS can recover more intel the closer the relationship with Shepard is. Also the debriefing scene will be different ...

---

@Nrieh
No one wants to force on any stuff - however, I like that idea of some memorial stuff. It should only be totally optional, however - like anything in that DLC.
On the other hand: we get so much stuff "forced down our throat" in ME3, that bit extra won't hurt.

It definitely should be "in there". Even if Shep pulls the renegade line it shouldn't be totally low.

Example? fem!Shep left Ashley and saved Kaidan. Even if fem!Shep is totally renegade, her line shouldn't hit against Ashley or hurt Kaidan's positive feelings towards his lost comrade, but should be professional. Something like this:

- Paragon answer: She was a good friend, Kaidan. I miss her as much as you do. If I could go back, I'd try to save you both ...
- Neutral answer: Ashley was a comrade and a friend, Kaidan. She knew what she had to do.
- Renegade answer: Williams was a soldier. Sacrifices are part of the job, and she knew it was her turn.

That should cover pretty much all tastes without being low.