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[jesuno]

Logan Cloud wrote...

jesuno wrote...

Logan Cloud wrote...

jesuno wrote...

Logan Cloud wrote...

jesuno wrote...

Logan Cloud wrote...

Still a Japanese game...

So is Metal Gear and Dark Souls, what is your point?

Do you really want me to explain Japanese culture to you? Really?
And Metal Gear is more focused on realism. It takes place in a real country, in a real time period, with real armies, and real weapons.

You're seriously gonna sit there and compare Metal Gear to Final Fantasy?

Oh, Metal Gear is focused on realism? Hang on, I'm going to jump into my gecko and ride to your house so you can let me know all about Japanese culture.

Don't be a smartass, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Which is more believable, Metal Gear, or Final Fantasy?

Why, is that something that is reserved for people that like FF 13? You keep bringing up excuses for things that are just wrong. Does Dark Souls, the other game I mentioned, focused on realism as well? 

Excuses? What?

Dark Souls is focused more on Western culture. Similar to Dragon's Dogma. Metal Gear is focused on Western culture. Final Fantasy is not. That's all there is to it.

Wait, FF is not focused on Western Culture? Have you played another FF game besides 13?

[jesuno]

Ghost Lightning wrote...

Druss99 wrote...

Through my hazy rose tinted memory I thought AC looked better, but I've not watched it in a while and I'm possibly wrong there. I remember being stunned at how real Lightning's eyes looked the first time I saw a screenshot. I'd watch a movie just to see how good it looked.

Here's a good one that shows the level of detail in the CG from XIII. Two hours of this? Yes please.

Only two hours of cutscenes? Well, the cutscene team at SE wouldn't know what to do with all their free time.

[Ghost Lightning]

jesuno wrote...

Wait, FF is not focused on Western Culture? Have you played another FF game besides 13?

Well in that regard, XIII also had alot of Western style imagery and theme material. As well as European. Actually, the characters are all heavily european in XIII. Their names especially all having heavy French influences. I mean Lightning's name in Japan is Eclaire Farron which literally means "Lightning Thunder" in French. So there were a few different culturalt sources in XIII

and I'm not trying to make a point or argue, just pointing out a fact I find interesting.

jesuno wrote...


Only two hours of cutscenes? Well, the cutscene team at SE wouldn't know what to do with all their free time.

LOL. You say that as if cutscenes are a bad thing.

Modifié par Ghost Lightning, 08 juillet 2012 - 01:12 .

[jesuno]

Logan Cloud wrote...

I played 7, and I think I played one on the Gameboy, but other than that, not really.

But how exactly does that make my point invalid? What about FFXIII seems to be focused on Western Culture? At what point in time did you see a brave knight ride on horseback to slay a dragon and save a princess? FFXIII is a great example of a Japanese game.

If that is your definition of being based on Western culture, then Metal Gear isn't based on Western Culture.

[jesuno]

Ghost Lightning wrote...

jesuno wrote...

Wait, FF is not focused on Western Culture? Have you played another FF game besides 13?

Well in that regard, XIII also had alot of Western style imagery and theme material. As well as European. Actually, the characters are all heavily european in XIII. Their names especially all having heavy French influences. I mean Lightning's name in Japan is Eclaire Farron which literally means "Lightning Thunder" in French. So there were a few different culturalt sources in XIII

and I'm not trying to make a point or argue, just pointing out a fact I find interesting.

jesuno wrote...


Only two hours of cutscenes? Well, the cutscene team at SE wouldn't know what to do with all their free time.

LOL. You say that as if cutscenes are a bad thing.

Cutscenes are not bad, but the way they are being utilized by SE these days are completely bad.

[Ghost Lightning]

jesuno wrote...

Cutscenes are not bad, but the way they are being utilized by SE these days are completely bad.

using cutscenes to help further the story is....a bad thing?

[jesuno]

Logan Cloud wrote...

jesuno wrote...

Logan Cloud wrote...

I played 7, and I think I played one on the Gameboy, but other than that, not really.

But how exactly does that make my point invalid? What about FFXIII seems to be focused on Western Culture? At what point in time did you see a brave knight ride on horseback to slay a dragon and save a princess? FFXIII is a great example of a Japanese game.

If that is your definition of being based on Western culture, then Metal Gear isn't based on Western Culture.

It was simply an example.

No, Metal Gear is based on Western Culture for entirely different reasons. The most obvious would be the fact that Snake and all of the main characters are American, and are fighting for America.

Metal Gear is still a Japanese game however, and there are plenty of references to Japanese culture within the game. Like Gray Fox, or Metal Gear itself. Even Otacon is an Otaku, and references anime on several occasions.

Ok, you're not that quick so let you in on something. Even though you asked me to stop being a smartass, I didn't.

You stated that the reason FF13's character designs were bad and incoherent was because it was a Japanese game. I gave two examples of Japanese games with great character designs.

You stated FF (as a whole, not just 13) was based on Eastern cultures, another fact that was quickly debunked. How is 13 based on the Japanese culture? Your main characters are 5 white people and a black guy.

[jesuno]

jreezy wrote...

Erik Lehnsherr wrote...

Ghost Lightning wrote...

jesuno wrote...

Cutscenes are not bad, but the way they are being utilized by SE these days are completely bad.

using cutscenes to help further the story is....a bad thing?

Here.

I only needed to watch 3 minutes, I agree with him. However, I think cutscenes work in Final Fantasy because of its more passive gameplay. That's just me though.

Cutscenes are not bad, but when the first 40 hours in "walk, cutscene, walk, cutscene" then it becomes a problem. And combine that with the poorly written and voiced dialogue and bad pacing, it is a recipe for disastor.

[Druss99]

I forgot how good the CG looked in FF13, just watched Ghost's link and some FF7:AC. There's not a huge difference I don't think. I'd definately check out a movie made using them. Mind you I did make that mistake with Avatar...

I do enjoy a good cutscene, I found them to be a nice reward back in FF7, FF8 and FF9. They were like spectacular show pieces adding to the story. I do feel some games go way too far with them though, I felt bored during huge parts of FF13, SE just went nuts with the damn things and thats coming from someone who loved MGS, the only time they annoyed me in that series was at the end of MGS2. There's a balance to be found.

[Ghost Lightning]

jesuno wrote...

Cutscenes are not bad, but when the first 40 hours in "walk, cutscene, walk, cutscene" then it becomes a problem. And combine that with the poorly written and voiced dialogue and bad pacing, it is a recipe for disastor.

Well then it's just that in your personal opinion the dialogue and pacing is poor. I was completely sucked into XIII's story from the beginning. So it's all personal preference. And like jreezy said, FF has always had more passive cinematic gameplay (at least in the 3D FF era from VII-present). So while you may think it was walk/cutscene/etc. I've played the game 6 times now and I assure you there was combat in there too. It's jsut in the beginning of the game they were more concerned with setting up the story than setting up the combat. Which is evident because it's about 15-20 hours before you unlock all of your combat abilities. After that, some of the fights are damn near impossible. I dare anyone that claims the combat is automatic to try to go after the 64 c'ieth stone missions.  

Modifié par Ghost Lightning, 08 juillet 2012 - 01:55 .

[jesuno]

Ghost Lightning wrote...

jesuno wrote...

Cutscenes are not bad, but when the first 40 hours in "walk, cutscene, walk, cutscene" then it becomes a problem. And combine that with the poorly written and voiced dialogue and bad pacing, it is a recipe for disastor.

Well then it's just that in your personal opinion the dialogue and pacing is poor. I was completely sucked into XIII's story from the beginning. So it's all personal preference. And like jreezy said, FF has always had more passive cinematic gameplay (at least in the 3D FF era from VII-present). So while you may think it was walk/cutscene/etc. I've played the game 6 times now and I assure you there was combat in there too. It's jsut in the beginning of the game they were more concerned with setting up the story than setting up the combat. Which is evident because it's about 15-20 hours before you unlock all of your combat abilities. After that, some of the fights are damn near impossible. I dare anyone that claims the combat is automatic to try to go after the 64 c'ieth stone missions.  

There is no way a human walked away from the crap coming out of Snow, Hope or Vanille's mouths and said to themselves "Yep, that was good writing and voice acting." That is like saying Sonic 2006 is a good game. And another bad excuse for SE 's stuff, Bastion set up its world and story wonderfully and didn't use any cutscenes or pull the control out of my hands.

[Ghost Lightning]

jesuno wrote...

There is no way a human walked away from the crap coming out of Snow, Hope or Vanille's mouths and said to themselves "Yep, that was good writing and voice acting." That is like saying Sonic 2006 is a good game. And another bad excuse for SE 's stuff, Bastion set up its world and story wonderfully and didn't use any cutscenes or pull the control out of my hands.

So because a different game used a different method to set up it's story and you liked it, that automatically means every other way is inferior? I don't think that's the case. I enjoy cut scenes. A break from the grind that gives meaning to the gameplay and combat, gives the fights a purpose through story. Now like you mentioned, some games do this without cutscenes, and that's good for those games cause if done right that too can really work. But using cutscnes in the way XIII did was something I liked a lot. 

And about the voice acting in XIII, I liked it. All of it. Even Vanille. And I'm not alone, most critics speak pretty highly of the acting and the presentaion in general (not that I think critics are all knowing or always right, just that there are people that liked and appreciated the voice acting).

Modifié par Ghost Lightning, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:11 .

[jesuno]

Ghost Lightning wrote...

jesuno wrote...

There is no way a human walked away from the crap coming out of Snow, Hope or Vanille's mouths and said to themselves "Yep, that was good writing and voice acting." That is like saying Sonic 2006 is a good game. And another bad excuse for SE 's stuff, Bastion set up its world and story wonderfully and didn't use any cutscenes or pull the control out of my hands.

So because a different game used a different method to set up it's story and you liked it, that automatically means every other way is inferior? I don't think that's the case. I enjoy cut scenes. A break from the grind that gives meaning to the gameplay and combat, gives the fights a purpose through story. Now like you mentioned, some games do this without cutscenes, and that's good for those games cause if done right that too can really work. But using cutscnes in the way XIII did was something I liked a lot. 

And about the voice acting in XIII, I liked it. All of it. Even Vanille. And I'm not alone, most critics speak pretty highly of the acting and the presentaion in general (not that I think critics are all knowing or always right, just that there are people that liked and appreciated the voice acting).

http://www.metacriti.../critic-reviews

Here is the metacritic page for FF13. Please find this sweeping praise for its dialogue, becuase I only looked at the scores that were 90 or above, and only one person actually admitted to liking while most brushed over it and several commented on it being poor or cringe worthy.

You just stated the perfect examples of using a cutscene, a break. Like after fighting all the way up a cannon town and watching a sea monster get blown to hell. But there is nothing the beginning of 13 to break from, the beginning is fight two guards, cutscene, walk three steps, cutscene. And when most reviewers state they had to open up the extra stuff just to learn what the hell is going on, then I think we can label that as a failure to deliver the story.

[Ghost Lightning]

jesuno wrote...


http://www.metacriti.../critic-reviews

Here is the metacritic page for FF13. Please find this sweeping praise for its dialogue, becuase I only looked at the scores that were 90 or above, and only one person actually admitted to liking while most brushed over it and several commented on it being poor or cringe worthy.

You just stated the perfect examples of using a cutscene, a break. Like after fighting all the way up a cannon town and watching a sea monster get blown to hell. But there is nothing the beginning of 13 to break from, the beginning is fight two guards, cutscene, walk three steps, cutscene. And when most reviewers state they had to open up the extra stuff just to learn what the hell is going on, then I think we can label that as a failure to deliver the story.

The IGN Review

The Game informer Review

Both praise the voice acting.

And like I said, it's personal preference. Not everyone needs the gameplay to presentation ratio to be 99/1 in favor of gameplay. I didn't go into the game expecting to play the cutscenes. I went in for the narrative. The fact that the battle system is one of the best and most frantic in any FF was a wonderful plus. And I was more than happy to look past the linearity that so many people cared so much about because I was enjoying the story too much to care.

Modifié par Ghost Lightning, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:52 .

[jesuno]

Ghost Lightning wrote...

jesuno wrote...


http://www.metacriti.../critic-reviews

Here is the metacritic page for FF13. Please find this sweeping praise for its dialogue, becuase I only looked at the scores that were 90 or above, and only one person actually admitted to liking while most brushed over it and several commented on it being poor or cringe worthy.

You just stated the perfect examples of using a cutscene, a break. Like after fighting all the way up a cannon town and watching a sea monster get blown to hell. But there is nothing the beginning of 13 to break from, the beginning is fight two guards, cutscene, walk three steps, cutscene. And when most reviewers state they had to open up the extra stuff just to learn what the hell is going on, then I think we can label that as a failure to deliver the story.

The IGN Review

The Game informer Review

Both praise the voice acting.

And like I said, it's personal preference. Not everyone needs the gameplay to presentation ratio to be 99/1 in favor of gameplay. I didn't go into the game expecting to play the cutscenes. I went in for the narrative. The fact that the battle system is one of the best and most frantic in any FF was a wonderful plus. And I was more than happy to look past the linearity that so many people cared so much about because I was enjoying the story too much to care.

Did you really just use Game Informer, the site where this came from:

"The only key area where FF XIII betrays fans – and this is heartbreaking
for me to admit – is the story. The narrative makes a number of small
missteps, but they all tie back to one larger issue: the characters. The
game is largely driven by the personalities of the six main party
members – their goals, mindsets, and personal revelations.
Unfortunately, these revelations feel extremely rushed and artificial,
forced by the necessity of moving the plot forward. These moments range
from insipid to obvious, like “I was fighting because I was too scared
to face my fate,” or “I didn’t tell anyone this piece of critical
information because I thought they wouldn’t like me.” Periodic updates
on the characters’ vacillating attitudes are poor substitutes for a
clear long-term goal and a compelling antagonist. Even the Final Fantasy
series’ B-squad bosses, like Zeromus and Necron, make more sense than
your ultimate adversary in FF XIII.

A good story is of paramount importance in a role-playing game, but the
fact that FF XIII’s other elements compensate for its disappointing
narrative is a testament to the overall quality of the experience."

Where does that say anything positive about the narrative? Just because people have personal perferences doesn't mean that they can't be bad. Some people prefer to save their urine in 2 liter coke bottle, doesn't mean that these things are good to decorate your house with.

[Ghost Lightning]

jesuno wrote...

Where does that say anything positive about the narrative? Just because people have personal perferences doesn't mean that they can't be bad. Some people prefer to save their urine in 2 liter coke bottle, doesn't mean that these things are good to decorate your house with.

Well then by that logic I guess it's majority rule right? Or maybe everyone can just agree to disagree?

I don't know what you're trying to say. Cause based on critical and commercial numbers XIII was a great game. With an above average aggragated score and over six million copies sold. Now I don't think that makes a game great. I think it's personal preference that makes us decide what games we think are great. Where some reviewrs and fans disliked the narrative, others loved it. My personal favorite review for XIII was the Games Radar review because barring one point, I agreed with almost everything that person felt about the game. But then, you have others that hated it. My thing is that there is no bar by which every story and every character is measured by, otherwise things would be very boring. XIII is very different from the older FF games, and I personally like that. I loved VI and VII but XIII is my favorite. Does that make my preference bad? I played those older games and liked them, so I must have some sense right? I understand that you don't like XIII and your reasons are logical and understandable. But some of the very things you hated about it are things I loved about it. So I can respect your opinion and agree to disagree.

/rant.

[The Love Runner]

So, I wonder if time travel will be the main feature of the game, like XIII-2. Or if it will introduce a new gameplay feature that hasn't been in the series before.