24 réponses à ce sujet

[PJ156]

I've been reading Tchos's posts with interest as I guess we most of us have.

I don't aim this at anybody ... but I ask the question.

What is worth doing and what is not.

I see two schools of thought one is a group of people who are testing thier own skill with the toolset. Pushing it to see what they could do, what the toolset can do. Another that says, hang that there is my story I hope you enjoy it.

As the community matures I think we are drifting into the former (though I am firmly in the latter). So what I am thinking is ... is what we do worth the effort?

For instance:

Dwarfs sitting on stools, why waste precious hours in the toolset? - who cares? let them stand, they have legs. Short legs, granted but they are definately there.

People sitting on horses? - we did okay before, why do we need it now?

Now I don't mean to be confrontational here. I can see the joy of creating something in the toolset and of showing that it can do so much more than the OC devs did with it. So I am not pokeing any one. I do have my own anwser to this question, chances are it is the same as the consensus.

I just thought it worth asking.

PJ 

[kamal_]

Make whatever makes you happy. If you don't want to do something, don't.

Modifié par kamal_, 06 juillet 2012 - 12:37 .

[Rolo Kipp]

<painting a picture...>

Short: Yes. =)

A bit longer: It depends entirely on what you want to do. If, like me, you belong to the second camp and you are using NwN(1 or 2) to tell a story simply because it is the best medium for presenting the story without devoting the next few years to a full degree course in game design, then it is totally worth it because your *story* is worth it :-) (in your case PJ, I mean that literally :-)

If, on the other hand, like me, you really love to push the boundaries of the engine and see how far you can make the gfx cards squeal, then it is totally worth it because 1) so much ground-work has been done already and 2) there are so many cool people here to help out that it just feels really good when you come up with something new.

Hehe. I win! *snoopy dance*

<...with words>

[Alupinu]

I remember reading a post awhile back about somebody try to script a way to make doors work without opening them. And all I could think of was “…have we become that lazy?”

[henesua]

Is it worth it? I'm of the inclination that if one must ask this question I'd say, "no". But I don't have to ask that question for myself because I enjoy the process.

Its not like making games adds to the world in a grand way. Its not really worth killing yourself over. But it is fun. So if you get enjoyment out of it, you've gotten what you should. And if others enjoy your work well thats double. Not only are they happy, but you receive some recognition too.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

For the most part, the tinkering with scripts and whatnot is just another way of playing the game. On the other hand, that kind of obsessive attention to detail is also an important part of the artistic process, doing things the long-hard-stupid way because that's just how it's done.

[Bardil2]

Yes, provided that you enjoy it, it's worth it.. And if sharing what you do with others provides them with entertainment and enjoyment then it makes it even more worthwhile. Don't think it matters on what level you do things -- pushing the toolsets to see what's possible or using them in a basic way to plot your adventure.

[Omega27]

Alupinu wrote...

I remember reading a post awhile back about somebody try to script a way to make doors work without opening them. And all I could think of was “…have we become that lazy?”

Actually that only sounds interesting, because i'd like to see how that works plus would go well with an Huanted House theme i really wouldnt care to much for it in all parts of my mod.

[Omega27]

PJ, I strongly agree with Rolo's point.

It isn't really a question, i like to look at it like this. If we didn't have those who like to push the limits, then those of us who like to use the toolset to create fun, and crafty worlds wouldn't have such a high variety like we do now. So for them i say grats for making story telling more fun for us

[MokahTGS]

 If I were to recount the countless hours spent on small things, I would probably cry.  I know in Vertex, for NWN I spent a lot of time on little things like sound placement, atmospheric additions like custom poetry books, and letters.  I even put in an NPC that has nothing to do with the story, just atmosphere and a funny way to spend your gold getting "professionally" kicked in the backside.  I spent hours fussing over the Grumpy Strumpet tavern for the Halloween Mod and I remember a particularly vexing bug that consumed a week of dev time that just dealt with sitting.

Why?  I'm not sure.  I can say this:  If I made you smile, then it was worth it.  NWN modding is not about production anymore.  It's about the process.  There isn't enough people playing to make it "worth it" even on a good day.

Modifié par MokahTGS, 06 juillet 2012 - 04:41 .

[PJ156]

MokahTGS wrote...
NWN modding is not about production anymore.  It's about the process.  There isn't enough people playing to make it "worth it" even on a good day.

Somewhat depressing summary of the situation but concisely put.

I do think it's worth it for the reasons given above but also, for me, for the joy of creating something, while solving some fairly complex problems along the way and then giving that away for others to have.

Personally the thought that 100 people now have my latest offering on thier PC and they are seeing my concepts and areas on thier PC gives me the biggest buzz of all.

I just wish they would come back and vote

PJ

[Quixal]

I know this may ring hollow coming from someone who just consumes the work of others here and one who has been absent a lot lately due to computer woes at that, but I have to say I really appreciate the work you folks do. Further, I notice the attention to detail and it always makes me smile.

Apologies for the off-topic intrusion but I thought it needed to be said.

Cheers, folks.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

I enjoy building something that tells a story. When my story requires something that isn't in the toolset already then I usually modify my story to fit rather than using custom content. Spending a few hours (or days) developing a script that will solve a significant problem or save me development time down the road is, I think, a good investment. Beyond that I try to keep in mind that if I am building something forever then no one will be able to play it, so at some point you have to draw the line.

Whatever gets you through the night is all right.
- John Lennon

[Omega27]

Kal does have a point, keep people waiting forever you will lose their attention by the time it's out you might not have as many people to play.

Lol, i've recently made that mistake, solved it )

-SN: i think i got off topic as well -.-

[rjshae]

Yes, I pretty much echo the sentiments above; do what you enjoy. Adding little details can be both fun and helpful in bringing your module to life. But if you are going to focus on some fine detail, its better if that can be used widely throughout your module. An example is the one given: "Dwarfs sitting on stools, why waste precious hours in the toolset?" Well because you can use that throughout the module in any area where somebody is sitting. Pubs, parks, temples, street benches, you name it. Once you have a solution, just use it over and over again.

Personally I've found that I enjoy working on a sandbox-style module. I can expand on it to my heart's content and not have to push myself to meet some self-imposed release deadline. Yes there's a growing plot, but it's fit to the campaign setting rather than vice versa. So in that sense it's as was mentioned earlier; like building/playing a game as a DM. I can keep tweaking each little bit until I'm happy with it. It's the DM-style creation of a game world that's become enjoyable to me.

Modifié par rjshae, 06 juillet 2012 - 08:54 .

[Clyordes]

Interesting thread.

Personally, I tend toward the view mentioned that creating stuff with the toolset is another way of playing the game - I used to be the same with D&D way back when too - players were scarce, but I really enjoyed reading or writing adventures for when I could get together with my gaming mates - creating classes, monsters, changing things in published adventures - pretty much all the things I still get a kick out of when I'm playing around in the toolset today.

As for whether there's enough people out there still playing to make it worthwile publishing our adventures - Wizard's Apprentice 2 seems to be doing pretty well - but we all know NWN2 is realistically past its peak in terms of player base. Always makes me wonder though - how many people never play anything but the official campaigns?

What a ton of stuff they're missing out on!

And why the publishers never commissioned more 'official' custom content that they could encourage the community to use to keep the game alive?

Regardless - back on topic - just seeing a couple of dozen people take the time to find & download each adventure I make feels pretty worthwile and seeing two of my adventures hitting the 1000 download mark is mind blowing .

However, in some ways, its not - quite - as rewarding as playing through the adventure I've spent months creating & knowing:

I made that.

:-)

Cly.

[Dorateen]

PJ156 wrote...

What is worth doing and what is not.

I see two schools of thought one is a group of people who are testing thier own skill with the toolset. Pushing it to see what they could do, what the toolset can do. Another that says, hang that there is my story I hope you enjoy it.

For instance:

Dwarfs sitting on stools, why waste precious hours in the toolset? - who cares? let them stand, they have legs. Short legs, granted but they are definately there.

Well, I guess I fall into the second category, taking a somewhat minimalist approach to constructing a campaign. It's not that I don't appreciate the little details, and I am always amazed by the clever use of placeables that builders like you, PJ, and Kamal and others come up with. But for one thing, I am limited in the time I have to spend in the toolset and I do want to finish a project before the end of the year. Books for walls and floors and tabletops? I can't even imagine playing around with such endless possibilities.

Having said that, it is fun to watch what others have done and get inspired to be a little more creative. But for the most part, I'm looking to present a straight-up DnD style adventure with less consideration for bells and whistles. Another factor for me, I think, is that I grew up playing cRPGs that did not have such finely detailed visuals, or voice-overs, or things like that. So a bland dungeon tileset actually has a bit of old-school charm for me.

Dwarfs sitting on stools, indeed. Everyone knows that stools are meant to be used as weapons in a bar room brawl.

Harumph!

Modifié par Dorateen, 06 juillet 2012 - 07:38 .

[Dorateen]

Iveforgotmypassword wrote...

Dorateen.. I must have been writing as you were posting and I really meant to say dwarves were very hard working fine stout dependable fellows.

But of course you did.

[kevL]

Iveforgotmypassword wrote...

However if that's what people like doing and want to do then that's up to them that's the point of the toolset it's a blank piece of paper or should I say a green screen with a red circle in the middle of it.

bingo !

[rjshae]

Iveforgotmypassword wrote...

Dorateen.. I must have been writing as you were posting and I really meant to say dwarves were very hard working fine stout dependable fellows.

Yes, they also double as a servicable projectile in a pinch. Very handy.

[Tchos]

I only saw this post just now, so forgive my lateness despite being mentioned by name. I expounded on some of the bases of my design philosophy in the diary, but I don't fit into either of the schools of thought that you propose. For instance, narrative is not the purpose of my module -- though of course it includes a great deal of narrative in the form of conversations, popup text, and NPC/object descriptions. Rather, since my purpose is to create a game, I try to allow the player to approach things from as many directions as possible. In my case, the narrative serves the player; the player does not serve the narrative. I think that's what Bob mentioned as "sandbox style".

I don't do what I do to test my toolset skill, or to learn, or to push any boundaries. I do it because I want my game to look a particular way, and behave a particular way. Exploration and spectacle is a primary motivator for me in games, and so I make my areas to be as different from each other as possible, while remaining aesthetically pleasing. Ideally, each location should have something interesting to see or do in it.

I agree with your sentiment that the joy of creating something and solving problems along the way is the main reason for doing this. Here, I can put in a game what I want in a game. Like Clyordes said, "I made that!"

I agree with those here who say that all the attention to detail is worth it for the artistic satisfaction of it. I have a particular idea of what I want a place to look like, and so I do my best to find ways to make it look like that. Sometimes it's a matter of creative use of existing placeables, but I tend to prefer using building blocks like in BCK, which I can specially texture as I like.

And I as a player certainly appreciate that detail when I see it in others, like in Mokah's Grumpy Strumpet tavern. I like a world that looks like it makes sense, and draws me in. That, in addition to spectacle, is my reason for detail.

I'm with Bob when it comes to things like the chairs. Solve once, use anywhere. That's why I take the time to make my scripts "generic", in such a way that I can apply them to any object or NPC for a purpose, and they either work just like that, or I can cause them to do specific things by setting variables on the object rather than creating a new script. These I can use anywhere. Not just in the current module, but in any module. A lot of the things I've been doing (more than the scripts) have this purpose in mind. I'm also making heavy use of the ability to save property sets, where I can select sets of scripts and sets of properties for various situations, to quickly load on any NPC/object. It's worth it because it saves time on all other similar situations.

Anyway, I suppose the short answer is that if I didn't think it was worth it, I wouldn't be doing it. It's a hobby, much like building models, I think.

[Dann-J]

I've only ever created modules or custom content for one person (hint: it's not Jesus). If I choose to release something and others find it fun to play or useful in their own projects, then so be it. However making complete strangers on the other side of the world like me is well down on my list of things to accomplish (somewhere below "learn the art of self-scarification").

I start with a very basic storyline (which is usually unrecognisable by the time I'm finished), then start to build the world it happens in. Many times I change the story to suit the localities. A bit of research into the area of Faerun I'm setting it in usually adds the details. Then I start to think about what features are necessary for the basic storyline, and what features I've encountered in other games I'd like to see that are otherwise missing from the game. Those needs usually determine what I'm willing to spend time developing, and how much of that time I'm willing to spend on it.

Occasionally I'll have a cool idea that is looking for a reason to exist (like riding sharks). I'll spend a little bit of time seeing if it's possible, but ultimately I won't waste too much time on something that I don't really have a use for. But you never know when one of your old preliminary experiments might come in useful for a future module (and give you the excuse to refine things further).

Modifié par DannJ, 11 juillet 2012 - 02:58 .