109 réponses à ce sujet

[Pantegana]

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

Pantegana wrote...

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

the starchild is not a liar. it is a program. created by organics with a purpose.

Now you sound like the Pope

 i am telling you what the game tells us.. assuming that the starchild is a liar is putting your own spin to the story.
the starchild being a liar is not an option.

I'm doing what I'd do if I was in Shepard's shoes. Mom's taught me not to trust glowing strangers who offer me sensational deals.

[darkpassenger2342]

Legbiter wrote...

Synthesis is a monstrous evil that kinda shocks me every time I contemplate it.

calling it evil is adding your own perspective to it.
its far from evil the way i see it.
it is what the creators of the reapers, not the reapers themselves, intended.

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

Legbiter wrote...

Synthesis is a monstrous evil that kinda shocks me every time I contemplate it.

The epilogue states otherwise. 

Synthesis makes no sense, but i don't see where people get this idea it somehow destroys all life or makes evrything horrible. 

EDI painted it as pretty positive, and that's really the only evidence you have to go on. 

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

Pantegana wrote...

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

Pantegana wrote...

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

the starchild is not a liar. it is a program. created by organics with a purpose.

Now you sound like the Pope

 i am telling you what the game tells us.. assuming that the starchild is a liar is putting your own spin to the story.
the starchild being a liar is not an option.

I'm doing what I'd do if I was in Shepard's shoes. Mom's taught me not to trust glowing strangers who offer me sensational deals.

Then you pick refuse and ensure the destruction of you and your mom? He could be lying about destruction and control too. 

[The Angry One]

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

calling it evil is adding your own perspective to it.
its far from evil the way i see it.

*looks at husk avatar*

Not sure if serious.
You can sugar coat it all you want thought, it's a gross act of evil, a violation of every living thing to promote an agenda.

it is what the creators of the reapers, not the reapers themselves, intended.

a) This is headcanon
 The Catalyst states that "we" (the Reapers) tried synthesis before, long after the cycles began
c) You know, the creators made this insane AI with no failsafes to begin with. I don't CARE what they want.

[The Angry One]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

The epilogue states otherwise. 

Synthesis makes no sense, but i don't see where people get this idea it somehow destroys all life or makes evrything horrible. 

EDI painted it as pretty positive, and that's really the only evidence you have to go on. 

Compare what EDI says in the epilogue to what EDI says throughout the game and tell me that there's no brainwashing/indoctrination involved.

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

The Angry One wrote...

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

calling it evil is adding your own perspective to it.
its far from evil the way i see it.

*looks at husk avatar*

Not sure if serious.
You can sugar coat it all you want thought, it's a gross act of evil, a violation of every living thing to promote an agenda.

it is what the creators of the reapers, not the reapers themselves, intended.

a) This is headcanon
 The Catalyst states that "we" (the Reapers) tried synthesis before, long after the cycles began
c) You know, the creators made this insane AI with no failsafes to begin with. I don't CARE what they want.

What agenda does synthesis promote exactly? 

[The Angry One]

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

the starchild is not a liar. it is a program. created by organics with a purpose.
enemy is a relative term. you are offered the choice to no longer be enemies.
synthesis is a treaty, a marraige between infinitely warring kingdoms.

It is an AI. AIs can lie.
Synthesis is not a treaty, synthesis is unconditional surrender of all life to the Reaper ideal.

[The Angry One]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

What agenda does synthesis promote exactly? 

That differences are bad. That synthetics must be forced to "understand". That the only way we'll get along is to be made the same.

[Ring1]

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

we cannot assume anything, the starchild tells us the cycle will repeat. he knows better than we do, he was witness to the cycles. the cycle is
Life > creation> death
 anything after that is speculating
 when he says the cycle will continue hes not doing it with ulterior motives.
we know this because if that was true we would have other choices, but we do not.
no the war reconciliation b/w quarians and geth will not last because they can never understand each other.
the starchild tells us this.

Assumptions are all we have for the future.

I will not argue that the catalyst does indeed believe that the cycle is that organics will create synthetics which will kill organics. But if organics do not create synthetics then organics cannot be killled by synthetics.

Like I said with what the galaxy has experienced with the Geth would they neccessarly overturn the centuries long ban on the research of AI?

From what it seems with the Geth isolating themselves organics do not need to create synthetics to be productive and survive.

Even though the catalyst has seen countless cycles and synthetics were a problem in each cycle could the cycles not be compared to the current cycle and the Geth? Did all the other cycles have the opportunity to destroy the synthetics and essecentally have a redo?

[darkpassenger2342]

yes, the husk avatar was for fun..
i figured if everyone was going to tell me i was evil for liking synthesis,
f it ill be evil then.
i only wish i could find a green eyed avatar........

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

The Angry One wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

The epilogue states otherwise. 

Synthesis makes no sense, but i don't see where people get this idea it somehow destroys all life or makes evrything horrible. 

EDI painted it as pretty positive, and that's really the only evidence you have to go on. 

Compare what EDI says in the epilogue to what EDI says throughout the game and tell me that there's no brainwashing/indoctrination involved.

That's totally not grasping at straws. 

>Edi had a different tone in what she says
>Edi was just made half organic
>Edi's brainwashed. 

There is 0 evidence Edi is in anyway being controlled or anyone else for that matter. The Epilogues show Synthesis ending up the same way control does except  everyone has a green tint. Zaeed still retires,Jack still visits the graveyard, and the Krogan couplestill have their adorable little daughter. If they were being controlled or were brainwashed you would think things would have turned out differently. 

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

The Angry One wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

What agenda does synthesis promote exactly? 

That differences are bad. That synthetics must be forced to "understand". That the only way we'll get along is to be made the same.

That's what starchild thinks but not necessarily what the shepard who chooses synthesis thinks. Just because they agree on a solution does not mean they have the same reasons for doing so. The major upside of synthesis to me is that you do not have to eliminate the entire race of the geth, and don't have to submit to controlling the reapers. 
And races will still have their unique cultures/idealogies/and body structures. They may all be composed of a mix of organic and synthetic materials, but that does not make them all completley homogenized in the same way a Dog is not the same as a cat as they are both purley organic. 

[Pantegana]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Pantegana wrote...

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

Pantegana wrote...

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

the starchild is not a liar. it is a program. created by organics with a purpose.

Now you sound like the Pope

 i am telling you what the game tells us.. assuming that the starchild is a liar is putting your own spin to the story.
the starchild being a liar is not an option.

I'm doing what I'd do if I was in Shepard's shoes. Mom's taught me not to trust glowing strangers who offer me sensational deals.

Then you pick refuse and ensure the destruction of you and your mom? He could be lying about destruction and control too. 

Why would I pick refuse?
I pick destruction, I know it's weird that there's a pipe on top of the citadel that if shot kills all reapers (meh), but apparently this is the only chance to eliminate the reaper threath (since war assets are almost useless).

[Lord Goose]

So... we should just commit mass murder of mostly innocent species just because some angry orphans would be happy?

Wha. Of all pro-Destroy arguments it is a real gem.

[darkpassenger2342]

it doesnt eliminate the reaper threat, it sets organics back to zero and they will create and destroy themselves until someone makes reapers again.....
lol its just a waste of an unclear amount of cycles for short term  battle victory in a much larger war. war against ourselves.
 it also destroys the knowledge they possess and the ancient races they absorbed.
total waste.

Modifié par darkpassenger2342, 07 juillet 2012 - 09:35 .

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

Pantegana wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Pantegana wrote...

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

Pantegana wrote...

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

the starchild is not a liar. it is a program. created by organics with a purpose.

Now you sound like the Pope

 i am telling you what the game tells us.. assuming that the starchild is a liar is putting your own spin to the story.
the starchild being a liar is not an option.

I'm doing what I'd do if I was in Shepard's shoes. Mom's taught me not to trust glowing strangers who offer me sensational deals.

Then you pick refuse and ensure the destruction of you and your mom? He could be lying about destruction and control too. 

Why would I pick refuse?
I pick destruction, I know it's weird that there's a pipe on top of the citadel that if shot kills all reapers (meh), but apparently this is the only chance to eliminate the reaper threath (since war assets are almost useless).

If you believe the catalyst is lying about one option why would he not lie about the other 2?

For all you know shooting that tube turns the galaxy into husks and ends the cycle.  Refuse is the only way you don't have to trust what he says. 

Modifié par Mysterious Stranger 0.0, 07 juillet 2012 - 09:36 .

[Pantegana]

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

it doesnt eliminate the reaper threat, it sets organics back to zero and they will create and destroy themselves until someone makes reapers again.....
lol its just a waste of an unclear amount of cycles for short term  battle victory in a much larger war. war against ourselves.

Yeah, because you KNOW they'll do it and you KNOW because the Catalyst told you so and there's no alternate solution to the reapers...because the catalys SAYS so.
It's like discussing with...the catalyst!

[The Angry One]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...


That's totally not grasping at straws. 

>Edi had a different tone in what she says
>Edi was just made half organic
>Edi's brainwashed. 

There is 0 evidence Edi is in anyway being controlled or anyone else for that matter. The Epilogues show Synthesis ending up the same way control does except  everyone has a green tint. Zaeed still retires,Jack still visits the graveyard, and the Krogan couplestill have their adorable little daughter. If they were being controlled or were brainwashed you would think things would have turned out differently. 

Why would they? The indoctrinated still follow their personalities and personal desires.
The Illusive Man still smokes and drinks. Proof of no indoctrination!!1

Sorry, you can't ignore how characters act during the game because everybody is a Stepford smiler in the ending.

[darkpassenger2342]

we have no alternative to believing the catalyst, therefore we must believe him.
 well, there is one.
 give up and die.
have fun with that choice.

Modifié par darkpassenger2342, 07 juillet 2012 - 09:43 .

[Pantegana]

"Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding."

[Ring1]

darkpassenger2342 wrote...

it doesnt eliminate the reaper threat, it sets organics back to zero and they will create and destroy themselves until someone makes reapers again.....
lol its just a waste of an unclear amount of cycles for short term  battle victory in a much larger war. war against ourselves.
 it also destroys the knowledge they possess and the ancient races they absorbed.
total waste.

Ring1 wrote...
...
Doesn"t the council have restrictions in place about the research into AI?
...
It seems instead that the restrictions on AI research may prevent the
re-creation of the Geth or other synthetics and that would break this supposed
continuous cycle. It seems that the galaxy instead would be set to the point
right before the point of the original creation of the Geth with the knowledge
of what could potentially happen.
...

Ring1 wrote...
...
I will not argue that the catalyst does indeed believe that the cycle is that
organics will create synthetics which will kill organics. But if organics do
not create synthetics then organics cannot be killed by synthetics.
...
From what it seems with the Geth isolating themselves organics do not need to
create synthetics to be productive and survive.

Even though the catalyst has seen countless cycles and synthetics were a
problem in each cycle could the cycles not be compared to the current cycle and
the Geth? Did all the other cycles have the opportunity to destroy the
synthetics and essentially have a redo?

I cut out some of my sentences to streamline the process but does this not answer that it is entirely possible that destroy could be a solution to the problem?

For your new point about destroy destroying the knowledge of all the other harvested civilizations. Are all the civilizations harvested around the same time? How different could their technology be from ours both their and our technology is based off the reapers?

Modifié par Ring1, 07 juillet 2012 - 09:45 .

[BatmanPWNS]

Who cares? I mean Shepard got laid and that's all that matters, right?

[darkpassenger2342]

@ring
destroy wipes out everything and restarts the cycle of death.
no it is only a temporary solution.
the starchild tells us this when he explains the cycle.
 the cycle starts over if you destroy the reapers, but the reapers are necessary to stop organics from destroying themselves. it is inevitable.
as for the destroyed civilizations how can you know the answer if you destroy it/them??
they were species worthy to advance forward, so they were preserved. they were by context different than the current races. more advanced? who knows? if you destroy the data, they dont in your ending..
 they have no warnings, shepard is dead and only she knows about the cycle....
dead shepard cant stop the cycle from happening again.
 it is inevitable.
the starchild tells us this.

Modifié par darkpassenger2342, 07 juillet 2012 - 09:52 .

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

The Angry One wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...


That's totally not grasping at straws. 

>Edi had a different tone in what she says
>Edi was just made half organic
>Edi's brainwashed. 

There is 0 evidence Edi is in anyway being controlled or anyone else for that matter. The Epilogues show Synthesis ending up the same way control does except  everyone has a green tint. Zaeed still retires,Jack still visits the graveyard, and the Krogan couplestill have their adorable little daughter. If they were being controlled or were brainwashed you would think things would have turned out differently. 

Why would they? The indoctrinated still follow their personalities and personal desires.
The Illusive Man still smokes and drinks. Proof of no indoctrination!!1

Sorry, you can't ignore how characters act during the game because everybody is a Stepford smiler in the ending.

Grasping at straws. If Bioware wanted to give the indication that synthesis had some ill effect they would have shown it. Instead they show every character acting the way the would have should another option been chosen.  it's very hard to argue they're brainwashed when everyone acts exactly the same. We Saw TIM do things that pointed to indoctrination, infact it's eventually just flat out stated. we don't see anything poiting toward any character being indoctrinated by synthesis. 

All evidence shows that synthesis is a "Disney ending" and with nothing to the contrary. Synthesis if it were applicable to the real world may be a horrible idea, but in mass effect it's just a happy ending albiet a bit creepy.