461 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Xilizhra wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Well, given the news that Keiji's Grey Box is now sapient in the Synthesis ending..... Yikes. Implications unpleasant.

How are they unpleasant? It's glorious. Not only is life far easier to restore, but it can be restored in a form that takes up relatively little room and consumes few resources, which at least buys time away from the logistical issues of immortality. Not only that, if Shepard has a greybox, she can come back too.

True. I just realized that if Liara used her "gift" to actually record all of Shepard's memories, like a snapshot, then these could be uploaded into a grey box given space magic Asari mind melding. Then with Synthesis being hit, the gray box becomes sapient, and then afterward, they get a robot body for Shepard, and install the gray box as the brain. Boom! New Shepard. She's back!

Take that name off that wall!

[ghost9191]

not the same though, old person is dead, new is just a copy

[General User]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Well, given the news that Keiji's Grey Box is now sapient in the Synthesis ending..... Yikes. Implications unpleasant.

How are they unpleasant? It's glorious. Not only is life far easier to restore, but it can be restored in a form that takes up relatively little room and consumes few resources, which at least buys time away from the logistical issues of immortality. Not only that, if Shepard has a greybox, she can come back too.

True. I just realized that if Liara used her "gift" to actually record all of Shepard's memories, like a snapshot, then these could be uploaded into a grey box given space magic Asari mind melding. Then with Synthesis being hit, the gray box becomes sapient, and then afterward, they get a robot body for Shepard, and install the gray box as the brain. Boom! New Shepard. She's back!

Take that name off that wall!

New Shepard?  I thought that Liara was in love with the old one.

Modifié par General User, 06 juillet 2012 - 09:45 .

[Malditor]

General User wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Well, given the news that Keiji's Grey Box is now sapient in the Synthesis ending..... Yikes. Implications unpleasant.

How are they unpleasant? It's glorious. Not only is life far easier to restore, but it can be restored in a form that takes up relatively little room and consumes few resources, which at least buys time away from the logistical issues of immortality. Not only that, if Shepard has a greybox, she can come back too.

True. I just realized that if Liara used her "gift" to actually record all of Shepard's memories, like a snapshot, then these could be uploaded into a grey box given space magic Asari mind melding. Then with Synthesis being hit, the gray box becomes sapient, and then afterward, they get a robot body for Shepard, and install the gray box as the brain. Boom! New Shepard. She's back!

Take that name off that wall!

New Shepard?  I thought that Liara was in love with the old one.

Reminds me of the scene from Avatar "we can save everything that is you in this body"....

[Xilizhra]

not the same though, old person is dead, new is just a copy

Not true, but even if it was, Liara's been there/done that.

New Shepard? I thought that Liara was in love with the old one.

Either it's all the same Shepard, or this is the third Shepard.

[General User]

Malditor wrote...

Reminds me of the scene from Avatar "we can save everything that is you in this body"....

Reminds me of a scene from SG-1.  "As much as I would do anything to hold him again... I could never go through losing him again."

Xilizhra wrote...

Either it's all the same Shepard, or this is the third Shepard.

This would be the third Shepard.

[Xilizhra]

This would be the third Shepard.

Given the continuity of memories, I'll take the view that it's all the same Shepard.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Malditor wrote...

Not really, if almost everyone in the universe is ok with genetic or cybernetic augmentation that is a major contributing factor to whether they would be against something genetically altering them.
People today are very closed about body modifications,

Again, body modification itself is not the contention. I'm all for modification--as long as I get to choose what I want and don't, and as long as my decision to modify myself doesn't force modification on someone who doesn't want it. Also remember that synthesis doesn't just affect advanced life--it affects all species, spacefaring or no.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

This would be the third Shepard.

Given the continuity of memories, I'll take the view that it's all the same Shepard.

And if you have two copies at once?  Are they all still the same Shepard?

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This would be the third Shepard.

Given the continuity of memories, I'll take the view that it's all the same Shepard.

And if you have two copies at once?  Are they all still the same Shepard?

Surreally so, but yes. Though they'd start to develop in different directions, and that just seems like an unnecessary can of worms to open for a lover.

[Malditor]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Malditor wrote...

Not really, if almost everyone in the universe is ok with genetic or cybernetic augmentation that is a major contributing factor to whether they would be against something genetically altering them.
People today are very closed about body modifications,

Again, body modification itself is not the contention. I'm all for modification--as long as I get to choose what I want and don't, and as long as my decision to modify myself doesn't force modification on someone who doesn't want it. Also remember that synthesis doesn't just affect advanced life--it affects all species, spacefaring or no.

People modify others all the time without consent. Kids have to get their shots, Jewish parents, and some other parents, circumsize their sons, mothers pierce their daughters' ears. However, these are acceptable because it's "normal". That's what I'm contending, we don't know what's "normal" when it comes to modifications in the ME universe.

Modifié par Malditor, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:04 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This would be the third Shepard.

Given the continuity of memories, I'll take the view that it's all the same Shepard.

And if you have two copies at once?  Are they all still the same Shepard?

Surreally so, but yes. Though they'd start to develop in different directions, and that just seems like an unnecessary can of worms to open for a lover.

Perhaps Liara could make an e-copy of herself.  That way there'd be as many Liaras as there were Shepards.  Then, just quick phenobarbital cocktail to tie up the loose end and everyone's happy.

Modifié par General User, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:10 .

[Xilizhra]

Perhaps Liara could make an e-copy of herself. That way there'd be as many Liaras as there were Shepards. Then, just quick phenobarbital cocktail to tie up the loose end and everyone's happy.

What if two Liaras like the same Shepard? The only way this might work out is if they all became some kind of mutual harem, and that'd make children extremely awkward.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Perhaps Liara could make an e-copy of herself. That way there'd be as many Liaras as there were Shepards. Then, just quick phenobarbital cocktail to tie up the loose end and everyone's happy.

What if two Liaras like the same Shepard? The only way this might work out is if they all became some kind of mutual harem, and that'd make children extremely awkward.

If two e-Liara's liked the same e-Shepard, then you'd just make a copy of that particular e-Shepard.  It'd be the same e-person, right?

Modifié par General User, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:14 .

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Perhaps Liara could make an e-copy of herself. That way there'd be as many Liaras as there were Shepards. Then, just quick phenobarbital cocktail to tie up the loose end and everyone's happy.

What if two Liaras like the same Shepard? The only way this might work out is if they all became some kind of mutual harem, and that'd make children extremely awkward.

If two e-Liara's liked the same e-Shepard, then you'd just make a copy of that particular e-Shepard.  It'd be the same e-person, right?

Ultimately, it's just easier to only have there be one of each.

[Saans Shadow]

It's obvious that alot of people hate synthesis.  You see all the reasons: it's wrong, it's immoral, it's unethical, it violates a persons rights, it makes everybody the "same" (i'll explain the quotes in a minute), etc etc.  Let me ask you some questions.  Have you ever fought a battle of equality? Have you had someone look at you and say you are wrong? I don't mean "oh thats the wrong answer" I mean YOU as a person, a living human being is wrong, everything about who and what you are is WRONG.  I have. I have by random people, by friends, by family.  Why you ask? I'm gay. Always have been, always will be. Do you know what it's like to have your entire existence accused of being invalid?  Why am I telling you this in this thread?  Because it relates to why I will always, ALWAYS pick synthesis over ANY of the other choices.  It's taken me a while to figure out why synthesis is my choice and why I cling to it so.  It brings equality to the galaxy.  I don't mean it makes everybody the "same", it doesn't make them clones or zombies or copies. IT. MAKES. THEM. EQUAL.  It gives everybody common ground to stand on but allows them to retain personal identity. Racial, gender, sexual orientation identity.  ALL of it. It's not some horrible plot to tell people that they have to be the "same" to get along but it does send of message that if people were to treat everybody as equals there is a strong possibility of everlasting peace and prosperity.  If synthesis where to happen to our world and all of a sudden I started getting treated like any other person instead of getting strange looks when I walk down the street or made fun of because of how I act or holding hands with a bf, I would WELCOME it without question!  You call me wrong, FINE.  You think i'm immoral, FINE.  I'm just sick of how people are treating pro-snyths when some of us have a damn good for reason for our BELIEFS for it! <3:wizard:<3:wizard:<3

Modifié par Saans Shadow, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:26 .

[djarlaks10]

Saans Shadow wrote...

It's obvious that alot of people hate synthesis.  You see all the reasons: it's wrong, it's immoral, it's unethical, it violates a persons rights, it makes everybody the "same" (i'll explain the quotes in a minute), etc etc.  Let me ask you some questions.  Have you ever fought a battle of equality? Have you had someone look at you and say you are wrong? I don't mean "oh thats the wrong answer" I mean YOU as a person, a living human being is wrong, everything about who and what you are is WRONG.  I have. I have by random people, by friends, by family.  Why you ask? I'm gay. Always have been, always will be. Do you know what it's like to have your entire existence accused of being invalid?  Why am I telling you this in this thread?  Because it relates to why I will always, ALWAYS pick synthesis over ANY of the other choices.  It's taken me a while to figure out why synthesis is my choice and why I cling to it so.  It brings equality to the galaxy.  I don't mean it makes everybody the "same", it doesn't make them clones or zombies or copies. IT. MAKES. THEM. EQUAL.  It gives everybody common ground to stand on but allows them to retain personal identity. Racial, gender, sexual orientation identity.  ALL of it. It's not some horrible plot to tell people that they have to be the "same" to get along but it does send of message that if people were to treat everybody as equals there is a strong possibility of everlasting peace and prosperity.  If synthesis where to happen to our world and all of a sudden I started getting treated like any other person instead of getting strange looks when I walk down the street or made fun of because of how I act or holding hands with a bf, I would WELCOME it without question!  You call me wrong, FINE.  You think i'm immoral, FINE.  I'm just sick of how people are treating pro-snyths when some of us have a damn good for reason for our BELIEFS for it! <3:wizard:<3:wizard:<3

I can't believe I've actually read all of this (and yes, I'm one of those guys who makes fun of gay people. Sometimes), but to me it looks like you contradict yourself. At first you say that synthesis will make everyone equal and then you say that it will allow everyone to "retain personal identity". So, if I retain my personal identity, then how would glowing eyes stop me from making jokes about gay people (nothing personal, it's just an example you mentioned so I'm gonna use it as well). But anyway, everyone is brainwashed and is happily chatting with Harbringer and Jack the Brute, so it doesn't matter. Destroy all the way.

Modifié par djarlaks10, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:18 .

[Saans Shadow]

djarlaks10 wrote...

Saans Shadow wrote...

It's obvious that alot of people hate synthesis.  You see all the reasons: it's wrong, it's immoral, it's unethical, it violates a persons rights, it makes everybody the "same" (i'll explain the quotes in a minute), etc etc.  Let me ask you some questions.  Have you ever fought a battle of equality? Have you had someone look at you and say you are wrong? I don't mean "oh thats the wrong answer" I mean YOU as a person, a living human being is wrong, everything about who and what you are is WRONG.  I have. I have by random people, by friends, by family.  Why you ask? I'm gay. Always have been, always will be. Do you know what it's like to have your entire existence accused of being invalid?  Why am I telling you this in this thread?  Because it relates to why I will always, ALWAYS pick synthesis over ANY of the other choices.  It's taken me a while to figure out why synthesis is my choice and why I cling to it so.  It brings equality to the galaxy.  I don't mean it makes everybody the "same", it doesn't make them clones or zombies or copies. IT. MAKES. THEM. EQUAL.  It gives everybody common ground to stand on but allows them to retain personal identity. Racial, gender, sexual orientation identity.  ALL of it. It's not some horrible plot to tell people that they have to be the "same" to get along but it does send of message that if people were to treat everybody as equals there is a strong possibility of everlasting peace and prosperity.  If synthesis where to happen to our world and all of a sudden I started getting treated like any other person instead of getting strange looks when I walk down the street or made fun of because of how I act or holding hands with a bf, I would WELCOME it without question!  You call me wrong, FINE.  You think i'm immoral, FINE.  I'm just sick of how people are treating pro-snyths when some of us have a damn good for reason for our BELIEFS for it! <3:wizard:<3:wizard:<3

I can't believe I've actually read all of this (and yes, I'm one of those guys who makes fun of gay people. Sometimes), but to me it looks like you contradict yourself. At first you say that synthesis will make everyone equal and then you say that it will allow everyone to "retain personal identity". So, if I retain my personal identity, then how would glowing eyes stop me from making jokes about gay people (nothing personal, it's just an example you mentioned so I'm gonna use it as well). But anyway, everyone is brainwashed and is happily chatting with Harbringer and Jack the Brute, so it doesn't matter. Destroy all the way.

Being equal to somebody doesn't mean erasing their identity to literally equal out. 

[djarlaks10]

Saans Shadow wrote...

djarlaks10 wrote...

Saans Shadow wrote...

It's obvious that alot of people hate synthesis.  You see all the reasons: it's wrong, it's immoral, it's unethical, it violates a persons rights, it makes everybody the "same" (i'll explain the quotes in a minute), etc etc.  Let me ask you some questions.  Have you ever fought a battle of equality? Have you had someone look at you and say you are wrong? I don't mean "oh thats the wrong answer" I mean YOU as a person, a living human being is wrong, everything about who and what you are is WRONG.  I have. I have by random people, by friends, by family.  Why you ask? I'm gay. Always have been, always will be. Do you know what it's like to have your entire existence accused of being invalid?  Why am I telling you this in this thread?  Because it relates to why I will always, ALWAYS pick synthesis over ANY of the other choices.  It's taken me a while to figure out why synthesis is my choice and why I cling to it so.  It brings equality to the galaxy.  I don't mean it makes everybody the "same", it doesn't make them clones or zombies or copies. IT. MAKES. THEM. EQUAL.  It gives everybody common ground to stand on but allows them to retain personal identity. Racial, gender, sexual orientation identity.  ALL of it. It's not some horrible plot to tell people that they have to be the "same" to get along but it does send of message that if people were to treat everybody as equals there is a strong possibility of everlasting peace and prosperity.  If synthesis where to happen to our world and all of a sudden I started getting treated like any other person instead of getting strange looks when I walk down the street or made fun of because of how I act or holding hands with a bf, I would WELCOME it without question!  You call me wrong, FINE.  You think i'm immoral, FINE.  I'm just sick of how people are treating pro-snyths when some of us have a damn good for reason for our BELIEFS for it! <3:wizard:<3:wizard:<3

I can't believe I've actually read all of this (and yes, I'm one of those guys who makes fun of gay people. Sometimes), but to me it looks like you contradict yourself. At first you say that synthesis will make everyone equal and then you say that it will allow everyone to "retain personal identity". So, if I retain my personal identity, then how would glowing eyes stop me from making jokes about gay people (nothing personal, it's just an example you mentioned so I'm gonna use it as well). But anyway, everyone is brainwashed and is happily chatting with Harbringer and Jack the Brute, so it doesn't matter. Destroy all the way.

Being equal to somebody doesn't mean erasing their identity to literally equal out. 

Everybody cannot be equal. Someone is still smarter than the rest, someone else is physically stronger than the rest, and they should benefit from having those abilities. If everyone is equal, then everyone would have the same level of income, thus there would be no one to do essential yet underpaid and somewhat dirty job (like, maintenance stuff), and no one will try and make some innovative stuff. In my opinion, Synthesis is some crazy utopia. You cannot build a society where everybody's equal.

Modifié par djarlaks10, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:35 .

[ADLegend21]

Baronesa wrote...

If you want to modify your DNA... have at it... just don't force YOUR decision on me.

That is the problem.

YOUR decision affects EVERYONE.

That is a violation on everyone's freedom. You violate every organic creature, plants, insects, sentient life at different stages of development... all because of your decision

Sorry, but that's mass Effect. You can wipe out four species trhought eh three games (rachni, geth, quarians, and Krogan) but that doens't seem to bother anyone, that's yoru decisions afftecting an entire race of people. Let the council die and replace it with an all human council? You just affected ALL of council space and just overhauled a governemnt that been in place for thousands of years. but that doesn't seem to bother you. ne person's decision afftecting everyone has been in this game sine day one, don't get upset that at the end it actually stayed true to wht it's always been. Shepard changing everyone's lives is pretty much what Mass Effect is all about.

[Xilizhra]

If everyone is equal, then everyone would have the same level of income, thus there would be no one to do essential yet underpaid and somewhat dirty job (like, maintenance stuff)

VIs?

[djarlaks10]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

If you want to modify your DNA... have at it... just don't force YOUR decision on me.

That is the problem.

YOUR decision affects EVERYONE.

That is a violation on everyone's freedom. You violate every organic creature, plants, insects, sentient life at different stages of development... all because of your decision

Sorry, but that's mass Effect. You can wipe out four species trhought eh three games (rachni, geth, quarians, and Krogan) but that doens't seem to bother anyone, that's yoru decisions afftecting an entire race of people. Let the council die and replace it with an all human council? You just affected ALL of council space and just overhauled a governemnt that been in place for thousands of years. but that doesn't seem to bother you. ne person's decision afftecting everyone has been in this game sine day one, don't get upset that at the end it actually stayed true to wht it's always been. Shepard changing everyone's lives is pretty much what Mass Effect is all about.

The fact that you've destroyed Rachni doesn't affect John the taxi driver on Palaven, however that fact that he wakes up and gets green glowy eyes does affect him.

[SaleemRa]

You know one thing that should be mentioned that in the universe of Mass Effect cybernetic augmentation is the norm, heck all the character classes receive some form of implant or another even the soldier. I would think that in this case the observation of the catalyst that organics try to improve themselves with synthetic components holds true, therefore bearing that in mind the choice of synthesis is not as abhorrent to the advanced civilisations as would be to the more primitive one's like the Yahg or anything else yet undiscovered or not highlighted in the game.

I think it is unfair to label synthesis as morally wrong since at the end of the day the choice is on the shoulders of 1 individual and the clock is ticking. Shep is bleeding out and badly burnt he doesnt know how long he has, his allies are getting massacred and their numbers slowly dwindling. He has to make a choice, if he doesnt every advanced race this cycle dies ala the reject ending.

Now he is faced with three options;
1. Control - He replaces the catalyst and controls the reapers. He is the Guardian of universe or the tyrant who enforces the peace ala Leto II in the Dune universe. Immortal, all seeing etc. Who is to say that down the road Shep might get some new information that requires him to make a decision like blasting a civilisation back to the stone age or even wiping it out lest they unleash some new horror on the universe. Shep has always had to make the tough decisions that effect the lives of others, does anyone remember that sidequest in ME2 where you have to choose which part of the colony to save from the nukes the Batarians launched? Did you save the colony or the factories? One results in the death of every man woman and child in the colony habitats but allows survivors in the industrial areas to rebuild, the other saves the colonists but dooms the colony.

Shep has made those kinds of decisions before and as the new catalyst would undoubtedly have to make that choice again in the future. If he does that then what kind of reaction would that generate from the other races? Outrage? A call to arms to throw off the shackles of Emperor Shep II? Would that in turn require him to pacify the other races to stop them from destroying themselves or causing his own destruction? It is not so clear cut.

Also we do not know to what extent the catalyst controls the reapers, are they his loyal foot soldiers or are they his slaves. The catalyst only says he gives the reapers a function and states that they obey him. Who is to say that they could not rebel, maybe they can as they Leviathan stuff seems to indicate.

2. Destroy - He destroys the reapers and all synthetics. Ok before anyone states that Shep lives with high enough EMS who is not to say that he is not blind and a vegetable as a result, it might very well be that it's his meaty bits that are keeping him alive. When I choose the destroy ending I noticed that the lights on the ships in the end scene seemed to be flickering a bit. We cant say for sure what the extent of the damage was but we know for sure that there was alot of it.

All of the advanced civilisations rely on synthetics in some form or another. Would VI's get wiped out and require a total rebuild if so then thats a lot of VI's to replace as almost every Tom, Dick or Harry has one. Will the data stored by the VI's get wiped as a result? How long would it take to replace them in the first place since most of the manufacturing may have been smashed to begin with. We dont know, yes we can rebuild but that would be a long road and one that might lead to other problems.The Quarians are relying on the Geth to help them adapt to their new surroundings on Rannoch, with the Geth eliminated how many generations will this take? Robotic workforces would probably be decimated as a result of this decision too as they fall under the category of synthetics, again yes we can rebuild but how long will it take to build new factories to make them and then distribute them etc. Everything would have to be done individually and manually, not necessarily a bad thing but it would be harder to do.

Also there is the issue of rebuilding synthetics that might eventually go rogue and wipe out every living thing in the universe. By choosing destroy you allow the universe to self determine its fate but the risk is that they might loose it all in the long run.

3. Synthesis - He uses the magic of the crucible to modify the DNA of all living things so that they will be an organic synthetic hybrid. It will also allow synthetics to gain an understanding of organics ( its important to note that this was changed in the EC so EDI is not gaining any fleshy bits). How does this benefit everyone? Well for one communication at the speed of though by organics is now possible, instant information sharing is now possible, learning is probably sped up and certain illnesses are cured as can be witnessed by the krogans having babies even if you didnt cure the Genophage (not sure about that one though I have read people stating that is the case).

It also seems to suggest that collective racial memories can be archived the same way synthetics do. Synthetics would now be able to gain insight into why organics do things the way they do as their memories and though processes are recorded for posterity. The whole reason the Geth Quarian war started in the first place was that the Quarians got spooked when their machines started asking all sorts of questions about its existence. With that information readily available they wouldnt have to spook anyone and their own though processes would be open to understanding by organics possibly quelling fears that the machines are now murderous and avert conflict between them.

This is clearly the Catalysts choice since it even says it's tried it before but the races werent ready so it failed (what ever that meant) - so there is that fact against it but do you discard a solution just because of its origins? If that was the case then you probably discarded the Genophage cure reseach that Maelon was doing as well since it was distilled literally from the bodies of krogan females. Also you are not asking anyone for their permission but then again you dont have the time to.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In summary, at the end of the day they are no Moral choices as everything has an upside and downside. Choose control and Shepard might just have to take the same path as the original catalyst and exterminate someone or at the very least knock back to the stone age. Choose destroy and your making it hard on the survivors it will be survival of the fittest, plus there is no guarantee the whole thing wont just start all over again. Choose synthesis and you have to make a decision that effects every living thing in the universe but on the flip side the cycle is over and the collective knowledge of all the past cycles can be used to rebuild putting everyone on an equal footing.

To me the knowledge and understanding gained from Synthesis is a lot more valuable then either the death of the reapers and the right to self determination or no change to the status quo and placing your trust in a copy of a man who might - out of necessity have to put someone down because they are causing more trouble then they are worth. Additionally I'd like to point out that with Synthesis the reapers no longer have a technological advantage and whose to say the council races wont build ships that can match the reapers in terms of shields and firepower themselves and blow them into oblivion after all is said and done.

[djarlaks10]

Xilizhra wrote...

If everyone is equal, then everyone would have the same level of income, thus there would be no one to do essential yet underpaid and somewhat dirty job (like, maintenance stuff)

VIs?

There are still guys like dock-workers in ME. I doubt they get paid a lot.

[wantedman dan]

This thread is a testament to the fact that simply because you proclaim something to be true, it does not automatically become such.