122 réponses à ce sujet

[MerchantGOL]

I want them to matter

if i play as an elf i want to pay extra,get attacked in the street, and have characters that wont even talk to me in that play through or vice versa

DA:O did this so poorly it was embarassing.



also A qunari

Modifié par MerchantGOL, 07 juillet 2012 - 08:55 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Plaintiff wrote...

Oh lord, here we go again. "I was able to imagine it, so it's in the game!".

No. No it isn't.

It's in my game, which is all that matters.  If it fails to be in your game, that's your fault.

None of the protagonists have any worldview except what the player gives them, and the worldview of the protagonist is irrelevent. I expect a stronger reaction from the game.

Every NPC does react.  To the human noble, an NPC might be shockingly informal, while to a dwarf commoner that same NPC could be surprisingly warm and welcoming.

It's all the same game content, but since the inputs are different the reactions are different.

Plaintiff wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Are you new to RPGs?

No, I just don't care that much about them.

And you play Dragon Age games why, exactly?

You already have an infinite number of backgrounds and worldviews because they only exist in the privacy of your own head. If anything the Origins limited your roleplaying capabilities by forcing you to choose between six broadly pre-defined ones, rather than allowing you to imagine your own entirely.

Absolutely Origins was limiting in this respect, which is why I'd like to see a return to the Mysterious Stranger PC.

DA2, though, did routinely contradict my character designs through its obfuscatory paraphrase system.  DA2 allowed me almost no control at all over my character's words.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 07 juillet 2012 - 07:01 .

[wsandista]

Faerunner wrote...

To be honest, I don't think that removing origins improved DA2's quality

I don't think ANY  change made in DA2 improved the quality, in fact it was often detrimental to quality.

While I like the idea of having a "mysterious stranger" background like in NWN, I like origins, especially when they are vague enough(like in DAO) to allow me to create most of the PC's backstory and personality, instead of having it forced(like DA2).

[Plaintiff]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
And you play Dragon Age games why, exactly?

Because I like fantasy stories. It is merely coincidence that a lot of fantasy games happen to be classified as RPGs. I wouldn't care if Dragon Age ceased to be an RPG, as long as it told a decent story. If my decisions allow the story to go multiple ways, then that's pretty neat, but it's by no means a requirement.

I don't care about... whatever you care about, player agency or some such. I don't judge my games based on the quality of the role-playing experience. My experience with role-playing is limited, so I wouldn't even know where to begin judging such a factor. I cheated with my Fighting Fantasy gamebooks, and I was put off DnD for life by a) the difficulty of finding a group and the sheer amount of math involved in simply creating a character. I have an expensive set of hard-back rulebooks that now serve to prop up my laptop. Sometimes I crack them open to read the lore and look at the pretty pictures.

I wandered away from the point a bit there. Back to videogames:

DA:O and DA2 are compelling narrative experiences overall, despite their respective flaws, so I walk away happy. I don't need to concoct a backstory and motivations for my characters. As far as I'm concerned, any important details will be in the game.

By comparison, Skyrim and Kingdoms of Amalur are not particularly compelling narrative experiences, the stories are shallow, cookie-cutter creations with characters so flat they might as well be cardboard, and no amount of "quality roleplaying" will fix that. The only point in their favour is the amount of content; but it's not good content, the two games aren't even very different from each other, or from any open-world game I've played. Even if I cared about roleplaying, why would I want to be the protagonist of a story I've seen done a million times before, much better than this?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 07 juillet 2012 - 07:50 .

[Xhon12]

Yes to the origins. I don't want to be a human, I want to be an elf or a qunari!
At the beginning of DA2 you're everything is like "Hey, I'm Hawke. How about we flee from the darkspawn while Varric tales our story in an awesome way?" Then, in Kirkwall you just end up in a big mess just because you're the main character and the story demands it.
I want an origin only for my character, where I get introduced to my race, family, city or whatever. This way, I feel like that character is mine, and nobody else's. It's the magic of Origins
And well, the great part of them is also how your own companions react (like Alistair's dialogues if you are a mage, Morrigan's too)

[MerchantGOL]

If you have to make up **** in your head for the game, then the game is failing

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...
No, I just don't care that much about them.

Well this is a thread about Origins and I was speaking of how they are useful roleplaying tools in a roleplaying game.

Your lack of appreciation for them as a roleplaying tool does not discredit what they do.

Irrelevent to my argument, herp derp derp.

No it was not. 

I said how Origins help deterministically shape the entire worldview of the protaganist. A key asset to roleplaying. Your response was "the PC's worldview is irrelevent".

A strange mindset to have in a roleplaying game.

MerchantGOL wrote...
If you have to make up **** in your head for the game, then the game is failing

It's a little concerning that Bioware has fans who either; don't know what roleplaying is or simply do not like it.

Certainly explains the company's direction over the past few years though.

Modifié par GodWood, 07 juillet 2012 - 11:39 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

MerchantGOL wrote...

If you have to make up **** in your head for the game, then the game is failing

I don't think you know what role playing is. How do you even play these games if you don't use use "head canon" to justify why your character made a decision? Do you just pick an option for ****s and giggles?

[DogMeat312]

MerchantGOL wrote...

If you have to make up **** in your head for the game, then the game is failing

Agreed.

[Will-o'-wisp]

Yes, I'd definitely want origins back in DA3.
I want to play as dwarf or elf again, I prefer those over humans and even if we're still limited to humans only, I'd at least want different origins for those. Could be simple ones like noble, commoner, streetrat or more specialised ones...

I'd also be okay with different origins based on your class only (for example rogues start as pirates, mages break out of their circle, warriors could be serving a noble until X happens and they are forced to become mercenaries/ adventurers/ whatever).
At least give us some kind of origins and I'll be happy. I prefer being able to choose from different backgrounds and have different experiences each playthrough.

To some extend, my Hawkes were quite different personalities, yes, but that wasn't the same as choosing a comlete different character and background each playthrough in DA:O.

[Cimeas]

This idea that we decide the story of our character and if you can't choose every line of dialogue or if there is a voiced protagonist it's not a proper RPG annoys me.


Where does it end? Should they not explain lore or the origin of the mages/templars so that we can make our own story up? Should Leliana or Sten not have backstories so we can decide why they are with me? Should we make up a reason why the two Dwarven candidates for King hate each other, or why the caste system exists?

You might as well just write a book.


I play games to be entertained, not to make entertainment. Of course writing a book or a movie script is entertaining, and a bit of imagination is always great in RPGs (I enjoy imagining what my Shepard does after ME3 for example), but Bioware are telling us a story.


Origins give you meaning in the world, I would rather have a reason for adventuring be part of the game, than something I need to make up. Origins mean that when you meet characters again, perhaps after 50 or 60 hours of adventuring, you can be a different character and have an interesting personality development. Origins give you a place in the world.


With a nameless adventurer, I always think 'where's my mother, my father, my friends'. Did I leave them all behind? Oh wait, I have to either say that all my family is dead (boring) or that I can never see them again for some stupid reason.

Modifié par Cimeas, 07 juillet 2012 - 01:55 .

[Jessihatt]

I want them back for the reasons the OP said; having different opinions on characters because of where your PC originated from. (Except Teagan. It's hard not to love Teagan.)

I also liked hearing bits about the other origins I wasn't playing which made me want to play the game again.

Same for gender reactions. That was kinda why I was disappointed all LIs in DA2 were bi.
In origins, if I wanted to romance Morrigan I had to play as a guy which I wouldn't have done otherwise.

So for DA3 I want origins, reactions to gender (like city elf origin) and reactions to class - like everyone says, have people tremble at the sight of a mage stabbing themselves or whatever!

[Cimeas]

random repost; sorry

Modifié par Cimeas, 07 juillet 2012 - 01:55 .

[Iosev]

Cimeas wrote...

This idea that we decide the story of our character and if you can't choose every line of dialogue or if there is a voiced protagonist it's not a proper RPG annoys me.

I think that it is fine for some games to strive for allowing the player to have as much agency (in both control and backstory) as possible, but I agree, not all games need to strive for it, particularly games that focus on telling a story.

In my opinion, Bioware games like Knights of the Old Republic and Dragon Age: Origins are more about letting players experience and interact with a story, whereas games like Skyrim are more about letting players experience a game world.  I think player agency is more important for the latter type of game (in order for the player to feel like they can be and act however they wish within a world), but not as important for the former examples (since the developers have to restrict some agency in order to tell a story).

Modifié par arcelonious, 07 juillet 2012 - 04:15 .

[MerchantGOL]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

If you have to make up **** in your head for the game, then the game is failing

I don't think you know what role playing is. How do you even play these games if you don't use use "head canon" to justify why your character made a decision? Do you just pick an option for ****s and giggles?

There is a diffrence then using your imagination to give ur chacter a bit more of a conection to you and a specific mindset, then you having to do allllll the work like you did in DA:O 

Modifié par MerchantGOL, 07 juillet 2012 - 08:13 .

[LobselVith8]

MerchantGOL wrote...

If you have to make up **** in your head for the game, then the game is failing

Skyrim and New Vegas invite the player to shape who their protagonist is - including picking options at times to determine what kind of backstory they have. It's expected that players will use their imagination for their protagonist. I think having to use your imagination to fix a bad story is certainly a problem.

[MerchantGOL]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

If you have to make up **** in your head for the game, then the game is failing

Skyrim and New Vegas invite the player to shape who their protagonist is - including picking options at times to determine what kind of backstory they have. It's expected that players will use their imagination for their protagonist. I think having to use your imagination to fix a bad story is certainly a problem.

Skyrim is compeltey souless for that  reason, you don't play it for the story, you play it  to run around in a  world

You play bioware games for the story, so  havign to use your imagniation to that level is failing

picking  a race in a game shoudlnt just be a bout starign with slightly diffrent stats, if i play as an elf it should matter, and it didnt matter at all in DA:O, 

Headcannon should be a perk not manditory

Modifié par MerchantGOL, 07 juillet 2012 - 11:02 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

MerchantGOL wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

If you have to make up **** in your head for the game, then the game is failing

Skyrim and New Vegas invite the player to shape who their protagonist is - including picking options at times to determine what kind of backstory they have. It's expected that players will use their imagination for their protagonist. I think having to use your imagination to fix a bad story is certainly a problem.

Skyrim is compeltey souless for that  reason, you don't play it for the story, you play it  to run around in a  world

You play bioware games for the story, so  havign to use your imagniation to that level is failing

picking  a race in a game shoudlnt just be a bout starign with slightly diffrent stats, if i play as an elf it should matter, and it didnt matter at all in DA:O, 

Headcannon should be a perk not manditory

I just finished my first City Elf playthrough and it was very different from my Human noble. There lots of references to his background, and there were lots of oppurtunities to let his background come to light throuigh dialogue. His ending was also completely different to any other character i've played.

It's naive to think that DAO is going to be a completely different game based on what Origin you pick. It sure as hell does a better job of implementing your origin into the story than any of the Bethesda games have. I can't even think of a game that has done multiple origins better than DAO.

[hussey 92]

Origins > fixed PC

[MerchantGOL]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

If you have to make up **** in your head for the game, then the game is failing

Skyrim and New Vegas invite the player to shape who their protagonist is - including picking options at times to determine what kind of backstory they have. It's expected that players will use their imagination for their protagonist. I think having to use your imagination to fix a bad story is certainly a problem.

Skyrim is compeltey souless for that  reason, you don't play it for the story, you play it  to run around in a  world

You play bioware games for the story, so  havign to use your imagniation to that level is failing

picking  a race in a game shoudlnt just be a bout starign with slightly diffrent stats, if i play as an elf it should matter, and it didnt matter at all in DA:O, 

Headcannon should be a perk not manditory

I just finished my first City Elf playthrough and it was very different from my Human noble

  yes the orgins stories are diffrentnever said they were, but after the prolouge their usless.

"There lots of references to his background" no their arent

 "His ending was also completely different to any other character i've played." the only diffrence i shte throw away line  made about your race helping orzamar, giving the dailsh highever ect

"It's naive to think that DAO is going to be a completely different game based on what Origin you pick." No its not. if they cant do it in a meaningfull way don't do it at all. cause all it dose is expose the lmitations of the game and hurts the universe, Evels are spposed ot be strongly discriminated aginst, yet except for the one shop keep in cailans camp noone gives a ****. Thats ether bad writting or bad game desgine nether are things to be encouraged

It pissed me off in skyrim too, kahjit arent allowed in the city? well i can strut in  walk to an in and sell all the moon sugar i have no problem. that is infiruatiing

"I can't even think of a game that has done multiple origins better than DAO." Mass effect, Especaily ME1 same company too imagine that.

[wsandista]

Faerunner wrote...

I agree, but this topic is about origins and a common argument I see against implementing origins is that it takes away time, resources, and quality from the rest of the game. DAO and DA2 are living proof that removing origins does not improve the quality of the rest of the game (as the devs had literally only one origin, one race, one character to develop and it was still done poorly), so might as well budget in good quality origins into a good quality game.

Their argument has merit, but replace "origins" with "voiced PC" and you can draw the same conclusion. I would think that having a voiced PC can easily drain more recources than origins, seeing as orgins are variable hour adventures and voiced PC is throughout the enitre game.

I agree. DA:O set up where your character's from, how they were raised and who their friends/realtives are (giving some context and structure to their lives) but ultimately leaves a good deal of background information, personal feelings and choices up to the imagination of the player. To me, this is much more personalized than "Hi, nameless stranger that came out of the blue and is here to save us all" but less forced and awkward than "This is your character, Garret Hawke. Don't worry about coming up with his background, thoughts, or choices, those are all decided. Just direct him about."

I agree, but I think that the freedom allowed with a mysterious stranger is quite good. If there is only going to be one orgin(and it is somewhat defined) games like NWN2 and BG do it much better than DA2, and those games should be looked at for influence.

(I love your sig, by the way. ^^)

For someone with the epithet "the Mad", Sylvius makes some of the wisest and most reasonable statements on these forums.

[wsandista]

MerchantGOL wrote...

yes the orgins stories are diffrentnever said they were, but after the prolouge their usless.

Beat the game. The epilogues for different origins are quite different. The expierences in the orgins also shape the character.

"There lots of references to his background" no their arent

Calian has different dialogue, as does Loghain, every companion, and quite a few NPCs depending on the PCs origin.

"His ending was also completely different to any other character i've played." the only diffrence i shte throw away line  made about your race helping orzamar, giving the dailsh highever ect

The endings for different origins are different. Go to youtube and look at a CE's ending and compare it to a HN's. Quite a bit different.

"It's naive to think that DAO is going to be a completely different game based on what Origin you pick." No its not. if they cant do it in a meaningfull way don't do it at all. cause all it dose is expose the lmitations of the game and hurts the universe, Evels are spposed ot be strongly discriminated aginst, yet except for the one shop keep in cailans camp noone gives a ****. Thats ether bad writting or bad game desgine nether are things to be encouraged

Oh yes it is. If you want an entirely different game, then buy another game. Orgins do change several things in the game though.

It pissed me off in skyrim too, kahjit arent allowed in the city? well i can strut in  walk to an in and sell all the moon sugar i have no problem. that is infiruatiing

That is Skyrim, which doesn't have orgins. 

"I can't even think of a game that has done multiple origins better than DAO." Mass effect, Especaily ME1 same company too imagine that.

ME1? You get a few different dialgue options(less than DAO BTW), one extra mission, a refrence in a mission. DAO did much more than that. Even companion banter was influenced by your origin.

[wowpwnslol]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MerchantGOL wrote...

If you have to make up **** in your head for the game, then the game is failing

Skyrim and New Vegas invite the player to shape who their protagonist is - including picking options at times to determine what kind of backstory they have. It's expected that players will use their imagination for their protagonist. I think having to use your imagination to fix a bad story is certainly a problem.

Skyrim and New Vegas sucked ass. Sorry to break it to you.