271 réponses à ce sujet

[Binary_Helix 1]

What about the Rachni? They were made out to be a limitless army. How about the Collector Base? That's Reaper tech.

Those two choices alone were suppose to change the balance of power.

[Xilizhra]

The latter would work better if it wasn't being used by your enemy, really. As for the rachni, they had the reset button pressed when the Reapers kidnapped the queen, and have to build up their race again; working on the Crucible is safer for them in that case.

[chemiclord]

I'm not exactly sure where that is claimed, or even implied, but okay...

I don't support conventional victory because there is precious little evidence it's possible at all... which is kinda funny, because that's EXACTLY what the creators of the series have claimed REPEATEDLY.

Strange how that works.

Modifié par chemiclord, 06 juillet 2012 - 08:29 .

[Tealjaker94]

Against an incredibly advanced army of machines that have wiped out galactic civilization countless times. I've seen the comparison that it's like Eskimos fighting the US army. Jut because the Eskimos get a few m16s doesn't mean they can win the war.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

- You saw the Rachni queen. She was in a very bad shape.
- The Reaper tech probably won't help that much because...
- ... The galaxy was taken by surprise because the council ignored Shepard's warnings.
- The Reapers are unbelievably powerful.

[Binary_Helix 1]

chemiclord wrote...

I'm not exactly sure where that is claimed, or even implied, but okay...

I don't support conventional victory because there is precious little evidence it's possible at all... which is kinda funny, because that's EXACTLY what the creators of the series have claimed REPEATEDLY.

Strange how that works.

Those were the biggest choices of the trilogy with some of the highest stakes and biggest potential pay off.

I never got the impression that the Reapers were unbeatable until ME3 decided it should be so.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I'm not exactly sure where that is claimed, or even implied, but okay...

I don't support conventional victory because there is precious little evidence it's possible at all... which is kinda funny, because that's EXACTLY what the creators of the series have claimed REPEATEDLY.

Strange how that works.

Those were the biggest choices of the trilogy with some of the highest stakes and biggest potential pay off.

I never got the impression that the Reapers were unbeatable until ME3 decided it should be so.

So true, before ME3, the whole plot was to defeat the Reapers conventionally.

[DirtySHISN0]

The reapers wouldn't be a galactic threat if you could defeat them conventionally.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Council is made up of dumbasses and didn't take the reaper threat seriously. The Alliance denied the reaper threat. Cerberus kept the collector base tech for itself and put it on Alliance rejects to fight against the Alliance. The only people who believed it were Shepard's team and The Illusive Man. Anyone else who got on board after ME2 got on board when it was too late to do anything. Garrus was taken seriously and there was like 3 months to prepare. Can't build many dreadnoughts in 3 months.

That's the problem.

The rachni got corrupted, and when you freed the queen in ME3 there wasn't enough time to burrow in a new world and create a new army of any significant size. You were lucky to get 100 out of it. Had the reapers not found the world, it might have been a big difference.

[inko1nsiderate]

I would be ok with conventional victory if it required all of the following:

-Saving the Rachni

-Killing Wrex in ME1, destroying Maelon's data, sabotaging the Cure and saving Mordin

-Saving the collector base

-A perfect Suicide Mission with all DLC ME2 characters

-Completing every side quest in the game

-100% Galactic Readiness, 10,000 war assets

-Saving both the Geth and the Quarians

-Saving the original council

-Having Dr. Chakwas stay in the labs

-Having Virmire survivor work with Hackette

-Recruiting Javik, and having him touch his shard (ruining his life will make him fight better)

-Destroying the Heretics

And to top it all off, it should be available for NG+ only.

If you make conventional victory very very hard to acheive in game, then I think I could live with it existing.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 06 juillet 2012 - 08:38 .

[naes1984]

Well, it is implied in the refusal ending that the next cycle does beat the Reapers conventionally (given that they don't use the Crucible)

[Khajiit Jzargo]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

The reapers wouldn't be a galactic threat if you could defeat them conventionally.

Yes they would.

[jetfire118]

I realized victory was impossible without some weapon. Reapers are ALL over the damn galaxy Batarians are destroyed in minutes Palavan is barley standing Thesia is done...Even with the galaxy united its impossible.. What did you want freaking shepard to go around going PEW PEW PEW BOOM BOOM YEA F U HARBY! Even hackett tells you its impossible with out magic.

[JamesFaith]

Did you speak about Rachni who had only two years for restoration of their race? They only be useful as foot soldiers, but if they had fleet, it would be very small.

And Collector base. Again there is problem with time factor - only six months. Even if we found some superweapons here, there wouldn't be anough time for re-arming fleet and these ship would be lost as first during defence of key planets ans Citadel, because Reapers are too strong.

[Fireblader70]

Coventional victory does not suddenly equal a good ending.

The Crucible, as it is, sucks. But having a cheesy, cliched, Hollywood ending where the Reapers are beaten by the unstoppable force of unity just sounds ridiculous to me.

Just because the Crucible is badly done doesn't mean there aren't other ways to win unconventionally.

[elitehunter34]

They would need a MASSIVE industrial base to support the raising of this new army. This new army and its resources would have to be kept hidden from the Reapers. If the Rachni could accomplish this, I very much think that they could be a threat to the Reapers, but there's just too many things that could go wrong.

Not only that, but we have no idea how fast they can reproduce, it might simply take them too long to raise a sufficiently large army that would threaten the Reapers. The rest of the galaxy's fleets might already be destroyed by the time that happens. The Rachni would need a fleet numbering in the millions because the Reapers have roughly 20,000 Sovereign ships (roughly one a cycle according to the codex and a cycle roughly every 50,000 years) and countless more smaller ships, such as the Reaper destroyer on Rannoch. I would guess that creating a fleet that could even hope to counter this would take several star systems worth of resources.

So, actually, that would be a pretty damn interesting series. Imagine that everything goes right, and the Rachni create an army that could stop the Reapers? I would pay a lot of money to see/play/read a series about that.

Modifié par elitehunter34, 06 juillet 2012 - 09:03 .

[Creepter]

A conventional victory WOULD have been possible.
The Reapers are only invincible and/or impossible to defeat in conventional ways because Bioware painted them into a corner by claiming that they are impossible to beat.

As I've said many times before: if you, in your story, constantly point out that your antagonists are immortal then it's basically unavoidable that you have to drag a BS plot point out of your ass in the third act if your villains are to be defeated.

That's why we ended up with the Crucible, a deus ex machina weapon; because Bioware wrote themselves into a corner with the Reapers.

[Tealjaker94]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I'm not exactly sure where that is claimed, or even implied, but okay...

I don't support conventional victory because there is precious little evidence it's possible at all... which is kinda funny, because that's EXACTLY what the creators of the series have claimed REPEATEDLY.

Strange how that works.

Those were the biggest choices of the trilogy with some of the highest stakes and biggest potential pay off.

I never got the impression that the Reapers were unbeatable until ME3 decided it should be so.

So true, before ME3, the whole plot was to defeat the Reapers conventionally.

Not true at all. The plot has always been to try to find some way to survive. Not sure where you got the impression that we could win conventionally. Maybe when the entire citadel fleet and alliance fifth fleet got their asses kicked by a single reaper until Shepard managed to completely disable it. I guess if 1 reaper can take out 2 fleets, conventional victory must be a distinct possibility. If anything, the reapers were weaker in ME3 than previously depicted.

Modifié par Tealjaker94, 06 juillet 2012 - 08:41 .

[naes1984]

Creepter wrote...

A conventional victory WOULD have been possible.
The Reapers are only invincible and/or impossible to defeat in conventional ways because Bioware painted them into a corner by claiming that they are impossible to beat.

As I've said many times before: if you, in your story, constantly point out that your antagonists are immortal then it's basically unavoidable that you have to drag a BS plot point out of your ass in the third act if your villains are to be defeated.

That's why we ended up with the Crucible, a deus ex machina weapon; because Bioware wrote themselves into a corner with the Reapers.

They wrote themselves into many corners that they couldn't figure out how to solve. The only time the Reapers are vulnerable is when they are "hibernating" in Dark Space. THAT should have been the basis of the plot.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

I would be ok with conventional victory if it required all of the following:

-Saving the Rachni

-Killing Wrex in ME1, destroying Maelon's data, sabotaging the Cure and saving Mordin

-Saving the collector base

-A perfect Suicide Mission with all DLC ME2 characters

-Completing every side quest in the game

-100% Galactic Readiness, 10,000 war assets

-Saving both the Geth and the Quarians

-Saving the original council

-Having Dr. Chakwas stay in the labs

-Having Virmire survivor work with Hackette

-Recruiting Javik, and having him touch his shard (ruining his life will make him fight better)

-Destroying the Heretics

And to top it all off, it should be available for NG+ only.

If you make conventional victory very very hard to acheive in game, then I think I could live with it existing.

So in order to achieve a conventional victory, people would have to rasie their readiness to 100%? Gee, what a great idea!

[Mavqt]

jetfire118 wrote...

I realized victory was impossible without some weapon. Reapers are ALL over the damn galaxy Batarians are destroyed in minutes Palavan is barley standing Thesia is done...Even with the galaxy united its impossible.. What did you want freaking shepard to go around going PEW PEW PEW BOOM BOOM YEA F U HARBY! Even hackett tells you its impossible with out magic.

Garrus and Liara too.

[Binary_Helix 1]

jetfire118 wrote...

I realized victory was impossible without some weapon. Reapers are ALL over the damn galaxy Batarians are destroyed in minutes Palavan is barley standing Thesia is done...Even with the galaxy united its impossible.. What did you want freaking shepard to go around going PEW PEW PEW BOOM BOOM YEA F U HARBY! Even hackett tells you its impossible with out magic.

If resistance was futile then why bother?

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 06 juillet 2012 - 08:45 .

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I'm not exactly sure where that is claimed, or even implied, but okay...

I don't support conventional victory because there is precious little evidence it's possible at all... which is kinda funny, because that's EXACTLY what the creators of the series have claimed REPEATEDLY.

Strange how that works.

Those were the biggest choices of the trilogy with some of the highest stakes and biggest potential pay off.

I never got the impression that the Reapers were unbeatable until ME3 decided it should be so.

So true, before ME3, the whole plot was to defeat the Reapers conventionally.

Not true at all. The plot has always been to try to find some way to survive. Not sure where you got the impression that we could win conventionally. Maybe when the entire citadel fleet and alliance fifth fleet got their asses kicked by a single reaper until Shepard managed to completely disable it. I guess if 1 reaper can take out 2 fleets, conventional victory must be a distinct possibility. If anything, the reapers were weaker in ME3 than previously depicted.

During the whole sequence of the game, Shepard had been warning the council about the Reapers, etc. If they had prepared maybe two years ealier, the game would have gone down the path of beating them conventionally, this, concept of a super-weapon defeating the Reapers didn't show up till ME3.

[Binary_Helix 1]

JamesFaith wrote...

Did you speak about Rachni who had only two years for restoration of their race? They only be useful as foot soldiers, but if they had fleet, it would be very small.

And Collector base. Again there is problem with time factor - only six months. Even if we found some superweapons here, there wouldn't be anough time for re-arming fleet and these ship would be lost as first during defence of key planets ans Citadel, because Reapers are too strong.

Also the matter of Soveriegn's wreckage which was reverse enginneered to produce immensly powerful new generation weaponry.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

jetfire118 wrote...

I realized victory was impossible without some weapon. Reapers are ALL over the damn galaxy Batarians are destroyed in minutes Palavan is barley standing Thesia is done...Even with the galaxy united its impossible.. What did you want freaking shepard to go around going PEW PEW PEW BOOM BOOM YEA F U HARBY! Even hackett tells you its impossible with out magic.

If resistance was futile then why bother?

Well, you could build and use the Crucible in order to save all your friends.