271 réponses à ce sujet

[Shaigunjoe]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

I believe conventional victory could be possible under these circumstances:

1) Everybody had believed Shepard about the Reapers from the get-go.

2) All of the galactic union stuff we did in ME3 had already been done by ME2

3) Send the united galactic fleets (all equipped with Thanix Cannons and the Treaty of Farxien suspended in the name of getting as many dreadnoughts built as possible) to basically spawn-camp the Alpha/Omega 4/wherever Relay

4) Decimate the Reapers (who would ideally be unprepared for this massive resistance) in a brutal opening salvo

5) Take massive losses, spend next few decades repairing (they likely would have made it to a few planets anyway)

The thing is, none of that happened. None of that was ever going to happen, and the story would have been pretty boring if it had. Stuff like the Turian/Krogan alliance, the Geth and/or Quarian alliance and the Batarian/everybody else alliance probably wouldn't have even happened without the Reaper invasion to provide common ground. As it stands, the Reapers had the advantage of surprise, superior numbers and firepower, and an inexhaustable supply of ground troops. All we can do in ME3 is lick our wounds, gather as many of the survivng armies as we can and put all the best and brightest scientists and engineers to work on the big Reaper-killing superweapon the Protheans left behind for us.

A conventional victory was never in the cards, and the Crucible gives us a better chance for a happy ending than that would have done anyway. Anyone who thinks differently is either naive, in denial or wasn't paying attention for 90% of the game.

I don't know, spawn camping a relay, sounds pretty fun!  Might remind me of quake.  (That would also remind me of that scene from the awful wing commander movie at the end)

[silentassassin264]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

I believe conventional victory could be possible under these circumstances:

1) Everybody had believed Shepard about the Reapers from the get-go.

2) All of the galactic union stuff we did in ME3 had already been done by ME2

3) Send the united galactic fleets (all equipped with Thanix Cannons and the Treaty of Farxien suspended in the name of getting as many dreadnoughts built as possible) to basically spawn-camp the Alpha/Omega 4/wherever Relay

4) Decimate the Reapers (who would ideally be unprepared for this massive resistance) in a brutal opening salvo

5) Take massive losses, spend next few decades repairing (they likely would have made it to a few planets anyway)

The thing is, none of that happened. None of that was ever going to happen, and the story would have been pretty boring if it had. Stuff like the Turian/Krogan alliance, the Geth and/or Quarian alliance and the Batarian/everybody else alliance probably wouldn't have even happened without the Reaper invasion to provide common ground. As it stands, the Reapers had the advantage of surprise, superior numbers and firepower, and an inexhaustable supply of ground troops. All we can do in ME3 is lick our wounds, gather as many of the survivng armies as we can and put all the best and brightest scientists and engineers to work on the big Reaper-killing superweapon the Protheans left behind for us.

A conventional victory was never in the cards, and the Crucible gives us a better chance for a happy ending than that would have done anyway. Anyone who thinks differently is either naive, in denial or wasn't paying attention for 90% of the game.

Thank you.  Someone else gets it.  All this conventional victory crap was making me lose faith in humanity.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 07 juillet 2012 - 02:26 .

[Binary_Helix 1]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

It appears to me you are just making stuff up.  What top staff is leaving (they did lose a lot of personal post swtor but thats pretty regular for an MMO and it wasn't top brass)  Drew is still working on a novel for swtor despite not working for BW anymore, so probably no bad blood there, and how exactly was he 'fighting for every single thing' and what was this different vision he had?

The guy who created DAO also left Bioware. Maybe you should actually get informed?

Have you even played ME1? It's very different than it's sequels. That's Drew's vision right there. A much more science focused game where everybody wears combat hardsuits as oppossed to having squadmates who fight in nothing but a bra. Drew was more of a science guy his dark energy ending even alludes to that. Casey and Mac are more fantasy oriented types. Nevertheless their different approaches balanced well enough to where ME2 was a a success. ME3 is where Casey and Mac took over completely and it shows. Ninja enemies, Prothean squadmates, the Crucible, Star Child, etc. It wasn't all bad but their vision isn't the same as Drew's.

[Scott2998]

How are thanix canons going to help you when your fleet is made up of the ragtag remnants of what's left of everyone else's shattered fleets? The only fleet that wasn't already beat to hell were the few the salarians sent you. You're still massively outnumbered, using adapted weaponry, against an enemy that easily outmanuvers you.

Sure you can use the resources spent on the crucible to build more ships, but who are you going to get to man them? Every planet is on lockdown with the exception of Sanctuary and the salarian homeworlds. You aren't going to get help from Sanctuary for obvious reasons and the salarians aren't going to help you considering the BS they made you go through just to get the token support you do have.

Then, if by some miracle you liberate Earth you still have to do the same thing on Palaven....then Thesia.... Etc

[Binary_Helix 1]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Thank you.  Someone else gets it.  All this conventional victory crap was making me lose faith in humanity.

Using a conventional super weapon is what i'd call a conventional victory only the Crucible uses space magic instead.

[Ticonderoga117]

ME1- First encounter. Find out initial Reaper plans botched. Fight Soverign, heavy losses, defeated a space Cthulhu.
ME2- Easily wiped the floor with a Reaper Baby, killed a good number of Reaper henchmen who had Reaper Tech. Gathered better tech to fight Reapers, gathered a team that is the foundation for a Galactic Alliance.

First two games set the stage up beautifully that, yeah, this fight is gonna inflict severe casualties on the Galaxy, but we will beat these guys. Then suddenly, just because the win one battle, suddenly nothing else is possible but build this device that could be nothing more than a giant blender.

If wars went this way in real life, we would've lost World War 2.

[Scott2998]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Thank you.  Someone else gets it.  All this conventional victory crap was making me lose faith in humanity.

Using a conventional super weapon is what i'd call a conventional victory only the Crucible uses space magic instead.

What space magic are you referring to?  Element zero? Spice? Protoculture? Energon?

[Ticonderoga117]

Scott2998 wrote...
What space magic are you referring to?  Element zero? Spice? Protoculture? Energon?

I think it's of  "The Writer says so" variety.

[silentassassin264]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Thank you.  Someone else gets it.  All this conventional victory crap was making me lose faith in humanity.

Using a conventional super weapon is what i'd call a conventional victory only the Crucible uses space magic instead.

Thanix cannons did not even oneshot the Collector Ship which was inferior to an actual Reaper and you forget that the Reapers were still shredding your army like it was nothing.  You may reduce the amount of dreadnoughts required for victory with adding Thanixes everywhere but it doesn't change the fact that one shot kills an allied force ship and the Reapers barriers would not go down in one hit.  They can also reduce mass on a dime and dodge it whereas allied forces cannot.  Thanix cannons would have caused a lasting scar on reaper forces but at best you would have turned their victory from a sure thing to slightly pyrrhic victory.  They win regardless.

[Scott2998]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Scott2998 wrote...
What space magic are you referring to?  Element zero? Spice? Protoculture? Energon?

I think it's of  "The Writer says so" variety.

Oh so you mean Science Fiction. So I don't see the problem.

[Shaigunjoe]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

It appears to me you are just making stuff up.  What top staff is leaving (they did lose a lot of personal post swtor but thats pretty regular for an MMO and it wasn't top brass)  Drew is still working on a novel for swtor despite not working for BW anymore, so probably no bad blood there, and how exactly was he 'fighting for every single thing' and what was this different vision he had?

The guy who created DAO also left Bioware. Maybe you should actually get informed?

Have you even played ME1? It's very different than it's sequels. That's Drew's vision right there. A much more science focused game where everybody wears combat hardsuits as oppossed to having squadmates who fight in nothing but a bra. Drew was more of a science guy his dark energy ending even alludes to that. Casey and Mac are more fantasy oriented types. Nevertheless their different approaches balanced well enough to where ME2 was a a success. ME3 is where Casey and Mac took over completely and it shows. Ninja enemies, Prothean squadmates, the Crucible, Star Child, etc. It wasn't all bad but their vision isn't the same as Drew's.

Just more making stuff up. You aren't even providing specifics and links. Brent Knowles (who wasn't the creator of DAO BTW) left, and that was back in 2010 (not lately!)  Drew is actually more of a fantasy guy, which is why he prefers writing star wars AND left BW to work on his own FANTASY series.

What about his dark energy?  That was also a debunked rumor, how can you even mention that? You do realize, that if the dark energy plot was true, it would have turned the entire message of mass effect into one about environmentalism?  Mass Effect covers a lot of topics, but I don't think it ever even touches environmentalism.

[Ticonderoga117]

Scott2998 wrote...
Oh so you mean Science Fiction. So I don't see the problem.

I see the fiction, but where's the Science?!

Eezo, it's decently explained and established.

Cruicible, no one knows what it does (even though it's just a big battery more or less), no one knows how it will do it's job, nor know what it's job is really.

I'm sorry, but that's the bad type of space magic.

[silentassassin264]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

It appears to me you are just making stuff up.  What top staff is leaving (they did lose a lot of personal post swtor but thats pretty regular for an MMO and it wasn't top brass)  Drew is still working on a novel for swtor despite not working for BW anymore, so probably no bad blood there, and how exactly was he 'fighting for every single thing' and what was this different vision he had?

The guy who created DAO also left Bioware. Maybe you should actually get informed?

Have you even played ME1? It's very different than it's sequels. That's Drew's vision right there. A much more science focused game where everybody wears combat hardsuits as oppossed to having squadmates who fight in nothing but a bra. Drew was more of a science guy his dark energy ending even alludes to that. Casey and Mac are more fantasy oriented types. Nevertheless their different approaches balanced well enough to where ME2 was a a success. ME3 is where Casey and Mac took over completely and it shows. Ninja enemies, Prothean squadmates, the Crucible, Star Child, etc. It wasn't all bad but their vision isn't the same as Drew's.

Just more making stuff up. You aren't even providing specifics and links. Brent Knowles (who wasn't the creator of DAO BTW) left, and that was back in 2010 (not lately!)  Drew is actually more of a fantasy guy, which is why he prefers writing star wars AND left BW to work on his own FANTASY series.

What about his dark energy?  That was also a debunked rumor, how can you even mention that? You do realize, that if the dark energy plot was true, it would have turned the entire message of mass effect into one about environmentalism?  Mass Effect covers a lot of topics, but I don't think it ever even touches environmentalism.

That dark energy theory is not a debunked rumor.  That was damage control after it opened the floodgates.  You could plainly tell from the main story of ME2, it was supposed to be about humans being special hence why you had to fight this special human Reaper at the end.  That was all scrapped and it was obvious.  You are in denial if you can't see that.  

[Scott2998]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Scott2998 wrote...
Oh so you mean Science Fiction. So I don't see the problem.

I see the fiction, but where's the Science?!

Eezo, it's decently explained and established.

Cruicible, no one knows what it does (even though it's just a big battery more or less), no one knows how it will do it's job, nor know what it's job is really. 

I'm sorry, but that's the bad type of space magic.

The difference between Element Zero and the Crucible is that circumstances to the crucible did happen as far as design and development.

See: Manhatten Project

[Ticonderoga117]

silentassassin264 wrote...
Thanix cannons did not even oneshot the Collector Ship which was inferior to an actual Reaper and you forget that the Reapers were still shredding your army like it was nothing.

Charging in the open does that. That's what you get having an Admiral lead ground forces.

 You may reduce the amount of dreadnoughts required for victory with adding Thanixes everywhere but it doesn't change the fact that one shot kills an allied force ship

FTL in, fire while the Reapers are turning, FTL out. Hey! No one got hit!

and the Reapers barriers would not go down in one hit.

Lasers go through barriers. Heat from the cannons, go through barriers. The energy from a nuke goes through barriers. Particle beams seem to be very effective against barriers. See a pattern?

They can also reduce mass on a dime and dodge it whereas allied forces cannot.

This makes them VERY vulnerable to regular cannon fire. This is actually a good thing.

Thanix cannons would have caused a lasting scar on reaper forces but at best you would have turned their victory from a sure thing to slightly pyrrhic victory.  They win regardless.

We use more than just Thanix cannons. Better tech, better tactics, and the Geth, would've saved the day despite heavy losses.

[Shaigunjoe]

silentassassin264 wrote...
That dark energy theory is not a debunked rumor.  That was damage control after it opened the floodgates.  You could plainly tell from the main story of ME2, it was supposed to be about humans being special hence why you had to fight this special human Reaper at the end.  That was all scrapped and it was obvious.  You are in denial if you can't see that.  

Proof: You have none.  I see no connection to special human reaper and dark energy.  There is nothing that is plain about this in ME2.  Even the original article just gave Drew K quotes without a source, and it wasn't an interview.  So yes, debunked.

And like I said, even if it was true, would you had preffered something that was about taking care of the environment?

[Ticonderoga117]

Scott2998 wrote...
The difference between Element Zero and the Crucible is that circumstances to the crucible did happen as far as design and development.

See: Manhatten Project

Uhm, no. The scientists there knew what it was goign to do. Explode!
They knew what they were making.
It was not discovered in a convient cave for Oppenheimer to find and then build blindly.

How we got the plans were stupid. (Passed down through the cycles? Pffft, please.)
How we found them. (GET YOUR BUTT TO MARS! where we conviently have been studying the same thing for 30 years, and no one thought a superweapon would need attention? Riiight)
How it's designed. (Yeah, so we have these metal shields around the front of it that will jsut be ejected anyway, with a spinning thing. Why? Because we can.)
How everyone building it didn't have a clue what it did. (Hey, this seems a lot like a big Eezo core with engines to move it around. Huh.... NOPE! No clue what it does.)

So no, the two are not similiar.

[Ticonderoga117]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
That dark energy theory is not a debunked rumor.  That was damage control after it opened the floodgates.  You could plainly tell from the main story of ME2, it was supposed to be about humans being special hence why you had to fight this special human Reaper at the end.  That was all scrapped and it was obvious.  You are in denial if you can't see that.  

Proof: You have none.  I see no connection to special human reaper and dark energy.  There is nothing that is plain about this in ME2.  Even the original article just gave Drew K quotes without a source, and it wasn't an interview.  So yes, debunked.

And like I said, even if it was true, would you had preffered something that was about taking care of the environment?

Harby basically said humans were special in this cycle. We find out the Reapers are making a human one.
Everyone and thier mother is worried about Dark Energy and stars. Gee, foreshadowing! At least until BioWare shot it in the head and make up something COMPLETELY different for this ending.

[silentassassin264]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
That dark energy theory is not a debunked rumor.  That was damage control after it opened the floodgates.  You could plainly tell from the main story of ME2, it was supposed to be about humans being special hence why you had to fight this special human Reaper at the end.  That was all scrapped and it was obvious.  You are in denial if you can't see that.  

Proof: You have none.  I see no connection to special human reaper and dark energy.  There is nothing that is plain about this in ME2.  Even the original article just gave Drew K quotes without a source, and it wasn't an interview.  So yes, debunked.

And like I said, even if it was true, would you had preffered something that was about taking care of the environment?

Yes I do.  Karpyshyn said originally that his plan was that the reapers were trying to hold back this dark energy build up from destroying the galaxy and that the human genetic potential was needed to make their ultimate defense against it.  It was going to be paragon to say eff it and you would do things your way or renegade, sacrifice humanity to complete the Reaper mission.

http://www.strategyi...ffect-3-endings 

The human genetic potenital was tied to the dark energy plot which is why despite hearing human genetic potential a billion times in ME2, it is not mentioned once in ME3.  So no, not debunked because Stevie Wonder could see that they changed the course.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 07 juillet 2012 - 03:00 .

[Binary_Helix 1]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

It appears to me you are just making stuff up.  What top staff is leaving (they did lose a lot of personal post swtor but thats pretty regular for an MMO and it wasn't top brass)  Drew is still working on a novel for swtor despite not working for BW anymore, so probably no bad blood there, and how exactly was he 'fighting for every single thing' and what was this different vision he had?

The guy who created DAO also left Bioware. Maybe you should actually get informed?

Have you even played ME1? It's very different than it's sequels. That's Drew's vision right there. A much more science focused game where everybody wears combat hardsuits as oppossed to having squadmates who fight in nothing but a bra. Drew was more of a science guy his dark energy ending even alludes to that. Casey and Mac are more fantasy oriented types. Nevertheless their different approaches balanced well enough to where ME2 was a a success. ME3 is where Casey and Mac took over completely and it shows. Ninja enemies, Prothean squadmates, the Crucible, Star Child, etc. It wasn't all bad but their vision isn't the same as Drew's.

Just more making stuff up. You aren't even providing specifics and links. Brent Knowles (who wasn't the creator of DAO BTW) left, and that was back in 2010 (not lately!)  Drew is actually more of a fantasy guy, which is why he prefers writing star wars AND left BW to work on his own FANTASY series.

What about his dark energy?  That was also a debunked rumor, how can you even mention that? You do realize, that if the dark energy plot was true, it would have turned the entire message of mass effect into one about environmentalism?  Mass Effect covers a lot of topics, but I don't think it ever even touches environmentalism.

Brent was the lead on DAO who left within the last few years. How is that not recent? You should be a political spin doctor.

Drew in the Mass Effect context was not a fantasy guy as I explained. His other work is of no concern when discussing ME.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 07 juillet 2012 - 03:01 .

[Shaigunjoe]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
That dark energy theory is not a debunked rumor.  That was damage control after it opened the floodgates.  You could plainly tell from the main story of ME2, it was supposed to be about humans being special hence why you had to fight this special human Reaper at the end.  That was all scrapped and it was obvious.  You are in denial if you can't see that.  

Proof: You have none.  I see no connection to special human reaper and dark energy.  There is nothing that is plain about this in ME2.  Even the original article just gave Drew K quotes without a source, and it wasn't an interview.  So yes, debunked.

And like I said, even if it was true, would you had preffered something that was about taking care of the environment?

Harby basically said humans were special in this cycle. We find out the Reapers are making a human one.
Everyone and thier mother is worried about Dark Energy and stars. Gee, foreshadowing! At least until BioWare shot it in the head and make up something COMPLETELY different for this ending.

I don't recall anything about dark energy with the exception of the Tali mission.  Everybody and there mother were not worried about it, I think just the quarians, but they certainly did not seemed that worried.  Human's could be special for a number of reasons, but their diversity to stop the spread of dark energy?  Really?

I still say this is just a rumor, but if bioware did shoot it in the head, then they made the right move.

[naes1984]

God, this forum topic is getting cantankerous.

[Scott2998]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Scott2998 wrote...
The difference between Element Zero and the Crucible is that circumstances to the crucible did happen as far as design and development.

See: Manhatten Project

Uhm, no. The scientists there knew what it was goign to do. Explode!
They knew what they were making.
It was not discovered in a convient cave for Oppenheimer to find and then build blindly.

How we got the plans were stupid. (Passed down through the cycles? Pffft, please.)
How we found them. (GET YOUR BUTT TO MARS! where we conviently have been studying the same thing for 30 years, and no one thought a superweapon would need attention? Riiight)
How it's designed. (Yeah, so we have these metal shields around the front of it that will jsut be ejected anyway, with a spinning thing. Why? Because we can.)
How everyone building it didn't have a clue what it did. (Hey, this seems a lot like a big Eezo core with engines to move it around. Huh.... NOPE! No clue what it does.)

So no, the two are not similiar.

No, they had theories. They didn't even know what the original material would be (this is where the term Unobtanium came from). As a matter of fact they weren't even 100% sure the Hiroshma bomb would go off.  


Sure they didn't find it in a cave, but neither did you. The Crucible plans were found in the original archive that humanity used to find out Charon was really a Mass Relay.  

War is a dangerous place to put your most important piece of equipment. I'd probably put some extra armor on it too. What's so unbelievable about that? Of course, if your suspension of disbelief ends at protective shielding then I see we aren't going to get anywhere so have fun.

[Ticonderoga117]

Shaigunjoe wrote...
I don't recall anything about dark energy with the exception of the Tali mission.  Everybody and there mother were not worried about it, I think just the quarians, but they certainly did not seemed that worried.  Human's could be special for a number of reasons, but their diversity to stop the spread of dark energy?  Really?

I still say this is just a rumor, but if bioware did shoot it in the head, then they made the right move.

Gianna Parsini or however you spell her name mentions it too. It was the biggest foreshadowing in the game besides "The Reapers are coming!"

"Hey! Here's Dark Energy and it seems to be killing stars! Yeah, this is bad, but hold onto that thought for later ok?"

Then it died horribly in some writers mind, because being consistent is apparently just too hard.

[silentassassin264]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
Thanix cannons did not even oneshot the Collector Ship which was inferior to an actual Reaper and you forget that the Reapers were still shredding your army like it was nothing.

Charging in the open does that. That's what you get having an Admiral lead ground forces.

 You may reduce the amount of dreadnoughts required for victory with adding Thanixes everywhere but it doesn't change the fact that one shot kills an allied force ship

FTL in, fire while the Reapers are turning, FTL out. Hey! No one got hit!

and the Reapers barriers would not go down in one hit.

Lasers go through barriers. Heat from the cannons, go through barriers. The energy from a nuke goes through barriers. Particle beams seem to be very effective against barriers. See a pattern?

They can also reduce mass on a dime and dodge it whereas allied forces cannot.

This makes them VERY vulnerable to regular cannon fire. This is actually a good thing.

Thanix cannons would have caused a lasting scar on reaper forces but at best you would have turned their victory from a sure thing to slightly pyrrhic victory.  They win regardless.

We use more than just Thanix cannons. Better tech, better tactics, and the Geth, would've saved the day despite heavy losses.

Do you really think that if you start trying to FTL in and out and do hit and run strikes, the Reapers were just going to stand there and derp around and let you hit them?  You have to split up and break formation to do that in which they can just split up and Oculus spam you as you exit FTL.  The Reapers can also FTL in and out strike you back, way harder.   All you can do by doing that is delay the inevitable.  The reapers are still destroying your supply lines and you are trying to drag the war out.  Time is not on your side since the Reapers do not need to recharge ammo or discharge energy cores.  You do.  You will also lose when your base all belong to them and you are out of eezo. 

As I said before.  If the galaxy had been preparing for the inevitability of this after the Battle of the Citadel and had improved supply lines etc. for years in anticipation, I would give you a fighting chance with this plan or conventional war period.  As it is, the ignored the threat until they were hit.  It makes no sense for them to be completely unprepared and then pull off a David vs Goliath for the ages.