271 réponses à ce sujet

[Andy the Black]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Kamfrenchie wrote...

What makes you people think the reapers outnumber the allied forces ? IF that was the case the crucible would never make it halfwy through to the citadel.

Sure, Sovereign was powerful in Mass Effect 1, but we didnt know how the other reapers would be. In fact it would seeem logical to think overeign would be one of the strongest reappers since his role is so important.
And only his barriers made him so strong, he fell quickly when they went out.
Then we had weapons piercing barriers.

SInce we had no real idea of the numbers of the reapers before ME3, I thought it was logical e could win without a DEM.
Then they decided to come up with billlions of reapers and Sovereign class destroyers, make TIM stupid, make every officer stupid (hackett didn't even kill a destrooyer at the beginning, th defense commitee is incompetent and stupid etc)

The axis were a formidable ennemy but were defeated convntionnaly. It was still a bloody war with many losses. Conventional victory doesn't mean we just charge at them in a massive battle.
An enemy doesn't need t have super power to be effective. Even humans can work well as a threat to the galaxy if the story is done well.

Heck, the Balrog gets killed by gandalf with sword and magic, not a mac guffin/DEM, but it's still a badass, powerfl, threatening demon

If anything, DEM reduce the merit of the heroes, since they survive almost only through sheerr luck

The Reapers outnumber the victory forces because they don't get a clear shot to the citadel for the crucible until Harbinger and crew breaks off to stop hammer.  Alsoif you haven't noticed, the Reapers have full armies on each system at the end of the game and you are taking the allied forces largest force to face the Reapers in Sol.  And I know all you convential types don't believe the catalyst but there is a reason it balks like you are insane when you suggest not using the Crucible since you are vastly outnumbered.  

Also, Gandalf perry much dies of exhaustion after his fight with the Balrog. And he was a demigod... of sorts.

[silentassassin264]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
They had an incredibly advantage against the victory fleet.  There was no reason to run around.  Only one Reaper Capital ship takes in significant damage in the the cutscenes at the end,  It isn't even confirmed destroyed after all the hits on it because it never completely explodes.

We still had a range advantage. We got the first shot off. And this is reason to run around, so you don't get shot by the Reapers. You dont' want to make it easy for them.

And by supply lines I was referring to said discharging of cores as well.  Do you think the Reapers are just going to ignore fuel depots and let you refuel and comeback continuously?  If you notice in the galaxy maps, most fuel depots are attacked and destroyed anyway.   You can expect the Reapers will take every station they can and every gas giant used for discharging to prevent that tactic.  It is not going to work.

Any planet can be used for discharging. Fuel can be carried via transports like the Navy does today. While not the best situation, it's still workable.

And I never played World in Conflict but the whole point in the Mass Effect series was that the Reapers were coming and they were way stronger than us so we had better get our act together.  It was never about coming together and overcoming stuff.

Uh, what?
ME1- Human commander comes along, gathers a team of badasses, kills Space Cthulu.
ME2- Same Human commander gets ressurected, gathers an even larger team of badasses, kills most of the Collectors and another Reaper.

Mass Effect has ALWAYS been about coming together and beating the odds. While not on a galactic scale, that is what ME3 was for.

In Mass Effect 1, it is about humanity coming in and saving everyone's bacon in the climax and earning their place on the galactic stage before handing out the better get ready speech.

Thanks to all the crew he picked up...

  In ME2, it is about Shepard being space Jesus basically.

Thanks to all the crew he picked up, because if he got them all killed, he doesn't survive.

 And in ME3 even if the theme was about everyone coming together and overcoming, it is too late.  It makes the unstoppable force you found out about in ME1 kind of stupid if you can wait until you are already on the ropes, call out to the pony goddess of friendship, and then erase three years of herping and derping. 

Well, if the Galaxy actually began to use thier brains and built CRAZY amounts of ships, then it's totally do-able.

The process has happened before. The US built transport ships in a crazy amount of time in WW2. Same could be applied to Starships, granted, at a slower scale. You know how handy the Geth could be? You no longer have to fully crew a ship, just have the support to allow the Geth to aim and fire.

The whole crew arguments are moot because it is never about diversity and coming together.  In ME1 you don't have to recruit Garrus and can kill Wrex and insult Tali because you don't want her on the ship.  In your speech when you take over the Normandy, you can talk about how humanity is in it alone (which hilarously pans to Wrex and Garrus on your ship).   In ME2, it is also not about diversity in your team.  They are coming together to fight something big and largely come because it is filled with a bunch of deathseekers and atoners.

And if you know history in WW2, that was insanely easy to pull off because we had been in a war economy since the beginning basically.  FDR couldn't get in immediately like he wanted but he had the lend-lease act so we could at least make stuff to sell to the allies.  Once we joined after Pearl Harbor, it was just a matter of keeping the production up with men actually going to fight (Rosie the Riveter helped kind of).  In ME3, they had completely ignored the Reaper threat until their homeworld were burning.  That would be like the US not doing anything war related until Hitler defeated all the allies in Europe and tag teammed with Japan to invade the US.  Once we let them march on our shores at their own leisure, it would have been way too late to do anything.

[KBronx17]

Andy the Black wrote...

KBronx17 wrote...

Andy the Black wrote...

I don't remember it ever beeing said a contional victory was possible. Infact I tought it was pretty obvious it wasn't going to happen after Sovereign started one shotitng dreadnoughts at the end of Mass 1. Even if that didn't make it clear then the shot at the end of Mass 2 should have. Maybe it might have been possible if the galaxie hadn't had it's head buried in it's arse for the last 3 years and somthing to prepare, even then I think the chances were slim, at best.

Shepard was always about "finding a way", that said to me he/she knew there was no contional victory.  Not to mention it would have cheepend the Reapers if it was possible, much like how the Borg were cheapend in Voyager by Janeways numerous wins over them.

However, I do agree that the Crucible is a bit of a deus ex machina. Bringing in a super weapon in the last act? Bit lame. Would have been better if it was brought in at the end of Mass 2, maybe even in Arrival.

Does it really matter if they said conventional victory is possible? Did anyone say that Shepard could defeat Sovereign? Did anyone say Shepard could pass through the Omega 4 Relay, survive the Suicide Mission, and defeat the Collectors? Why would it matter if somebody "says" that conventional victory is possible?

Just the other day, I was playing one of the side missions in ME2, and a Blue Suns person that ran the facility told me that "You will not leave this facility alive!". Then, also in the last couple days, I encountered Niftu Cal, who said "I am a biotic god!". That being said, Niftu also happened to be high or something so I guess my example carries less weight......

My point is that it doesn't matter if someone says something in the series....if its within the distant realm of possiblity, I firmly believe that Shepard is capable of it (which includes beating the Reapers conventionally). Perhaps we have a different definition of a conventional victory, but I cannot disagree more with this post.

OK, I see your point I really do. But that comment was more aimed at the people that had said it had been implied that a conventional victory was possible in Mass 1 and 2.
Also, the things you bring up as examples aren't even on the same scale as a full on Reaper invasion.

I'm new to the forums...what does it mean that people believed that you could win conventionally against the Reapers in ME1 and ME2? Does that mean that you would just wipe out the Reapers for good in one of the first two, and render ME3 obselete? Huh?

And yeah, I suppose the extent is much different, but the two big ones (Sovereign and defeating the Collectors) are definetely comparable in my mind, although they were admittedly on a smaller scale. With the Collectors, you're going in there as one ship and taking down an entire race....on its home turf. Not to mention you kick a human reaper's behind. Now of course, this is a pawn race for the Reapers, and not the Reapers themselves, but with ME3 you get a whole army of War Assets at your disposal. Plus, and maybe this is idealism, but I'd like to think that while the Reapers cannot adapt to the present ME universe, but the ME universe can adapt to the strength of the Reapers by unifying and fighting with strategy and as a collective unit.

To clarify, I'm not saying that the Reapers have never adapted. They've obviously adapted to dominating the universe over time, which is why they have become so strong. But since the universe is just now unifying and gaining leverage, the universe is leveling the playing field and at least have a shot at conventionally defeating the Reapers, despite the fact that it is a slim one. But hey, isn't Shepard all about overcoming impossible odds?

And thus, you can see now why I made the comparison (cases in which Shepard overcame astronomical odds, albeit on a smaller scale)

[wantedman dan]

Andy the Black wrote...

Also, Gandalf perry much dies of exhaustion after his fight with the Balrog. And he was a demigod... of sorts.

Gandalf is a testament to how beneficial it is to be pleasing to the gods in LOTR's universe. He only became a quasidemi-god after dying.

[Ticonderoga117]

silentassassin264 wrote...
The whole crew arguments are moot because it is never about diversity and coming together.  In ME1 you don't have to recruit Garrus and can kill Wrex and insult Tali because you don't want her on the ship.  In your speech when you take over the Normandy, you can talk about how humanity is in it alone (which hilarously pans to Wrex and Garrus on your ship).   In ME2, it is also not about diversity in your team.  They are coming together to fight something big and largely come because it is filled with a bunch of deathseekers and atoners.

You still die if everyone doesn't work together (Is loyal) and they all end up dead. Plus, Shepard says it himself, either his old team, or the best of what's left. If the crew was simply Shepard and some other humans, there would've been no chance. Same for ME1.

And if you know history in WW2, that was insanely easy to pull off because we had been in a war economy since the beginning basically.  FDR couldn't get in immediately like he wanted but he had the lend-lease act so we could at least make stuff to sell to the allies.  Once we joined after Pearl Harbor, it was just a matter of keeping the production up with men actually going to fight (Rosie the Riveter helped kind of).  In ME3, they had completely ignored the Reaper threat until their homeworld were burning.  That would be like the US not doing anything war related until Hitler defeated all the allies in Europe and tag teammed with Japan to invade the US.  Once we let them march on our shores at their own leisure, it would have been way too late to do anything.

And you think the Alliance didn't start doing anything? We see at the beginning the fleets were good to go (or so they thought). Since the Alliance was watching and prepped, the other major powers would be since they wouldn't want to be below the Alliance in case humans started something.

Also, I think you are highly underestimating the industrial potential of the entire galaxy even after the attack. The Reapers can't be in force everywhere, or simply everywhere.

[silentassassin264]

KBronx17 wrote...

I'm new to the forums...what does it mean that people believed that you could win conventionally against the Reapers in ME1 and ME2? Does that mean that you would just wipe out the Reapers for good in one of the first two, and render ME3 obselete? Huh?

And yeah, I suppose the extent is much different, but the two big ones (Sovereign and defeating the Collectors) are definetely comparable in my mind, although they were admittedly on a smaller scale. With the Collectors, you're going in there as one ship and taking down an entire race....on its home turf. Not to mention you kick a human reaper's behind. Now of course, this is a pawn race for the Reapers, and not the Reapers themselves, but with ME3 you get a whole army of War Assets at your disposal. Plus, and maybe this is idealism, but I'd like to think that while the Reapers cannot adapt to the present ME universe, but the ME universe can adapt to the strength of the Reapers by unifying and fighting with strategy and as a collective unit.

To clarify, I'm not saying that the Reapers have never adapted. They've obviously adapted to dominating the universe over time, which is why they have become so strong. But since the universe is just now unifying and gaining leverage, the universe is leveling the playing field and at least have a shot at conventionally defeating the Reapers, despite the fact that it is a slim one. But hey, isn't Shepard all about overcoming impossible odds?

And thus, you can see now why I made the comparison (cases in which Shepard overcame astronomical odds, albeit on a smaller scale)

What I am saying at least is that if preparations were made to defeat the Reapers beginning in ME1, then I would have at least given it a possibility of victory in ME3 without the crucible.  I am not saying you can have averted the war in ME1 or ME2.

And as far as the Collectors being an entire race, They were a space station full of indoctrinated mooks.  It is not like defeated the entire race of Collectors was something terribly hard.  The only reason the suicide mission was dubbed as suicide mission was no one knew what was going to happen when we got to the other side.  There was no intel or anything.  If had been a legit planet of Collectors, we would have likely been screwed.  As it was, it was a cakewalk if you had a full compliment.

[Dusen]

IMO, Drew's original idea for ME3 (dark matter, etc) was just about as terrible as the ones we got for the simple reason that none of our choices throughout the series made any difference to the ending (not to mention it too character-assassinated the reapers).

I think the best endings would have been the most obvious: galaxy comes together as one thanks to events in ME1 and ME2 that stopped early Reaper plans and made alliances. Reapers' true motives and beginnings are not revealed and they are left as a terrifying and mysterious enemy that must be stopped and cannot be reasoned with. The united force is able to defeat the reapers through guerrilla tactics, reaper-derived tech, etc thanks to choices made during the series (curing Genophage, saving Rachni queen, etc.). The force either wins or loses with a modicum of other outcomes in between. Long-lasting results of these endings are shown and Shepard rides off into sunset with love interest (if they survived and succeeded in defeating the reapers) The End.

[Ticonderoga117]

silentassassin264 wrote...
If had been a legit planet of Collectors, we would have likely been screwed.  As it was, it was a cakewalk if you had a full compliment.

Considering the Space Station could've held thousands of Collectors... it's still a suicide mission for 12 people. One can say that it's a similiar ratio as the Galaxy fighting the Reapers... huh....

[silentassassin264]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
The whole crew arguments are moot because it is never about diversity and coming together.  In ME1 you don't have to recruit Garrus and can kill Wrex and insult Tali because you don't want her on the ship.  In your speech when you take over the Normandy, you can talk about how humanity is in it alone (which hilarously pans to Wrex and Garrus on your ship).   In ME2, it is also not about diversity in your team.  They are coming together to fight something big and largely come because it is filled with a bunch of deathseekers and atoners.

You still die if everyone doesn't work together (Is loyal) and they all end up dead. Plus, Shepard says it himself, either his old team, or the best of what's left. If the crew was simply Shepard and some other humans, there would've been no chance. Same for ME1.

And if you know history in WW2, that was insanely easy to pull off because we had been in a war economy since the beginning basically.  FDR couldn't get in immediately like he wanted but he had the lend-lease act so we could at least make stuff to sell to the allies.  Once we joined after Pearl Harbor, it was just a matter of keeping the production up with men actually going to fight (Rosie the Riveter helped kind of).  In ME3, they had completely ignored the Reaper threat until their homeworld were burning.  That would be like the US not doing anything war related until Hitler defeated all the allies in Europe and tag teammed with Japan to invade the US.  Once we let them march on our shores at their own leisure, it would have been way too late to do anything.

And you think the Alliance didn't start doing anything? We see at the beginning the fleets were good to go (or so they thought). Since the Alliance was watching and prepped, the other major powers would be since they wouldn't want to be below the Alliance in case humans started something.

Also, I think you are highly underestimating the industrial potential of the entire galaxy even after the attack. The Reapers can't be in force everywhere, or simply everywhere.

If you recruit everyone for ME2, even if they are not loyal you still will not die.  You have to actively be trying to fail the suicide mission to lose the suicide mission.  As as far as having a few humans, If your team just consists of a loyal Miranda, Zaeed, Jack, and Kasumi and you leave Zaeed to hold the line, you will live (obviously sending Kasumi into the pipes, Jack to shield, and Miranda at fireteam both times).  You don't really need that much to win the suicide mission.  

And the alliance did something really late and it got toasted because it was half assed.  If they had planned for three years to set up fortified observation posts (preferably VI controlled) and had decent anti-AI counter measures as well as an appreciable amount of Dreadnoughts, they might not have been rolled over like they weren't there.  The point is, they waited too late.  The Defense Council at the beginning wasn't even sure it was the Reapers.  The idiot alliance didn't even know who the enemy was.  That is how much they prepared.  And that is why there should not be any chance for a conventional victory.

[Shaigunjoe]

Dusen wrote...

IMO, Drew's original idea for ME3 (dark matter, etc) was just about as terrible as the ones we got for the simple reason that none of our choices throughout the series made any difference to the ending (not to mention it too character-assassinated the reapers).

I think the best endings would have been the most obvious: galaxy comes together as one thanks to events in ME1 and ME2 that stopped early Reaper plans and made alliances. Reapers' true motives and beginnings are not revealed and they are left as a terrifying and mysterious enemy that must be stopped and cannot be reasoned with. The united force is able to defeat the reapers through guerrilla tactics, reaper-derived tech, etc thanks to choices made during the series (curing Genophage, saving Rachni queen, etc.). The force either wins or loses with a modicum of other outcomes in between. Long-lasting results of these endings are shown and Shepard rides off into sunset with love interest (if they survived and succeeded in defeating the reapers) The End.

I agree that the dark matter is pretty terrible, but I think the origin/motivation of the reapers they gave use were a really good thematic fit.

[Binary_Helix 1]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

No, you said it was his vision.  Nowhere is that backed.

When you are discussing a writer's tone and/or prefered style, you do not need to stick to any one work of fiction.

Also, I would disagree with you about Kai Leng in the books, he was definitly a ninja assassin, much more so than the novels as he was much better at being stealthy in the books and tried to avoid outright combat and lenghty (and pointless!) monolouges.

And it looks like you are resorting to ad hominem, stay classy.

I said ME1 was Drew's vision. Learn to read. I only said dark energy alluded to the direction he may have wanted to take ME.

Don't accuse me of "making stuff up" and then whine that I'm insulting you. I think you read way to much into offical denials without even acknowledging the possibility there is more to the story.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 07 juillet 2012 - 04:34 .

[silentassassin264]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
If had been a legit planet of Collectors, we would have likely been screwed.  As it was, it was a cakewalk if you had a full compliment.

Considering the Space Station could've held thousands of Collectors... it's still a suicide mission for 12 people. One can say that it's a similiar ratio as the Galaxy fighting the Reapers... huh....

The Collectors were not some impressive enemy.  They were stupid mooks.  And it isn't even the first time Shepard storms a space station in ME2 (Purgatory now defunct).   The collector base was a whole lot easier than it looked because it had no defenses and they were caught completely off guard because they never expected anyone to get through the Omega-4 relay.  It should have or could have been harder but you essentially get the same jump on them that the Reapers get on the allies in ME3.  

Plus Shepard counts as an army on her/his own so that negates the numbers advantage.  Even on the worse possible playthrough, Shepard still finishes the mission.  No one is there to help her/him back on the Ship though because Joker is a pathetic cripple.

One cybernetic Jesus expy soldier fighting an army of brainless insects is a far better option than and armada of God machines versus unorganized, unprepared, low tech hippies.  It really isn't comparable.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 07 juillet 2012 - 04:37 .

[Ticonderoga117]

silentassassin264 wrote...
If you recruit everyone for ME2, even if they are not loyal you still will not die.  You have to actively be trying to fail the suicide mission to lose the suicide mission.  As as far as having a few humans, If your team just consists of a loyal Miranda, Zaeed, Jack, and Kasumi and you leave Zaeed to hold the line, you will live (obviously sending Kasumi into the pipes, Jack to shield, and Miranda at fireteam both times).  You don't really need that much to win the suicide mission.  

And the alliance did something really late and it got toasted because it was half assed.  If they had planned for three years to set up fortified observation posts (preferably VI controlled) and had decent anti-AI counter measures as well as an appreciable amount of Dreadnoughts, they might not have been rolled over like they weren't there.  The point is, they waited too late.  The Defense Council at the beginning wasn't even sure it was the Reapers.  The idiot alliance didn't even know who the enemy was.  That is how much they prepared.  And that is why there should not be any chance for a conventional victory.

Well, I still believe fully, that a major theme of Mass Effect was "Working together, we can overcome the odds."
Javik says something similiar and states that's why they couldn't win at all.

And everything you said about the Alliance, especially the Defense Council, is yeah, that's why we couldn't win. Because the writers made everyone a moron and couldn't fight out of a wet paper bag.

Now, like I've said before, if we really need a plot device, then sure. But it needs to be handled better. It needs to make sense. We need to ram things home that we need something like it. Fighting on Earth for one mission and then having Hackett yell over the comm doesn't count.

Honestly, we can go on all night and day about this. Depends on how the writers want to tell thier story and whether or not they allow thier characters to think and come up with some actual innovations for once.

However, Archengia(SP?) actually did a fan made ending that had a much better "conventional" victory.

[Binary_Helix 1]

Dusen wrote...

IMO, Drew's original idea for ME3 (dark matter, etc) was just about as terrible as the ones we got for the simple reason that none of our choices throughout the series made any difference to the ending (not to mention it too character-assassinated the reapers).

I think the best endings would have been the most obvious: galaxy comes together as one thanks to events in ME1 and ME2 that stopped early Reaper plans and made alliances. Reapers' true motives and beginnings are not revealed and they are left as a terrifying and mysterious enemy that must be stopped and cannot be reasoned with. The united force is able to defeat the reapers through guerrilla tactics, reaper-derived tech, etc thanks to choices made during the series (curing Genophage, saving Rachni queen, etc.). The force either wins or loses with a modicum of other outcomes in between. Long-lasting results of these endings are shown and Shepard rides off into sunset with love interest (if they survived and succeeded in defeating the reapers) The End.

Agreed.

[Ticonderoga117]

silentassassin264 wrote...
The Collectors were not some impressive enemy.  They were stupid mooks.  And it isn't even the first time Shepard storms a space station in ME2 (Purgatory now defunct).   The collector base was a whole lot easier than it looked because it had no defenses and they were caught completely off guard because they never expected anyone to get through the Omega-4 relay.  It should have or could have been harder but you essentially get the same jump on them that the Reapers get on the allies in ME3.  

Plus Shepard counts as an army on her/his own so that negates the numbers advantage.  Even on the worse possible playthrough, Shepard still finishes the mission.  No one is there to help her/him back on the Ship though because Joker is a pathetic cripple.

Well considering they are able to kill Shepard and the best ship in the fleet without taking a single hit says they are credible.

Shepard never stormed a station like this before. Purgatory had a few guards and mechs, not filled to the brim with Collector's and husks.

However, everything else that you say helps the "We can win this conventionally."
-We had the jump on them. Could pull a similiar operation on the Reapers multiple times.
-Shepard is an army by themselves. Sure.
-Collectors were overconfident. So are the Reapers.

[silentassassin264]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
If you recruit everyone for ME2, even if they are not loyal you still will not die.  You have to actively be trying to fail the suicide mission to lose the suicide mission.  As as far as having a few humans, If your team just consists of a loyal Miranda, Zaeed, Jack, and Kasumi and you leave Zaeed to hold the line, you will live (obviously sending Kasumi into the pipes, Jack to shield, and Miranda at fireteam both times).  You don't really need that much to win the suicide mission.  

And the alliance did something really late and it got toasted because it was half assed.  If they had planned for three years to set up fortified observation posts (preferably VI controlled) and had decent anti-AI counter measures as well as an appreciable amount of Dreadnoughts, they might not have been rolled over like they weren't there.  The point is, they waited too late.  The Defense Council at the beginning wasn't even sure it was the Reapers.  The idiot alliance didn't even know who the enemy was.  That is how much they prepared.  And that is why there should not be any chance for a conventional victory.

Well, I still believe fully, that a major theme of Mass Effect was "Working together, we can overcome the odds."
Javik says something similiar and states that's why they couldn't win at all.

And everything you said about the Alliance, especially the Defense Council, is yeah, that's why we couldn't win. Because the writers made everyone a moron and couldn't fight out of a wet paper bag.

Now, like I've said before, if we really need a plot device, then sure. But it needs to be handled better. It needs to make sense. We need to ram things home that we need something like it. Fighting on Earth for one mission and then having Hackett yell over the comm doesn't count.

Honestly, we can go on all night and day about this. Depends on how the writers want to tell thier story and whether or not they allow thier characters to think and come up with some actual innovations for once.

However, Archengia(SP?) actually did a fan made ending that had a much better "conventional" victory.

If you are saying the Crucible is stupid then agree.  The planet Ploba had been hinted to be a Jupiter brain supercomputer structure in the first 2 games and I think any Deus Ex Machina should have involved Ploba since it was legitimately foreshadowed.  Finding a ancient Prothean superweapon on an archive that you have known about for 30 years is just god awful writing.  The whole main story line in ME3 was horribly contrived.  I believe we needed a Deus Ex machina plot device but it should have been a heck of a lot better than what was delivered.

[Shaigunjoe]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

I said ME1 was Drew's vision. Learn to read. I only said dark energy alluded to the direction he may have wanted to take ME.

Don't accuse me of "making stuff up" and then whine that I'm insulting you. I think you read way to much into offical denials without even acknowledging the possibility there is more to the story.

Apparently I'm not the one that struggles with reading comprehension, here is your quote:

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...
Drew was more of a science guy his dark
energy ending even alludes to that.

If you read his official statement, instead of making stuff up, then you would see that the dark energy ending is not his ending.  If Drew comes out with a statement that says 'hey, this was my ending' then I'll eat my words as it won't be a big deal, but until then, I will maintain you are making things up as you have no evidence to the contrary.

Another fact you  made up, ME1 was not Drew's vision, it was mostly Casey Hudsons, you can read about that in the ME1 CE art book.

You can say I read to much into official denials, but I would prefer that to back words on the internet that anyone could type.

[silentassassin264]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
The Collectors were not some impressive enemy.  They were stupid mooks.  And it isn't even the first time Shepard storms a space station in ME2 (Purgatory now defunct).   The collector base was a whole lot easier than it looked because it had no defenses and they were caught completely off guard because they never expected anyone to get through the Omega-4 relay.  It should have or could have been harder but you essentially get the same jump on them that the Reapers get on the allies in ME3.  

Plus Shepard counts as an army on her/his own so that negates the numbers advantage.  Even on the worse possible playthrough, Shepard still finishes the mission.  No one is there to help her/him back on the Ship though because Joker is a pathetic cripple.

Well considering they are able to kill Shepard and the best ship in the fleet without taking a single hit says they are credible.

Shepard never stormed a station like this before. Purgatory had a few guards and mechs, not filled to the brim with Collector's and husks.

However, everything else that you say helps the "We can win this conventionally."
-We had the jump on them. Could pull a similiar operation on the Reapers multiple times.
-Shepard is an army by themselves. Sure.
-Collectors were overconfident. So are the Reapers.

They are able to kill you because you don't even know they exist.  That would be like if you went to your kitchen to get some cereal and Kai Leng stabbed you in the back with a sharpened spoon.  You have no chance to win that fight because you have literally no chance to see it coming regardless of how ridiculous it is.   It is not a testament to how good they are.  It just means they came out of nowhere.  Once you know they are there they never get a jump on Shepard again (Joker is another story because he is incompetent at anything besides flying).

Also YMIRs>Any not Praetorian husk

Modifié par silentassassin264, 07 juillet 2012 - 04:54 .

[Dusen]

silentassassin264 wrote...
If you are saying the Crucible is stupid then agree.  The planet Ploba had been hinted to be a Jupiter brain supercomputer structure in the first 2 games and I think any Deus Ex Machina should have involved Ploba since it was legitimately foreshadowed.  Finding a ancient Prothean superweapon on an archive that you have known about for 30 years is just god awful writing.  The whole main story line in ME3 was horribly contrived.  I believe we needed a Deus Ex machina plot device but it should have been a heck of a lot better than what was delivered.

While I disagree that a DEM was required, I have to agree with everything else you said. I could have begrudgingly accepted a DEM if it had been well written and forshadowed. Your mention of Ploba would have been an intersting way to integrate the DEM into the story and series' plot without causing the narrative and logical train wreck that we received.

[Binary_Helix 1]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

I said ME1 was Drew's vision. Learn to read. I only said dark energy alluded to the direction he may have wanted to take ME.

Don't accuse me of "making stuff up" and then whine that I'm insulting you. I think you read way to much into offical denials without even acknowledging the possibility there is more to the story.

Apparently I'm not the one that struggles with reading comprehension, here is your quote:

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...
Drew was more of a science guy his dark
energy ending even alludes to that.

If you read his official statement, instead of making stuff up, then you would see that the dark energy ending is not his ending.  If Drew comes out with a statement that says 'hey, this was my ending' then I'll eat my words as it won't be a big deal, but until then, I will maintain you are making things up as you have no evidence to the contrary.

Another fact you  made up, ME1 was not Drew's vision, it was mostly Casey Hudsons, you can read about that in the ME1 CE art book.

You can say I read to much into official denials, but I would prefer that to back words on the internet that anyone could type.

Nothing you posted contradicts what i said. All you're doing is nitpicking and it's getting tiresome. No wonder that other guy stopped responding to you. Again I ask did you believe Bill Clinton too when he denied having sexual relations with Ms Lewinksky? You really do seem that naive.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 07 juillet 2012 - 04:52 .

[Ticonderoga117]

silentassassin264 wrote...
If you are saying the Crucible is stupid then agree.  The planet Ploba had been hinted to be a Jupiter brain supercomputer structure in the first 2 games and I think any Deus Ex Machina should have involved Ploba since it was legitimately foreshadowed.  Finding a ancient Prothean superweapon on an archive that you have known about for 30 years is just god awful writing.  The whole main story line in ME3 was horribly contrived.  I believe we needed a Deus Ex machina plot device but it should have been a heck of a lot better than what was delivered.

Ditto. Here's something:
-Prothean Sphere from Firewalker gives a clue to a Prothean base.
-Arrive at Prothean base, find Javik.
-Javik gives another clue that the Protheans were developing something to disrupt the Reapers.
-Commence hunt for device.
-However, after being built, we find out that it needs the frequency the Reapers use to communicate or what have you.
-Do Horizon mission, get frequency from Cerberus lab.
-Ta-da, a tactical plot device that allows the combined Galactic fleet to gain the upper hand.
-Epic fight against the Reapers.
-Win or lose depending on choices you made in ME3 and previous games. (A more detailed WA thing really.)

And that's just off the top of my head, without any other the scene setting.

[Ticonderoga117]

Dusen wrote...
While I disagree that a DEM was required, I have to agree with everything else you said. I could have begrudgingly accepted a DEM if it had been well written and forshadowed. Your mention of Ploba would have been an intersting way to integrate the DEM into the story and series' plot without causing the narrative and logical train wreck that we received.

Less DEM, more plot device really. I say this because it wouldn't just "fix" everything, but would hinge on your performance in game to determine how well things turn out.

The Catalyst is a DEM, and he should be erased from the game and existance.
He cheapens the Reapers more than anything... *grumble*

[Shaigunjoe]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

I said ME1 was Drew's vision. Learn to read. I only said dark energy alluded to the direction he may have wanted to take ME.

Don't accuse me of "making stuff up" and then whine that I'm insulting you. I think you read way to much into offical denials without even acknowledging the possibility there is more to the story.

Apparently I'm not the one that struggles with reading comprehension, here is your quote:

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...
Drew was more of a science guy his dark
energy ending even alludes to that.

If you read his official statement, instead of making stuff up, then you would see that the dark energy ending is not his ending.  If Drew comes out with a statement that says 'hey, this was my ending' then I'll eat my words as it won't be a big deal, but until then, I will maintain you are making things up as you have no evidence to the contrary.

Another fact you  made up, ME1 was not Drew's vision, it was mostly Casey Hudsons, you can read about that in the ME1 CE art book.

You can say I read to much into official denials, but I would prefer that to back words on the internet that anyone could type.

Nothing you posted contradicts what i said. All you're doing is nitpicking and it's getting tiresome. No wonder that other guy stopped responding to you. Again I ask did you believe Bill Clinton too when he denied having sexual relations with Ms Lewinksky? You really do seem that naive.

It isn't nitpicking.  You are putting words into another author's mouth, words that he has never said, he never claimed to be responsible for the Dark Energy, nor  was ME1 'his vision'.  Saying otherwise is disrespectful.  The first article that was linked to be 'quotes' from Drew K that were not, in fact, quotes from DK.

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 07 juillet 2012 - 05:01 .

[Andy the Black]

KBronx17 wrote...

Andy the Black wrote...

KBronx17 wrote...

Andy the Black wrote...

I don't remember it ever beeing said a contional victory was possible. Infact I tought it was pretty obvious it wasn't going to happen after Sovereign started one shotitng dreadnoughts at the end of Mass 1. Even if that didn't make it clear then the shot at the end of Mass 2 should have. Maybe it might have been possible if the galaxie hadn't had it's head buried in it's arse for the last 3 years and somthing to prepare, even then I think the chances were slim, at best.

Shepard was always about "finding a way", that said to me he/she knew there was no contional victory.  Not to mention it would have cheepend the Reapers if it was possible, much like how the Borg were cheapend in Voyager by Janeways numerous wins over them.

However, I do agree that the Crucible is a bit of a deus ex machina. Bringing in a super weapon in the last act? Bit lame. Would have been better if it was brought in at the end of Mass 2, maybe even in Arrival.

Does it really matter if they said conventional victory is possible? Did anyone say that Shepard could defeat Sovereign? Did anyone say Shepard could pass through the Omega 4 Relay, survive the Suicide Mission, and defeat the Collectors? Why would it matter if somebody "says" that conventional victory is possible?

Just the other day, I was playing one of the side missions in ME2, and a Blue Suns person that ran the facility told me that "You will not leave this facility alive!". Then, also in the last couple days, I encountered Niftu Cal, who said "I am a biotic god!". That being said, Niftu also happened to be high or something so I guess my example carries less weight......

My point is that it doesn't matter if someone says something in the series....if its within the distant realm of possiblity, I firmly believe that Shepard is capable of it (which includes beating the Reapers conventionally). Perhaps we have a different definition of a conventional victory, but I cannot disagree more with this post.

OK, I see your point I really do. But that comment was more aimed at the people that had said it had been implied that a conventional victory was possible in Mass 1 and 2.
Also, the things you bring up as examples aren't even on the same scale as a full on Reaper invasion.

I'm new to the forums...what does it mean that people believed that you could win conventionally against the Reapers in ME1 and ME2? Does that mean that you would just wipe out the Reapers for good in one of the first two, and render ME3 obselete? Huh?

And yeah, I suppose the extent is much different, but the two big ones (Sovereign and defeating the Collectors) are definetely comparable in my mind, although they were admittedly on a smaller scale. With the Collectors, you're going in there as one ship and taking down an entire race....on its home turf. Not to mention you kick a human reaper's behind. Now of course, this is a pawn race for the Reapers, and not the Reapers themselves, but with ME3 you get a whole army of War Assets at your disposal. Plus, and maybe this is idealism, but I'd like to think that while the Reapers cannot adapt to the present ME universe, but the ME universe can adapt to the strength of the Reapers by unifying and fighting with strategy and as a collective unit.

To clarify, I'm not saying that the Reapers have never adapted. They've obviously adapted to dominating the universe over time, which is why they have become so strong. But since the universe is just now unifying and gaining leverage, the universe is leveling the playing field and at least have a shot at conventionally defeating the Reapers, despite the fact that it is a slim one. But hey, isn't Shepard all about overcoming impossible odds?

And thus, you can see now why I made the comparison (cases in which Shepard overcame astronomical odds, albeit on a smaller scale)

All I'm saying is a contional victory isn't implied in the first two games, quite the opposite infact, so people shouldn't really be surprised that there is no option for one in the third game.

And I don't think  Mass 2's final mission is comparable. Yes the odds were against Shep and his team, but they had been perpering long before they even went close the Omega 4 Relay. And they were 12 of the most highly trained soldiers, assassins, tech specialists, and biotics, with the best gear, and one of the most advanced ships in the galaxie going into a space staion full of zombies. And even then they can all still die. The Reapers in Mass 3 have the advantage of surprise (virtually no one believes they even exist till they're literally out the window), tech, organization, experience, and maybe even numbers, going against a galaxie severely unprepared with species not even talking to each other.

Modifié par Andy the Black, 07 juillet 2012 - 05:16 .

[silentassassin264]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...
If you are saying the Crucible is stupid then agree.  The planet Ploba had been hinted to be a Jupiter brain supercomputer structure in the first 2 games and I think any Deus Ex Machina should have involved Ploba since it was legitimately foreshadowed.  Finding a ancient Prothean superweapon on an archive that you have known about for 30 years is just god awful writing.  The whole main story line in ME3 was horribly contrived.  I believe we needed a Deus Ex machina plot device but it should have been a heck of a lot better than what was delivered.

Ditto. Here's something:
-Prothean Sphere from Firewalker gives a clue to a Prothean base.
-Arrive at Prothean base, find Javik.
-Javik gives another clue that the Protheans were developing something to disrupt the Reapers.
-Commence hunt for device.
-However, after being built, we find out that it needs the frequency the Reapers use to communicate or what have you.
-Do Horizon mission, get frequency from Cerberus lab.
-Ta-da, a tactical plot device that allows the combined Galactic fleet to gain the upper hand.
-Epic fight against the Reapers.
-Win or lose depending on choices you made in ME3 and previous games. (A more detailed WA thing really.)

And that's just off the top of my head, without any other the scene setting.

Fine by me.  I wouldn't mind a little RTSing with war assets but that is just me.