66 réponses à ce sujet

[Confederate Republic]

About a year ago there was a topic similar to this asking how you roleplay your City Elf character,

http://social.biowar...7/index/5302868

Though Necro'ing old topics is generally considered a bad, bad thing to do, so, new thread, hurrah.

Essentially, I noticed most people play their City Elves as being very bitter, violent, and racist towards humans, etc. Some play them with a more upbeat personality, though still quite aggressive. Personally, I always like to play helpful/kind characters in RPGs. For some reason I just can't enjoy playing a douchebag character, I always end up feeling like crap afterwards. My first (And current) character is a human noble warrior who goes out of his way to help everyone (Morrigan was at negative approval after Redcliffe, needless to say) Basically just gave my money away to anyone I could help. The robbed elves in Lothering, the Chantry Mother, the kid, the Dust Town lady, etc.

Since this playthrough is almost done, I want to try something different gameplay-wise in my next run, and I thought a DW, Assassin, Stealth, Lockpicky rogue type class would be a fun change from my 2-Handed Warrior, and I often hear the City Elf is one of the best origins, so I've been strongly considering making a Rogue City Elf.

However, I want to know if there is any possible motivation to play a helpful/kind character. Just about everyone makes their elves hateful against humans, but I want to know if there is any way to help humans and dwarves just as much as elves. Are the options to give money still there? Or is every dialog option going to basically be betweem: 

"I'LL PAINT THESE WALLS WITH HUMAN BLOOD!"

Or

"You humans are all racist!"

I think it would be interesting to play a City Elf who still shows compassion even despite everything that's happened to him/her, but I'm not sure if it would work, because I've never actually heard of it.

Essentially I just want to know if this type of motivation, to defeat the Blight to help/save everyone is possible. I've seen one person mention the only reason his/her City Elf became a Grey Warden was so she could kill every human she could. I don't see this as a fine motivation, since the whole point of stopping the Blight is to save the Surface World, which is about 90% human. I fail to see the point in playing a character who would just as soon side with the Darkspawn to see those humans pay.

So, TL;DR, can I play a compassionate City Elf, with a similar motivation as to my Warrior? (Stop the Blight, save everyone.)

[gandanlin]

I usually play my City Elf Warden to be the opposite of the negative (and ill-founded) stereotype of an elf. Instead, he or she is kind, helpful, strong, thoughtful, and considerate. He or she is also highly motivated to see justice served to those who have mistreated or abused elves. Because I figure the Ferelden the Wardens are fighting to save should be worth saving. --Not just for humans and dwarves, but for elves, also.

My Elf warden is heroic, and that heroism makes the segments of Fereldan society that are racist blush with shame.

[Dintonta]

Yes, you can play a forgiving city elf, absolutely!
I actually think that the slight drawback of this brilliantly starting origin is quite the reverse of what you fear. (I am stuck, at present, on a CE, and that's why I'm dwelling on BSN, because I feel that my Tabris can't find any closure for what she suffered from humans, or any true solution to improve the specific lot of her people without going to the haughty and delusionnal dalish.) I have gone through it many times, and at each PT, I felt like if my roguish elven brat was slowly shapechanging into some sort of powerful human lady.
There are indeed some very nice conversations where your elf can still "play elven" and be nice, helpful, or simply communicative toward humans (one with the kid you mentionned in Lothering, and another with Leli are good examples of this.) But usually it's more like there is a "default" storyline written with a human hero in mind, with some conversation entries added to it such as "You don't respect me because I'm an elf!" (to which is usually answered "But... but... no... truly, you must be mistaken.")
Don't worry : Those lines are optional and purely cosmetic (they go nowhere).
Players (including me) are usually drawn to play a Tabris defensive toward humans (to say the least) not because they are eager to play a bloodthirsty "douchbag" (I suppose), but because her/his racism is strongly bolstered by a very intense drama at the beginning (The best I've ever seen in a CRPG, IMHO.) It gives a character much stronger cultural backbone than would do any of your usual abstract fantasy lore.
My problem was actually to not forget this trauma during the many hours of a PT which gives so few reminders of it. I really don't know by which means the players you mentionned managed to keep their Tabris hateful all along!
Another reason why your Tabris could become forgiving, if you play her as a hero from the start and not as a jerk or as a coward, is that she despises humans for their current injustices, not for the race they do belong, nor for some ancient grudge her traditions would hold against them. It do no good to Justice to answer an injustice by another one.
She feel sorry for her kin in the Alienage, because finding herself brave and resourceful much beyond the usual, it lets her have a soft spot for other helpless people.
And, well... all races are full of those during a Blight...

[TEWR]

Faerunner wrote...

Another good motivation is to play an elf that wants to help your people, not just get revenge against humans. Remember, "Denerim's elves are a strong people who take pride in their close communities." I know my elf regards the entire alienage as family, the entire race as an extended community, wants to see them treated fairly and lives to see their lives improved. My elf knows that every action, every word reflects her people (since humans only see her race, not her face), so she goes out of her way to set a positive example and a good impression everywhere she goes, so humans can't help but admire or say good things about elves.

Bah, I was gonna come in and say more or less the same thing. A City Elf that wants to use his/her place in the Wardens to improve the Elves' status.

Damn you for thinking more or less the same thing! =P

[Dintonta]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Faerunner wrote...

Another good motivation is to play an elf that wants to help your people, not just get revenge against humans. Remember, "Denerim's elves are a strong people who take pride in their close communities." I know my elf regards the entire alienage as family, the entire race as an extended community, wants to see them treated fairly and lives to see their lives improved. My elf knows that every action, every word reflects her people (since humans only see her race, not her face), so she goes out of her way to set a positive example and a good impression everywhere she goes, so humans can't help but admire or say good things about elves.

Bah, I was gonna come in and say more or less the same thing. A City Elf that wants to use his/her place in the Wardens to improve the Elves' status.

This is indeed a very good RP motivation, but only if you want to impersonate a very patient or a slightly delusional city elf (which, depending on your mood, tastes and/or beliefs may still be much more pleasant than a bitter one).
Remember Garahel the elven warden hero, a few centuries before the fifth Blight? How his heroics have improved the way humans behave toward elves? His name is not even told to the children in the Alienage (mmh... perhaps was he a dalish?)
Wardens seems to be considered by all races like almost supernatural beings, cut off  from their mundane origins. Human racists will always have it their way, pointing out an elven warden as an exception who do not truly represents his people.
Sure, it is much less harmful to the elven cause than leaving behind you the picture of a rampaging killer who just needed an archdemon because her murderous tendancies were escalating way beyond human scale... Still, it could take some time before humans begin to add 1+1, hence the need for patience... or Faith : What about a strongly Andrastrian CE? (After all, that rogue fellow, Slim Couldry, explains that his own faith was born and bred in the squalor of the Alienage...)

BTW, thanks for the link to the previous "opposite" thread, it's just what my bitter Tabris needed!
And thanks to you too, Faerunner, because I didn't understood before reading the suggestion you made why my Tabris (who is not patient, nor faithful) was so depressed when she was adressed as a Grey Warden for pleasantries and respect, while as an elf for the rest. Probably because it reminded me too much of my RL!

[Confederate Republic]

Many thanks for all the replies! Definitaly some nice insight here on how people play. The motivation about helping his/her people rather then lashing out was an especially good one. I often wondered though, do you think a female City Elf would likely end up more "Bitter" then a Male one?

Also, Dintonta, about being Andrastian, I particularly like this idea, since Andraste was the one who freed the Elves from Tevinter rule, and in the eyes of the Maker, all life is held equal. The only thing about this though, how devoted to the Chantry ORGANIZATION would said Elf likely be? In other words, donations, blessings, etc.

I'd imagine donation, definitaly, since it typically goes to feed and clothe those who need it.

I know a lot of people hate the Chantry because of the whole Mage thing, but I'm asking from the prospective of an Elf Peasent, not a Mage. Would an Elf likely sympathize with them, or see them as walking time bombs to go off?

It was Mages who originally enslaved the Elves, but the Elves also had powerful magic of their own, so....

[Dintonta]

Confederate Republic wrote...

The only thing about this though, how devoted to the Chantry ORGANIZATION would said Elf likely be? In other words, donations, blessings, etc.

I'd imagine donation, definitaly, since it typically goes to feed and clothe those who need it.

IMHO, The faith of a forgiving Andrastrian Tabris could be based :

1) On the community spirit. Both the close and the open ones : In RL, many religions have subsisted against all odds mainly because they gave the asset of a group to people who were in difficult situations, while some have extended to very wide range because, at some time and in some places, they gave an opportunity to unify people beyond social separations and nationalities.
In the DA world, the wedding in the alienage and the Lothering Revered Mother are not far from the first, and Brother Burkel is typical of the second.

2) On the desire to help the needy, thought to be a religious duty and hold with fervor (another side to the "genuine helper motivation" Faerunner has suggested).

3) A need for a bit of simple, genuine, "irrational" support against the hardship of the life in the Alienage. (Very useful, metagame-wise, if you want to match your nice Tabris with Leli -and that's a very good match, romanced or not... Align her/him with the quest of Sacred Ashes and with the quest of Andraste's Tears.)

If you want a little twist into that relationship with the Chantry especially when it comes to ceremony, blessings and lectures, and if you don't mind a minor spoiler on this origin's intro, here is the two cents of my own Tabris (but be very cautious, she is a bitter apple... )

SPOILER...

My own bitter Tabris just hate "sanctimonious, preachy zealots" because each time she sees one it reminds her the one who performed her own wedding ceremony. That smug human girl could only oppose a single "My Lord, this is a wedding!" to Vaughan and his men. Would she had some spine and more trust in her own faith, she could have threatened him. Denerim is the Sacred City of Andraste, the Revered Mother is very powerful (in the Landsmeet she threaten even Loghain) : Never the arl's son would have found the gall to seriously endanger the life of a priest here, would she have thrown hers in the balance. It would have prevented all of which followed. To my Tabris, her silence was a betrayal.

...SPOILER'S END


The positive side of this defiance about the Andrastrian official clergy, metagame-wise, is that it actually helps to match a "genuine-faithful" Andrastrian CE with Leli (again). And it may also help to give him/her some distance with the religion's more rigid aspects...
...Hope that helps for : 

I know a lot of people hate the Chantry because of the whole Mage thing, but I'm asking from the prospective of an Elf Peasent, not a Mage. Would an Elf likely sympathize with them, or see them as walking time bombs to go off?

It was Mages who originally enslaved the Elves, but the Elves also had powerful magic of their own, so....

About that, I also suppose that a "heart-guided" CE, with a rather simple faith, should not worry too much about the theory of what is the true color of magic. That's a thing for templars, scholars, or priests. Simple people, elves or humans, marvel at magic or are scared by it, depending on what they see. (Kester, the boatman gives a good insight of it.) Not very different from fire, really : It can be beautiful to see, warm your pot, or give you a slow and painful death.

About the female vs male Tabris choice, I truly can't give you any tip here. LOL : I rarely fit well in men's shoes.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Just finished my first City Elf playthrough. My City elf started out as a very melancholy man whom only trusted his own kind. As the game progressed, however, he grew to see that not all humans are the same as the ones he spent his entire life with in the Alienage. He began to see that not all Elves are as honest and good as the community he grew up with.

I think it's natural for the City Elf to start of as resentful, as he has never been outside of this dystopian community. But the potential for character growth is by far the most potent for this character. His motivation for defeating the blight was essentially to become a symbol; a symbol for inspiration among the City Elves, a symbol of respect among the humans, and a symbol of hope for change in the history books. Somewhat idealistic, but i felt it fit. In the end he chose that being a martyr was the best way to solidify the symbolism he was trying to achieve. Alistair granted the Alienage community a spokesperson in the courtroom and independent governing. Very fitting finale, and the beginning of change that my character was hoping for.

The City Elf is definitely the most inriguing and emotionally satisfying character i have played so far. 

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 07 juillet 2012 - 06:28 .

[Dintonta]

@Faerunner
I am truly sorry! I didn't see your two last post before I post mine, because I am a very slow english writter (not my native language). I have now too few time to make you a full answer but I promise I'll do.

I wanted to apologize for leaving a post looking like if I wanted to knock a character you liked. It was certainly not my intention at all!
"Delusional" was absolutely a very poor choice of a word : as I said in my first post I stumbled on this topic while stuck with my bitter Tabris, a part of her mood was rubbed on me. While writting, though (and since it took me some time), I reflected that it took actually more patience (or optimism) to think that way than delusion. It's true I should have corrected it. Please accept my apology for that.
For the rest, in a nutshell, please consider that I don't think there is a "good" way to RP a character, or a "bad" one. You may want to RP any sort of character : nice people or jerks, far-sighted intelligent and constructive optimists, or short-sighted bitter and non the wiser pessimists. It's all up to the player, who may have very different reasons to give a try to some sort of character, try the opposite the next PT, or to find not appealing or simply difficult to impersonnate one type.
Sometimes a player may well not be aware of these reasons. It was my case until I read your suggestion (the part of my post you said you didn't understood). And I thank you again for giving me the click (even not volontary).
From that perspective I hope you will not consider discourteous that I don't want to discuss the relevance of a choice of RP. And again, it was absolutely not my intent to knock yours. I apologize that my poor choice of word actually looked like it did.
About an Andrastrian CE, I will develop in another post, because I really have to go.

[TEWR]

Faerunner wrote...

Well, this is a world of sexism as well as racism. The double-whammy of being an elf and a woman would take its toll.

Tack on another whammy if you're a Female Elven Mage. Triple whammy!

Faerunner wrote...

I disagree. The Chantry is not significantly kinder to elves than mages. The Exalted March against the Dales, the writing of Shartan out of the Canticles of Light (and the continued blasphemous treatment of his verses), and the priests' on-going attitudes against elves (such as the human version of the city elf codex entry) just makes me think that the Chantry is much more responsible for the elves' on-going plight than they pretend to be.

I personally think the conversation with the priestess at Ostagar is also telling.

Priestess (all sugar and honey): All are equal in the Maker's eyes.
Elven Warden: And does He invade the homeland of those who refuse to worship Him?
Priestess (suddenly harsh and angry): I'll not discuss politics with you! Take your heathen talk elsewhere!

"All are equal" when the Maker wants a little worship, but when it's time to address the very real and legitimate unjust and unequal treatment against the elves from the Maker's followers and supposedly from the Maker's will? Suddenly it's just "politics" and the person asking is just being a hateful, blasphemous heathen and needs to go elsewhere.

Speaking of tithes, most elves are so poor they can barely afford to feed themselves, so for the priests in all their finery to turn around and ask for tithes and donations (especially when elves don't even seem to be able to join the Chantry as any human seems to be able to) seems like such a big insult to me. In theory, elves get plenty of stuff from the money going into the donations, but in practice I kind of doubt this actually happens often enough to justify donating. (In fact, according to Soris, Mother Boann of the City Elf Origin is apparently the only priest to visit the alienage. How do you like them apples?)

So much this. It'd be very easy for the Chantry to improve the lot of the Elves -- they are after all heavy in the political spectrum -- but they refuse to do so.

They continue to allow the Elves to face harsh treatment, ridicule, racism, scorn, and poverty.

The Chantry -- prior to Justinia V, as I hold out hope that she wants the lot of the Elves to improve as well -- has done many things to the Elves that are indeed deplorable, reprehensible, despicable, and any other word that means the same thing basically.

The sad thing is that Elves in Orlais have it worse then Elves in Ferelden. Talking to Liselle as an Elf will have her state just that.

[Vanilka]

I, personally, also don't think you have to necessarily play a hateful and bitter character. Moreover, as much as I like to roleplay my characters, that is something I simply can't do. So, playing a CE for the first time (my first DA:O playthrough ever), I liked to believe she had led a relatively happy life in the Alienage (as there didn't seem to be much of a sign of the opposite), despite the oppression, up until the sad incident at the wedding.
I can't say she hated humans. She was sensitive to racism, yes. She did hate Vaughan and turned his home into a bloody mess out of pure lust for vengeance. After that, she didn't want to leave the Alienage but knew she had to. The fact is, she was more afraid and suspicious of humans than hateful. But inside, she was still pretty much that open-hearted, if not naive being she had been in the Alienage.
However, after having been recruited, she found out not all humans are so bad and scary. To Duncan, Alistair, her companions and many other people she met, her race didn't matter at all. So, she slowly grew to like her companions and started to trust them. She gradually stopped being that scared little girl from the Alienage and began to strive to be an example of what a "mere elf" is capable of.
As for her motivation to fight the Blight, she didn't know what to make of the Grey Wardens at first and felt that she didn't have much of a choice. She knew she owed Duncan for helping her out and that was it. Moreover, she had nowhere to go anyway. But as she kept travelling with Alistair and the others, she began to realise just how important her role was and that the Blight was a threat to everyone - humans, elves, even to her family back in the Alienage...

Well, those are my two coppers on the matter. I must say I loved playing CEO because I felt there were so many possibilities how to start and develop the character. Bitter and hateful CE is one of them, but definitely not the only one. I don't know if my approach makes sense lore-wise, but I had fun regardless.

Modifié par Vanilka of the Sword Coast, 07 juillet 2012 - 03:14 .

[Confederate Republic]

Regarding the whole thing about the Chantry and Andrastianism,

Faerunner wrote...

I disagree. The Chantry is not significantly kinder to elves than mages.
The Exalted March against the Dales, the writing of Shartan out of the
Canticles of Light (and the continued blasphemous treatment of his
verses), and the priests' on-going attitudes against elves (such as the
human version of the city elf codex entry) just makes me think that the Chantry is much more responsible for the elves' on-going plight than they pretend to be.

Okay, going to approach this from two POVs, first as a Chantry apologist, second with a more spiritual approach. The point being to show two different ways that a City Elf could be an Andrastian.

I don't know the source for Shartan being written out of the Chant, this is the first I've heard of this. Second, the Exalted March? Do we know what REALLY happened? I remember someone specifically mentioning that, when the Chantry sent missionaries to the Dales, they were killed, not simply turned away, which when you take into account what happens to Brother Burkel, this sounds like it could definitely be true. Also, I don't know if there is a source for what I am about to say, but I also slightly remember reading from somewhere (I forget if it was ingame, or a poster on this site) that the Elves were raiding human villages and settlements, and taking prisoners to use as sacrifices for their gods.

Now, let's say Shartan was written out, and the Exalted March was an unprovoked attack on a peaceful people who simply wanted to be left alone, that would be the fault of a mortal organization, run by men and created by men, the same men who were so sinful the Maker himself was said to turn away from them. The fact that Shartan had to be "Written out" means that he was indeed in the original version written by Andraste's disciples. Second, the Exalted March? Andraste and her Disciples were gone from the mortal world, they were taken up by the Maker who then turned away from a sinful world, the same sinful world that gave birth to the Chantry. Any unprovoked attack against the Elves that would be said to be "The Maker's will" is bull. It was a political move by a corrupt human church, in the name of a god who considered said corrupt humans to be so corrupt, he turned his back to them.

Faerunner wrote...

I personally think the conversation with the priestess at Ostagar is also telling.

Priestess (all sugar and honey): All are equal in the Maker's eyes.
Elven Warden: And does He invade the homeland of those who refuse to worship Him?
Priestess (suddenly harsh and angry): I'll not discuss politics with you! Take your heathen talk elsewhere!

"All
are equal" when the Maker wants a little worship, but when it's time
to address the very real and legitimate unjust and unequal treatment
against the elves from the Maker's followers and supposedly from the
Maker's will? Suddenly it's just "politics" and the person asking is
just being a hateful, blasphemous heathen and needs to go elsewhere.

Again, two POVs.

While calling the Warden a "Heathen" may be a bit much, the fact remains that that statement "And does He invade the homeland of those who refuse to worship Him?" seems awful butthurt if you ask me, and only lends to being bitter against something that happened hundreds of years ago that you don't even have the facts on what truly happened. And it's true, she wasn't there to discuss politics, she was there to bless the soldiers and Wardens of the Army before their march against an unholy evil. Politics had no place. If you don't want a blessing, a simple "No thank you." would work just fine, you don't have to attempt to get a debate about a centuries old incident gong.

The Chantry is a corrupt MORTAL organization, run by those the Maker turned his back from. This priest doesn't know the Maker's will or Andraste's heart anymore then anyone else, she only pretends to. Just because Andraste's followers may be corrupt, that doesn't mean she was, or that the Maker is a malevolent god. If anything, it goes to the fact that he was right to turn away from a people who would twist his own words for political advantage. You can be a follower of the Maker without being loyal to the Chantry organization, which, for all Kolgrim's insanity, had a point when he mentioned the Chantry being established by "Those who murdered the first Andraste." and goes on to say "They do not know the Maker better then any other man, woman, or child, they only pretend to."

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So much this. It'd be very easy for the Chantry to improve the lot
of the Elves -- they are after all heavy in the political spectrum --
but they refuse to do so.

They continue to allow the Elves to face harsh treatment, ridicule, racism, scorn, and poverty.

The
Chantry -- prior to Justinia V, as I hold out hope that she wants the
lot of the Elves to improve as well -- has done many things to the Elves
that are indeed deplorable, reprehensible, despicable, and any other
word that means the same thing basically.

The sad thing is that
Elves in Orlais have it worse then Elves in Ferelden. Talking to Liselle
as an Elf will have her state just that.

What are these "Deplorable, reprehensible, and despicable" acts commited against the Elves? Not declaring war against the Fereldan and Orlesian nobility? Providing shelter for widows, orphans, and the homeless? Presiding over weddings and ceremonies? Donations? Or do you refer to the Dales incident, which could have easily been a justified war rather then a holy crusade against a helpless enemy.

These "Deplorable, reprehensible, and despicable" acts were commited by a corrupt church only seeking it's own political power, why would they care about a people who can offer them nothing? The Maker surely weeps seeing that his own "Followers" have twisted his word into one they could use to advance themselves in the Mortal world. In the eyes of the Maker and his bride Andraste, all life is held equal. Sadly, the same cannot be said for his "Followers".

[TEWR]

Confederate Republic wrote...

I don't know the source for Shartan being written out of the Chant, this is the first I've heard of this.

Talk to the two priests in front of Denerim's Chantry as an Elf. They'll tell you it's among the Dissonant Verses and has been since the general timeframe of the Exalted March of the Dales.

Confederate Republic wrote...

I remember someone specifically mentioning that, when the Chantry sent missionaries to the Dales, they were killed, not simply turned away, which when you take into account what happens to Brother Burkel, this sounds like it could definitely be true

1) As far as I can remember, all sources say that missionaries were turned away.

2) What the Dwarves did in response to Brother Burkel is irrelevant to how the Elves acted, because they are two different races with different mindsets, cultures, religions, etc.

3) Leliana herself finds it hard to believe the Chantry's version of events, where the Elves were labeled the instigators of the conflict. That's saying something when a highly devout woman finds the Chantry's version of events to be... spotty at best.

4) The Elves of the Dales made it a point to be isolationists, so as to revive their lost culture. I highly doubt they would kill missionaries, because that threatens their very isolationism.

Confederate Republic wrote...

Also, I don't know if there is a source for what I am about to say, but I also slightly remember reading from somewhere (I forget if it was ingame, or a poster on this site) that the Elves were raiding human villages and settlements, and taking prisoners to use as sacrifices for their gods

Chantry propaganda with no real basis so as to condemn the Elves into looking like savages. The Dalish Elf Warden can tell Leliana that those are all lies IIRC. Brother Genitivi also met with a Dalish Elf once who said that most of their kind really just want to be left alone by the humans. Some will ransack caravans for goods and supplies, but there's never been any mention by the Elves -- amidst themselves or outsiders -- about doing anything of the sort.

I'm sure if they really were sacrificing people to their gods in those days, we would've heard something from the Elven end of the issue, in DAO or DAII.

Confederate Republic wrote...

What are these "Deplorable, reprehensible, and despicable" acts commited against the Elves? Not declaring war against the Fereldan and Orlesian nobility? Providing shelter for widows, orphans, and the homeless? Presiding over weddings and ceremonies? Donations? Or do you refer to the Dales incident, which could have easily been a justified war rather then a holy crusade against a helpless enemy.

I'm more inclined to believe the majority -- if not the entirety -- of the Dales had no part in the conflict that would've given any sort of justifiable pretense for invading.

I do not trust Orlais. I do not trust the Chantry. The two are far too intertwined for me to believe anything they say, because anything one does in their name benefits the other -- barring of course Justinia V's approach to reformation policies.

One need only review their history to understand that the Chantry was founded by Emperor Kordilius Drakon as he set up Orlais. The Chantry was only one of a myriad of Andrastian cults to have existed at that time.

So no, I highly doubt the war against the Dales was justified. At most, I'd say fringe elements of the Elves of the Dales attacked Red Crossing and Orlais overreacted, to which the Elves defended themselves.

But I'd also suggest that it was a ploy set up by Orlais itself to give pretense to an invasion, as the Exalted March of the Dales happened shortly after a Blight that devastated much of Orlais' land. And the Dales happen to be fertile land.

Presiding over a wedding is nice and all, but when only one priest enters the Alienage, that's saying something.

The Chantry could easily do more to help the Elves. Don't they preach that "in saving one man, you save us all" (an excerpt from one of the Chanter's Board quests in Denerim) and that generosity is a good thing?

Why must a generous act have strings attached to it? How can the Chantry serve as source of inspiration to the souls of society if they won't help the people who now suffer so much under their authority?

I'd hardly even call the act of sheltering the Elves in the cities "generous" as they do, because the Chantry knows the Elves live in filth and squalor yet continues to let it persist.

All they have to do is tell the nobles of the countries to allow the Elves more rights, as they deserve. The Chantry is involved in the politics of the realm, so anything they say is effectively carried out.

Wasn't it a decree of the Divine that prompted the Alienages to exist? All it would take is another decree by the Divine to create such a thing, but they choose to ignore the Elves.

Their atrocities go far beyond the Dales. Presiding over weddings and taking care of the occasional orphan is only a mask, covering up a twisted form of what was, in theory, a religion that promotes the betterment of mankind.

Many evil organizations and criminals do "good deeds" as a means to make themselves seem like saints, when in truth they're nothing more then massive douchebags.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 juillet 2012 - 03:56 .

[Confederate Republic]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Confederate Republic wrote...

I don't know the source for Shartan being written out of the Chant, this is the first I've heard of this.

Talk to the two priests in front of Denerim's Chantry as an Elf. They'll tell you it's among the Dissonant Verses and has been since the general timeframe of the Exalted March of the Dales.

Confederate Republic wrote...

I remember someone specifically mentioning that, when the Chantry sent missionaries to the Dales, they were killed, not simply turned away, which when you take into account what happens to Brother Burkel, this sounds like it could definitely be true

1) As far as I can remember, all sources say that missionaries were turned away.

2) What the Dwarves did in response to Brother Burkel is irrelevant to how the Elves acted, because they are two different races with different mindsets, cultures, religions, etc.

3) Leliana herself finds it hard to believe the Chantry's version of events, where the Elves were labeled the instigators of the conflict. That's saying something when a highly devout woman finds the Chantry's version of events to be... spotty at best.

4) The Elves of the Dales made it a point to be isolationists, so as to revive their lost culture. I highly doubt they would kill missionaries, because that threatens their very isolationism.

Confederate Republic wrote...

Also, I don't know if there is a source for what I am about to say, but I also slightly remember reading from somewhere (I forget if it was ingame, or a poster on this site) that the Elves were raiding human villages and settlements, and taking prisoners to use as sacrifices for their gods

Chantry propaganda with no real basis so as to condemn the Elves into looking like savages. The Dalish Elf Warden can tell Leliana that those are all lies IIRC. Brother Genitivi also met with a Dalish Elf once who said that most of their kind really just want to be left alone by the humans. Some will ransack caravans for goods and supplies, but there's never been any mention by the Elves -- amidst themselves or outsiders -- about doing anything of the sort.

I'm sure if they really were sacrificing people to their gods in those days, we would've heard something from the Elven end of the issue, in DAO or DAII.

Confederate Republic wrote...

What are these "Deplorable, reprehensible, and despicable" acts commited against the Elves? Not declaring war against the Fereldan and Orlesian nobility? Providing shelter for widows, orphans, and the homeless? Presiding over weddings and ceremonies? Donations? Or do you refer to the Dales incident, which could have easily been a justified war rather then a holy crusade against a helpless enemy.

I'm more inclined to believe the majority -- if not the entirety -- of the Dales had no part in the conflict that would've given any sort of justifiable pretense for invading.

I do not trust Orlais. I do not trust the Chantry. The two are far too intertwined for me to believe anything they say, because anything one does in their name benefits the other -- barring of course Justinia V's approach to reformation policies.

One need only review their history to understand that the Chantry was founded by Emperor Kordilius Drakon as he set up Orlais. The Chantry was only one of a myriad of Andrastian cults to have existed at that time.

So no, I highly doubt the war against the Dales was justified. At most, I'd say fringe elements of the Elves of the Dales attacked Red Crossing and Orlais overreacted, to which the Elves defended themselves.

But I'd also suggest that it was a ploy set up by Orlais itself to give pretense to an invasion, as the Exalted March of the Dales happened shortly after a Blight that devastated much of Orlais' land. And the Dales happen to be fertile land.

Presiding over a wedding is nice and all, but when only one priest enters the Alienage, that's saying something.

The Chantry could easily do more to help the Elves. Don't they preach that "in saving one man, you save us all" (an excerpt from one of the Chanter's Board quests in Denerim) and that generosity is a good thing?

Why must a generous act have strings attached to it? How can the Chantry serve as source of inspiration to the souls of society if they won't help the people who now suffer so much under their authority?

I'd hardly even call the act of sheltering the Elves in the cities "generous" as they do, because the Chantry knows the Elves live in filth and squalor yet continues to let it persist.

All they have to do is tell the nobles of the countries to allow the Elves more rights, as they deserve. The Chantry is involved in the politics of the realm, so anything they say is effectively carried out.

Wasn't it a decree of the Divine that prompted the Alienages to exist? All it would take is another decree by the Divine to create such a thing, but they choose to ignore the Elves.

Their atrocities go far beyond the Dales. Presiding over weddings and taking care of the occasional orphan is only a mask, covering up a twisted form of what was, in theory, a religion that promotes the betterment of mankind.

Many evil organizations and criminals do "good deeds" as a means to make themselves seem like saints, when in truth they're nothing more then massive douchebags.

This is why I offered two separate points of view.

Confederate Republic wrote...

These "Deplorable, reprehensible, and despicable" acts were commited by a
corrupt church only seeking it's own political power, why would they
care about a people who can offer them nothing? The Maker surely weeps
seeing that his own "Followers" have twisted his word into one they
could use to advance themselves in the Mortal world. In the eyes of
the Maker and his bride Andraste, all life is held equal. Sadly, the
same cannot be said for his "Followers".

[TEWR]

Confederate Republic wrote...


This is why I offered two separate points of view.

Oh don't get me wrong I read it all. But I would've just been going "Yup yup" to those points, which isn't nearly as interesting as addressing the other perspective .

Faerunner wrote...

Charity starts at home. They can treat the cause of the elven plight, not just a few symptoms.

I agree with everything you've said, though I'd personally say that they should also return the Dales to the Elves immediately and take away the restrictions on Elves worshipping their pantheon.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 juillet 2012 - 05:00 .

[thats1evildude]

Have you played Leliana's Song? There's a room in the Hard Line's dungeons where you rescue an elf named Adaia who DG later confirmed is the City Elf's mother. In gratitude, Adaia tells Leliana that she will teach her child that there are good humans in the world.

I basically took that and ran with it. Although Darian wasn't blind to human prejudice, he took his mother's teachings to heart and recognized that not all humans were like that. (He still didn't take too kindly to racists, though.)

I also decided that Adaia trained her son out of the belief that he was "destined to do great things," and her constant insistence on this point instilled in him the desire to be a hero for his people. Stabbing every second shemlen he came across wasn't going to help him in that quest.

[Dintonta]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Confederate Republic wrote...


This is why I offered two separate points of view.

Oh
don't get me wrong I read it all. But I would've just been going "Yup
yup" to those points, which isn't nearly as interesting as addressing
the other perspective .

I am going "Yup yup" to those points, LOL : that's exactly what I had in mind about an Andrastrian CE (and not, for that matter... a Chantry zealot CE). And you exposed them far much better than I ever could!

Faerunner wrote...

Dintonta wrote...

And thanks to you too, Faerunner, because I didn't understood before reading the suggestion you made why my Tabris (who is not patient, nor faithful) was so depressed when she was adressed as a Grey Warden for pleasantries and respect, while as an elf for the rest. Probably because it reminded me too much of my RL!

I... honestly do not understand this statement.

I would like to try to clarify that, if I can, because it's actually what made me blunder, and I feel bad about the fact it looked like I wanted to "knock" your character.
The OP is all about to RP a very open minded and helpful CE, and it refers to another thread which is about quite the opposite. I, personnaly, like very much the CEO and I have been drawn to RP it a few times, never as a sad desperate villain neither as a courageous spirited optimistic hero.
But each time I tried, I banged my head about something I couldn't clearly describe. Usually, it was when it became much more frequent to hear "Warden" than "Hey... you there, elf!" from humans, and it occured too when meeting the dalish. I had just given up my last attempt, when I stumbled on this very interresting thread.
When I read the post where you proposed a Tabris who try to remedy to her people's condition by living as an example, I wondered why I had such a hard time to align my feelings that way (don't get me wrong, I am not saying that I disagree with this POV, no ser, not at all. I do think it is actually for the character the smartest course of action, given the choice.)
Afterwards I remembered another recent thread ( "which origin do you like the most?") where a player said she couldn't enjoy the CEO because what she was living in her RL was far too similar.
I am not in my RL anywhere near that situation, but being myself a child of immigrants and lucky enough to enjoy now a much better status than the average in my community (which I shared until adulthood), I often find myself caught by two "double-lives" :

The first one is typical, it comes from having grown in a culture while attached to another, resulting by feeling neither fully at home in any of them.
That's why my Tabris were no more appealed by the dalish beliefs than by the human ones.
(And, honestly, even if I entirely agree with the defiance The Ethereal Writer Redux holds against all that which comes from Orlais, including the Chantry, I wouldn't put too much trust in the dalish POV either, as long as I'm not RPing a dalish warden, at least.)

My second "double-life" (sorry for that) is why I've let my CE's doubts about the usefulness of a good behavior come up : I am sometimes adressed by people who make no secret they actually dislike my origin (which shows), while making an exception of me by demonstrating (a sincere) respect for my role or my person. I usually persuade myself to look at it as a success (the half full glass), but I have hard time to forget that it makes me feel even more "cut-off" from my origin, to the point I wish sometimes they looked at me the way I was used to.
The funny thing is I can easily live with it in my RL but it shows through a CRPG!

Maybe I should have kept the "optimism tone down" for another thread, since the OP was clearly about positive POV, but I thought that maybe some players were interrested by its topic while sharing the same sort of mixed feelings I had about it. I wanted to contribute by impersonating my bitter Tabris voicing some of her stronger doubts (Given my lazy english speaking level it was also easier to express myself through that sort of conversational style than trying to go through some more nuanced explanations, I am truly sorry that it led to such a blunder.)
Also, I didn't suggested a faithful Tabris for derisive reasons (such as : "only unearthly idealism could led to such optimism".) My point was that some people may see the full half of the glass and may yet found difficult to forget the empty one (It makes no sense, but feelings are not bound to). Being not myself a religious person, I sometimes find myself envying those of my relatives whose faith help them to overcome these sort of bad mood. That's where the idea came from.

I apologize for the lenght of this post, and for its rather personal content too. I thought it could shed a better light upon what I wrote and give some insight on why some people may RP their CEO bitter (It's slightly off-topic but I'm not sure it doesn't contribute anyway).

@Confederate Republic : Hope you'll enjoy your next PT!

Modifié par Dintonta, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:20 .

[Confederate Republic]

Some very insightful posts here, this thread was a lot more popular then I thought it would be.

Thanks for all your opinions, very much.

@thats1evildude, yeah, I have played Leliana's Song, and remember Adaia. I don't remember her comment about humans though, that's pretty awesome, and definitaly some very strong motivation right there.

Err, anyway, I do have one more problem. See, I planned for my combat styling to be vastly different from my Warrior, planning on a DW Rogue with Stealth and Lockpicking skills. I planned on taking Assassin for gameplay reasons, in that it seems to add perfectly onto the Stealth aspect. However, I don't feel it... right for the character, as killing for a living is likely the last thing he'd want to do. I know you can likely RP it differently then how Zevran is, I'm just not sure in what way. Duelist to me seems like it would be too focused on one-on-one upfront combat, like a DW Warrior, where I'm looking for a completely seperate feel from a Warrior. If they had the Shadow specialization in Origins, that would be about perfect, but since they don't, I guess I'll have to make do.

I could always play a Ranger, an extra summon could be nice, though I'm not sure what the RP Motivation for that would be either, since he spent his entire life in a city, and probably has never seen a wolf or a bear, or barely (Pun intended) even heard much about them.

[TEWR]

Wolves and Bears make excellent henchmen to do your dirty work. And you'll fight some pretty soon after the origin story is done, in Ostagar and Lothering. So he'll know what they look like.

If only the game gave us gorilla summons though.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 juillet 2012 - 04:52 .