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[Wissenschaft]

Sorry for the thread necro but a City Elf Warden doesn't have to be a human hater. The City Elves worship Andraste and that makes sense. Why worship ancient elven gods that did nothing to protect the elves in their time of need. On the other had, Andraste freed their people. An exalted march was called down on the Dales but the city elves aren't Dalish Elves. Most of them wouldn't know anything about the dales, much less consider it home any more than some fabled ancient Arlathan.

Its sort of like saying, just because you have Jewish heritage, then you must view Israel as your homeland. Some will, others will not.

A City Elf could just hate elitist corrupt nobility who think they are above the law. Which is how my City Elf views the world. Which means he shows no pity or remorse towards Isolde, who he blames for thinking shes is above the law. And of course he guts that traitor Loghain when he gets the chance.

[andy6915]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Sorry for the thread necro but a City Elf Warden doesn't have to be a human hater. The City Elves worship Andraste and that makes sense. Why worship ancient elven gods that did nothing to protect the elves in their time of need. On the other had, Andraste freed their people. An exalted march was called down on the Dales but the city elves aren't Dalish Elves. Most of them wouldn't know anything about the dales, much less consider it home any more than some fabled ancient Arlathan.

Its sort of like saying, just because you have Jewish heritage, then you must view Israel as your homeland. Some will, others will not.

A City Elf could just hate elitist corrupt nobility who think they are above the law. Which is how my City Elf views the world. Which means he shows no pity or remorse towards Isolde, who he blames for thinking shes is above the law. And of course he guts that traitor Loghain when he gets the chance.

City elf hating humans=/=hating them because humans destroyed the Dales

My city elf hated them because every time a human shows up, everything goes to hell. The last human interaction you had was a bunch of them gang raping your friends and family, killing your groom (female CE) and an innocent woman, trying to buy you off afterward, and then another human needing to conscript you into their stupid war to not have you executed for doing what needed to be done to the humans that did all that (you're only to be strung up because it was an elf who the crime happened to and it doesn't matter if it's to an elf, the law favors humans greatly). Oh, and then another human orders other humans (soldiers) to kill half the alienage off for no reason except spite, even butchering children in their beds in the orphanage. Then another human lets Tevinters enslave them for a little extra money on the side. And even though an elf ended the last blight, humans show no appreciation and continue treating elves like dirt. Oh, and the only part of the chant of light that spoke well of elves was removed, as if the chantry was trying to downplay elves goodness.

There are a lot of reasons to hate human as a city elf. Far more personal reasons then "they took our city thousands of years ago".

Modifié par andy69156915, 22 octobre 2012 - 02:14 .

[Wissenschaft]

andy69156915 wrote...
City elf hating humans=/=hating them because humans destroyed the Dales

My city elf hated them because every time a human shows up, everything goes to hell. The last human interaction you had was a bunch of them gang raping your friends and family, killing your groom (female CE) and an innocent woman, trying to buy you off afterward, and then another human needing to conscript you into their stupid war to not have you executed for doing what needed to be done to the humans that did all that (you're only to be strung up because it was an elf who the crime happened to and it doesn't matter if it's to an elf, the law favors humans greatly). Oh, and then another human orders other humans (soldiers) to kill half the alienage off for no reason except spite, even butchering children in their beds in the orphanage. Then another human lets Tevinters enslave them for a little extra money on the side. And even though an elf ended the last blight, humans show no appreciation and continue treating elves like dirt. Oh, and the only part of the chant of light that spoke well of elves was removed, as if the chantry was trying to downplay elves goodness.

There are a lot of reasons to hate human as a city elf. Far more personal reasons then "they took our city thousands of years ago".

And yet those same reasons can be reasons to hate only the Elitst Aristocracy. The city elves in game don't all hate humans. Of course, half of them are employed by humans. Heck, even Soris, who knows everything you do, still ends up marriing a human. So certainly not every city elf is going to have a blanked hate for humans.

Unless your a Dalish, they hate and brood as easily as most people breathe. 

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 22 octobre 2012 - 03:23 .

[andy6915]

Wissenschaft wrote...
Unless your a Dalish, they hate and brood as easily as most people breathe. 

Yes they do. Indeed, humans seem to be the Dalish Elves berserk button, they get angry just seeing humans. Makes you think a berserker Dalish would be easy to imagine, they just need to think of what the "shemlen" have done to them, and bam... Berserk activated.

It makes my 2-hander weapon, berserk specialization Dalish playthrough rather fitting. My Dalish was rather unique among Dalish, using a dwarven fighting style along with using 2-handed swords. Not your typical Dalish, huh?

[Wissenschaft]

HAHA, Brilliant idea, andy. You made Dalish Fenris. Let your rage be your guide.

[andy6915]

Wissenschaft wrote...

HAHA, Brilliant idea, andy. You made Dalish Fenris. Let your rage be your guide.

Sort of. I don't have his cool lyrium tatoos that give awesome powers. If only...

[andy6915]

Faerunner wrote...

Just to be clear, I'm not saying isn't possible to play a city elf that isn't a human-hater. My Warden's not a human hater by any stretch of the imagination as most of her best friends and loved ones turned out to be human, and many humans she started out hating ended up being her best friends because she could empathize with their plights and find common ground based on her own experiences.

To my typical CE characters, she sees a difference between a "human" and a "shemlen". A human is what she considers humans she respects or likes (the human party members, Calain, Duncan) whereas shemlen is reserved for people who she hates or absolutely does not respect (Loghain, Howe, "mister-rapesalot" Vaughan). Kind of like Merrill, where not giving her that tool for the mirror makes her consider you a shemlen instead of just Hawke until she forgives you. She lost respect for you for a while, and thus you was called a shemlen for it. My CE characters are similar.

Dust Town really showed her how much worse the Alienage could be. As bad as where she is from is, Dust Town makes the alienage look like paradise in comparison. She really did have a lot of sympathy for casteless dwarves... Which is the main reason she sided with Bhelen.

Faerunner wrote...
I'm just saying to keep in mind that city elves wouldn't all necessarily hate humans just because of possible religious differences or the Fall of the Dales. Unlike the Dalish, the city elves actually have to live with humans and thus can find countless other reasons to want to slip rat poison in their drinks.

Reminds me of a Zevran quote. Sarel is apologizing for being rude, saying that he let his emotions cloud his better judgment. So it goes:

"Sarel: It is most difficult to forget the lessons the Shemlen have taught us."

"Zevran: It is even more difficult when you live amongst them, trust me."

True words. As much as the Dalish complain about and hate humans, city elves are the ones who get actual good reasons to hate humans. Dalish can always just move on. If someone like "mister-rapesalot" tried that with Dalish, he would have wound up dead and the clan moved on without trouble, whereas a city elf who rightly kills him gets screwed by a human ran justice system and their alienage gets torn apart as retribuiton. City elves being stuck with humans makes them hate humans not just because of what happened to an ancient city like the Dalish do, they hate them for constantly being beneath humans on a daily basis.

Honestly, that made my city elf angry. What do the Dalish know of human hate? What do they know of just how bad humans can be? Dalish just hate them because they're taught to, city elves hate them because of the things humans actually do to them on a daily basis. They think they have room to complain when they rarely encounter humans and actually have the ability to shoot them dead without fear of getting themselves and everyone they know killed. They know nothing of human hatred, or how badly humans can treat elves and get away with it. It's like the difference between a child who's crying about how hungry they are because dinner is late and they haven't eaten since breakfast, and a child who's crying about how hungry they are because they live in a super poor and famished village in Africa and their ribs stick out further then their belly and the last food they had was a slice of bread 5 days ago. The kid crying about late dinner doesn't know true hunger, and the Dalish don't know true human persecution. They have it so much better then city elves, and yet complain twice as much (or more) then city elves. If Dalish want to know how good they have it they should walk a mile in a city elf's shoes, live even 1 month as city elf does, who live their entire lives like that let alone a month. I bet most would have a breakdown within a week. Of course, I do mean "most" when I say it. Some Dalish, like Merrill, are strong enough to handle the downgrade to city elf.

That was quite a rant...

Modifié par andy69156915, 23 octobre 2012 - 10:18 .

[mousestalker]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that in the City Elf origin, a human killed your mother. So if you want fodder for your grievances against the shems, I'd say it would be, in order of strength, they killed my mother, they kidnapped me/my bride, they killed a friend (bridesmaid), they raped a cousin and they deny my people shelter (the ability to own property), income (steady jobs and more to the point trades) and they 'purge the alienage' on a semi regular basis.

You don't have to play a City Elf as a hater, but the motivation is there in game if you want to.

[sylvanaerie]

In regards to comparison of Alienage to Dusttown, I remember a comment Sigrun had about it to Nathaniel. "I've seen the Alienage, it's actually nice." or something to that effect. My CE pretty much supports Bhelen not because he has any particular love of the casteless, but because Harrowmont is too traditional to change anything about dwarven life that desperately needs change.

My CE's dislike nobles (Isolde usually gets killed to fuel Jowan's ritual, Loghain is carved up like a Christmas turkey, Vaughan never lives through the CE Origin). But she doesn't hate all humans. Distrusts and dislikes them initially maybe (plus part of the fun of the Origin for me is getting up in Duncan's grill when you first meet him, and thumbing your nose at the city guards who come to get you), but she gradually bends on her opinions, beginning to accept each person on their own merits.

While it is certainly feasible to play through a CE who hates humans (and has every right to), I prefer the journey more than the destination.  Character development (even if it only happens in my head) is crucial to my enjoyment of the game.  I like to imagine the PC undergoes a shift in attitude once she gets out in the world, beyond those stone walls and sees that it's much larger than she probably imagined, and filled with many wonderful people as well.

And since I always romance Alistair on my lady wardens, even the CE ones, I have to head canon she wasn't racist, just hates the wankers who oppress/hurt her people.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 24 octobre 2012 - 12:08 .

[BetteOfTheCleve]

My current F.CE does not like human men - any of them with good reason obviously.
She HATES Alistair because he's blonde & cocky and, therefore, reminds her of Vaughn. She told Duncan to get the f-out of the Alienage and gave Caillan a verbal smack-down and left him to the wolves.
It's a difficult play-through for me because I personally adore Alistair, but figure that this is a good opportunity to see the wandering drunk ending.

[Rycr]

sylvanaerie wrote...While it is certainly feasible to play through a CE who hates humans (and has every right to), I prefer the journey more than the destination.  Character development (even if it only happens in my head) is crucial to my enjoyment of the game.  I like to imagine the PC undergoes a shift in attitude once she gets out in the world, beyond those stone walls and sees that it's much larger than she probably imagined, and filled with many wonderful people as well.

That's what I did too on my current City Elf playthrough.  She started out at best indifferent towards humans, though she usually tended towards insulting or confrontational.  But after what happened at Ostagar, she starts making an effort to be nicer.  Duncan, regardless of his ulterior motives, did help her, and Cailan certainly didn't deserve to die, no matter how naive he was.  I like to think that the battle at Ostagar would have a pretty big effect on any Warden, regardless of the origin you picked.  Think about it hard enough, and you could make Ostagar a reason for your character to act pretty much whatever way you want.

I also kind of RPed that she fell in love with Leliana at first sight.  And since that first sight is so early in the game, her attitude towards humans in general changed fairly quickly.  That's not to say she's perfect though.  She's got a serious grudge against Loghain for leaving Duncan, the first human she ever respected, to die.  So she won't be sparing him, or anyone allied with him.  She doesn't really like nobles much, but after doing Broken Circle, she hates blood mages even more.  In Redcliffe, she decided against using blood magic to enter the Fade to save Connor, and let Eamon order Jowan's execution.

Basically, my City Elf is generally a good person who gives everyone a chance, but she's a bit hot-tempered and snarky.  And she only gives ONE chance.  No forgiveness for anyone who screws with her or her friends.

[Viktoria Landers]

I really much approve this thread. Many many people consider that City Elves hate humans, etc but since they live with them, that cannot apply to each of them. Perhaps, the only flaw that the City Elf Origin had, was that it didn't present that fact quite well.

[Viktoria Landers]

Faerunner wrote...

I don't think that's necessarily true. In the CE Origin, you can be polite to humans, or keep from using racial slurs whenever you confront them about their behavior. For example, when Vaghaun starts harrassing the women in the alienage, you can ask him to leave (or cowar in fear) without necessarily adding a racial insult.  When Duncan shows up, Soris wants to ask him to leave because he's more afraid of drunken elves starting a row, and you too can very diplomatic about asking him to leave. You can very easily play a character that's all right with humans based on the dialogue offered in the CE Origin.

Compared to the HN Origin, which doesn't give you the option to show kindness to elves and deliberately skews your responses to sound racist because the developers wanted the audience to experience what it's like to be the racist (a feature they kept despite taking away the option to be the elf in DA2), the CE Origin is disproportionately open-minded. 

Actually CE and HN Origins were written by different writers. However indeed there were some more diplomatic answers but in the example of Duncan you couldn't just let him watch your wedding, you had to throw him out of the alienage (with the good or bad way).

Modifié par Viktoria Landers, 05 novembre 2012 - 11:13 .