450 réponses à ce sujet

[StElmo]

Could someone make the OP into a video? I think all this negativity comes from the negativity getting all the effort put into it. I guess people like to complain?

I know I discovered this.

Now, if we had a nice positive, detailed video that would be awesome It would probably also set a lot of people at ease because they are blindly complaining without actual context.

Modifié par StElmo, 31 janvier 2013 - 10:34 .

[Uncle Jo]

TurianRebel212 wrote...


destroy-You can rebuild the Geth and EDI. Shep lives. Reapers die. 

*snip*

Headcanon. And a bad one. EDI is on the memorial wall. She died. The Geth died. Period. There is no slide with the Geth in the Destroy ending. You can not rebuild them. You cannot resurrect the deads (except Jesus-Shepard, but that's another story).
What they were and the sentience they gained by uploading the reaper code was destroyed by the Crucible. Build copies if you like, but they'll never be like they were before you shot the pipe. It's the downside of Destroy.

Why? Ask the writers. You can also imagine how much people would choose synthesis or control if the synthetics didn't die in the red option.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 31 janvier 2013 - 11:15 .

[kal_reegar]

TheGinosaji wrote...

kal_reegar wrote...

the catalyst's observation field is a lot wider than ours. Immensly wider.

he reasons in term of millenia (maybe more) and domain (synthetics vs organics)
we are reasoning in term of months (quarian-geth truce? few months. Edi/Joker? Legion/Shep? a year maybe?) and species (geth vs human/quarian) or even individuals (Edi/Legion)

The exceptions we have witnessed aren't enough to falsify the catalyst, because in order to disprove the recurrence of the synthetics-organics chaos we should at least wait some decades and see how the situation evolves.

I personally think that he's wrong about the inevitability of singularity, but I can't say that singularity is an illogic assumption and/or that Edi/Legion/geth certainly disprove singularity.
It's a dialectic stalemate

The Catalyst assumes the problem exists simply because it's a core assumption in its programming, it's entire purpose being to solve said problem. It has nothing to do with it having an "immensly wider observation field".

The original problem was identified by the Leviathan. They would have only observed this a handful of times at best before seeking a solution. So far as we know, no synthetic race has made any attempt to wipe out organic life since the Catalyst implemented its Reaper "solution". It's a false premise.

Also, let's not forget that those first handful of times were by thrall species. Any potential instance after the Reapers would have been a direct result of the Reapers indoctrination or them guiding evolution down that path to continue their experiments. It became a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I agree, it's the indisputable axiom of his program. As for the "field of observation", maybe there is a more precise expression in english, I don't know... the meaning is "the time and subjects to which this axiom relates and applies"
Well, it is a lot wider than "geth-organics 2 weeks alliance" or "edi-shep/joker friendship".
I can't falsify somethitng like "the conflict is in the nature of mankind" arguing that in my little city everybody is friendly and quiet since 2007 and my friends love me very much.


the catalyst's axiom refers to domain and millenia. The chaos (conflict between organics and synthetics) is not something permanent, constant. It's recurring .
The fact that "here and now" synthetics and organics are cooperating proves nothing.
And the "chaos" doesn't necessarly apply to every single individual. It's something general, a tendency. Edi proves nothing.


chaos and singularity aren't true or false, they are just premises. And premises like these (rebellion is in the nature of synthetics... the violence is in he nature on men... soon or later singularity will become true... conflict is inevitable... soon or later WW3 will break out) are auto-immunizing.. it's almost impossible to prove or disprove them.  Exceptions and confirmations are never decisive.
They can be true as much as they can be false.  It's matter of faith, nothing more, nothing less.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Uncle Jo wrote...

TurianRebel212 wrote...


destroy-You can rebuild the Geth and EDI. Shep lives. Reapers die. 

*snip*

Headcanon. And a bad one. EDI is on the memorial wall. She died. The Geth died. Period. There is no slide with the Geth in the Destroy ending. You can not rebuild them.

I believe you probably can, if Quarians still know how. You can also create another AI, similar to EDI.

But theywill not be the same entities that died during Destroy. They will be entirely new creatures, with new unpredictable personalities.

[TheGinosaji]

Exactly. Any evidence the Leviathan have is just as anecdotal as the Geth vs. Quarians. They created the Catalyst in a misguided attempt to maintain control, believing themselves to be above the "lesser species". The Catalyst is fundamentally incapable of recognizing that the problem it was created to solve does not even exist. Everything from the Leviathan suffering the same fate as their thralls, to the Catalyst perpetuating the problem just to solve it... all hilariously ironic from my perspective.

[Ieldra]

TheGinosaji wrote...
Exactly. Any evidence the Leviathan have is just as anecdotal as the Geth vs. Quarians. They created the Catalyst in a misguided attempt to maintain control, believing themselves to be above the "lesser species". The Catalyst is fundamentally incapable of recognizing that the problem it was created to solve does not even exist. Everything from the Leviathan suffering the same fate as their thralls, to the Catalyst perpetuating the problem just to solve it... all hilariously ironic from my perspective.

The Catalyst has observed the development of civilization for a long time before taking action, so it's implied by Leviathan. Also, if you have enough data you can make models based on them, from there on there is no "anecdotal evidence" any more, you can predict future developments with a success rate that depends on the quality of your models. To think that you can outthink a billion-year-old AI with the brainpower of ten thousand Reapers using the experience one less than one lifetime and your own rather limited brain is highly overconfident.

That's why I can suspend my disbelief for the Catalyst's scenario quite easily. Your problem - and that of all those who say the Catalyst's problem doesn't exist - isn't logic. Your problem is that you don't *want* to believe it, and you make up your faulty "logic" from there. There is no 100% foolproof way to either prove or disprove the Catalyst with the information we have, it all comes down to willing suspension of disbelief. You are not willling. That *is* in part the fault of the story, it's the narrative inconsistency, but faulty logic on the Catalyst's part there isn't.   

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 janvier 2013 - 09:19 .

[Paranoidal nemesis]

Time was never cyclical until the Catalyst created the cycles. The catalyst created the coincidences and parallels between different period, and effectively created the problem that its trying to solve.

[Samtheman63]

the catalyst says he is preserving organic life by storing it in reaper form, he fails to realize that this involves killing them, which is the exact opposite of what he is claiming to do.

yes believe it or not, killing someone then squashing there corpse down to a paste and pumping it inside a robot results in them being DEAD.

the catalyst is not right, anyone who agrees with him is an idiot.

[TheGinosaji]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Catalyst has observed the development of civilization for a long time before taking action, so it's implied by Leviathan. Also, if you have enough data you can make models based on them, from there on there is no "anecdotal evidence" any more, you can predict future developments with a success rate that depends on the quality of your models. To think that you can outthink a billion-year-old AI with the brainpower of ten thousand Reapers using the experience one less than one lifetime and your own rather limited brain is highly overconfident.

That's why I can suspend my disbelief for the Catalyst's scenario quite easily. Your problem - and that of all those who say the Catalyst's problem doesn't exist - isn't logic. Your problem is that you don't *want* to believe it, and you make up your faulty "logic" from there. There is no 100% foolproof way to either prove or disprove the Catalyst with the information we have, it all comes down to willing suspension of disbelief. You are not willling. That *is* in part the fault of the story, it's the narrative inconsistency, but faulty logic on the Catalyst's part there isn't.   

It's never claimed that the Catalyst observed organic-synthetic relations to verify that the problem exists. It observed only to find a solution to the problem, as it was assumed to exist in its programming. With its very purpose being to solve the problem, the problem exists only as a logical consequence of it trying to solve it. Whether the Catalyst knows it or not, it's perpetuating the problem for the sake of solving it. This is, in a way, hinted at when it claims that the Reapers give it purpose.

I should mention that I don't necessarily see this as bad writing on BioWare's part, or even stupidity on the part of the Catalyst or the Leviathan. I see it as one of the underlying messages of the entire game.

Modifié par TheGinosaji, 31 janvier 2013 - 10:43 .

[Paranoidal nemesis]

TheGinosaji wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Catalyst has observed the development of civilization for a long time before taking action, so it's implied by Leviathan. Also, if you have enough data you can make models based on them, from there on there is no "anecdotal evidence" any more, you can predict future developments with a success rate that depends on the quality of your models. To think that you can outthink a billion-year-old AI with the brainpower of ten thousand Reapers using the experience one less than one lifetime and your own rather limited brain is highly overconfident.

That's why I can suspend my disbelief for the Catalyst's scenario quite easily. Your problem - and that of all those who say the Catalyst's problem doesn't exist - isn't logic. Your problem is that you don't *want* to believe it, and you make up your faulty "logic" from there. There is no 100% foolproof way to either prove or disprove the Catalyst with the information we have, it all comes down to willing suspension of disbelief. You are not willling. That *is* in part the fault of the story, it's the narrative inconsistency, but faulty logic on the Catalyst's part there isn't.   

It's never claimed that the Catalyst observed organic-synthetic relations to verify that the problem exists. It observed only to find a solution to the problem, as it was assumed to exist in its programming. With its very purpose being to solve the problem, the problem exists only as a logical consequence of it trying to solve it. Whether the Catalyst knows it or not, it's perpetuating the problem for the sake of solving it. This is, in a way, hinted at when it claims that the Reapers give it purpose.

I should mention that I don't necessarily see this as bad writing on BioWare's part, or even stupidity on the part of the Catalyst or the Leviathan. I see it as one of the underlying messages of the entire game.

In synthesis doesn't the catalyst say that synthetics will finally
uderstand organics?  No matter how old the catalyst is, it admits that
synthetics cannot understand organics without synthesis.  The catalyst
itself being a synthetics, indirectly admits that it doesn't understand
organic life.  If it doesn't understand organic life, how can it possibly provide an ideal solution?

[JShepppp]

Paranoidal nemesis wrote...

TheGinosaji wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Catalyst has observed the development of civilization for a long time before taking action, so it's implied by Leviathan. Also, if you have enough data you can make models based on them, from there on there is no "anecdotal evidence" any more, you can predict future developments with a success rate that depends on the quality of your models. To think that you can outthink a billion-year-old AI with the brainpower of ten thousand Reapers using the experience one less than one lifetime and your own rather limited brain is highly overconfident.

That's why I can suspend my disbelief for the Catalyst's scenario quite easily. Your problem - and that of all those who say the Catalyst's problem doesn't exist - isn't logic. Your problem is that you don't *want* to believe it, and you make up your faulty "logic" from there. There is no 100% foolproof way to either prove or disprove the Catalyst with the information we have, it all comes down to willing suspension of disbelief. You are not willling. That *is* in part the fault of the story, it's the narrative inconsistency, but faulty logic on the Catalyst's part there isn't.   

It's never claimed that the Catalyst observed organic-synthetic relations to verify that the problem exists. It observed only to find a solution to the problem, as it was assumed to exist in its programming. With its very purpose being to solve the problem, the problem exists only as a logical consequence of it trying to solve it. Whether the Catalyst knows it or not, it's perpetuating the problem for the sake of solving it. This is, in a way, hinted at when it claims that the Reapers give it purpose.

I should mention that I don't necessarily see this as bad writing on BioWare's part, or even stupidity on the part of the Catalyst or the Leviathan. I see it as one of the underlying messages of the entire game.

In synthesis doesn't the catalyst say that synthetics will finally
uderstand organics?  No matter how old the catalyst is, it admits that
synthetics cannot understand organics without synthesis.  The catalyst
itself being a synthetics, indirectly admits that it doesn't understand
organic life.  If it doesn't understand organic life, how can it possibly provide an ideal solution?

TheGinosaji has an interesting point regarding the problem being a consequence of the Leviathans programming it into the Catalyst. However, I would suggest that as the Catalyst searched for a solution to the problem, the conclusion it came to - that lasting peace is impossible - is a valid conclusion. In a crude way, forgive me for using an over-used analogy, but it would be as if Leviathan said to the Catalyst "the frying pan is hot" and the Catalyst, regardless, observes and finds that there is a fire.

That is, the Leviathans took an observation - thralls being wiped out by their creations - as a problem. It was a fact that the thralls were being wiped out; it being a problem was the Leviathans' interpretation of those facts. It tasked the Catalyst with solving its problem. The Catalyst's conclusions are unbiased where it says that the so-called "problem" is impossible to solve. 

Its attempts to solve it, and its recognition of the situation of as a problem, can be attributed to the Leviathans' programming. Its conclusions regarding the nature of organic/synthetic life, I would suggest, are separate. 

[kal_reegar]

 After the recent discussions, in this topic and others, I have changed my interpretation of the ending a little.


THE CATALYST

• The catalyst is an advanced AI and his task is to solve the chaos problem (synthetcs-organics conflict, singularity etc). The reapers are his current solution.
• The catalyst controls the reapers (it's not the same "direct" control of Harb vs Collector's leader: the catalyst embodies the collective intelligence of the reapers, so every reapers mantains an individuality, within certain limits)
• The catalyst doens't control the citadel. Not the arms and the relays, at least. Maybe he does, but it's simpler to assume that he doesn't: we may assume that in ME he was asleep or something like that, but we never see him controlling anything, even when it would have been useful for his purposes. He need Saren, Sovereign, Cerberus, Tim and finally Shepard to do the job done. Occam razor.
• He probably doesn't even control the magic elevator. In low EMS scenario, he said "why are you here"? If he controls the elevator, this sentence makes no sense.
• So he probably doesn't even control the crucible. Referring to the choices, he says "I can't make it happen" -> he needs Shepard to use the crucible. So I assume that he probably can't even shut off the crucible at will. After all, in refusal ending all we see is the beam of light turning off (see also the crucible: point 3)
• So I can summarize point 3-4-5 in one general and no-exceptions statement: the catalyst is incapable of direct, material actions

THE CRUCIBLE

• The crucible is little more than a rude power source (from the catalyst point of view at least), but in combination with the citadel is capable of realising a huge amount of energy.
• We don't know who designed it (very likely not the Leviathans, because the catalyst says "you wouldn't know them" -> and Shepard knows the Leviathans). We only know that its design evolved many times
• The crucible has a limited operation time. The catalyst once says "there is not enough time to explain" ->if he controls the reapers (as he said) and the crucible has illimited operation time, why shouldn't there be enough time? A possible answer: the crucible is running out of energy, (or it is overloading) (see also: the catalyst: point 5)

THE CRUCIBLE DOCKING

Once the crucible docked, shepard is brought in front of the catalyst. The crucible is not working.
The 1 million dollars question is: why the catalyst doesn't shut of the crucible or, if he can't do that, why doesn't he order to the reapers to destroy it and to continue the cycle?
The reason is resumable in one sentece: the variables have been altered.

More specifically:

1. his solution (reapers) won't work anymore. Why? Cit: JShepppp (whom I thank for his illuminating explanations): "The Crucible has been proven possible and a real threat, that its mere existence as a tangible object - and not a dreamy idea - changes things completely because one day the Reapers will be defeated by it" (and refusal ending proves it -> "the reapers are no longer a threat". Even if the crucible is not used, the reapers are done. Defeated by the next cycle or simply "fired" by the catalyst after completing the current harvest)
Cit. JShepppp "I guess at a VERY basic level, an analogous situation would be someone using fire as a weapon [...], hearing of water existing but never seeing it, then finally seeing that water actually exists. Even if their fire is not extinguished, their fire is no longer the invincible weapon it was"

2. the crucible changed him, created new possibilities. The original solution won't work anymore, but new solutions are now available. All of them are better than the reapers.
- synthesis -> do I really need to explain why this is the perfect solution from the catalyst point of view?
- control -> the reapers are "upgraded" with a new catalyst (or with shepardized catalyst 2.0), thanks to Shepard's memories and consciousness and readiness etc.
- destroy -> this cycle has proven itself worthy, and since crucible>>>reapers -> organics can effectively deal with the synthetics threat.

And that's why the catalyst helps shepard, gives him information, doesn't shut off the crucible and/or "stops" the reapers from blasting the crucible.
The variables have been altered, and both shepard and the catalyst need the crucible to be activated, it they want to achive their goals.




Another valid answer to the 1 million dollar question is "because the crucible hacked the catalyst, forcing him to do whatever Shepard decides".
There is nothing flawed in this answer, but imo is little more complicated to justify. Some stretching is needed.
More specifically, you need to decontestualize "the crucible changed me" (it created new possibilities =/= it hacked me) and to classify as wrong/lies:
- THE CRUCIBLE: point 1 -> if the crucible is able to hack the catalyst is A LOT more than a RUDE power source
- THE CRUCIBLE: point 2 -> Leviathans were the only one to know about the catalyst. And if they didn't design it, how could races infinitely less advanced than the reapers manage to hack their collective intelligence, something they didn't even know existed?

[Mcfly616]

Paranoidal nemesis wrote...

Time was never cyclical until the Catalyst created the cycles. The catalyst created the coincidences and parallels between different period, and effectively created the problem that its trying to solve.

wrong. Organics were creating synthetics, which in turn rebelled.....Leviathan makes it quite clear that the creation and rebellion of synthetics was inevitable, because it was happening over and over....aka "cyclical"


The Leviathans created the Catalyst in order to find a solution to the problem

[JasonShepard]

Some very good points Kal_reegar, I agree with most of them. I do, however, have a slightly different explanation for why the Catalyst says that it is running out of time, and, to turn your 1 million dollar question around: Why does the Catalyst not order the Reapers to stop fighting if it is willing to use the Crucible?

Note that waiting around and picking nothing still comes up with the message "The Crucible has been Destroyed". Not "The Crucible has overloaded" or "Run out of energy" or "Self-destructed". "Destroyed".The only local power that would do that is the Reapers. So I conclude that the Reapers are  actively attacking the Crucible. (Yes, I realise that I'm placing a lot of weight on one ending screen, but it's supported by the fact that the Reapers are still fighting in the background.)


I believe the Crucible is somehow blocking the Catalyst's Control signal. It can't  order the Reapers to stop fighting. 
This actually puts the Catalyst in quite the dilemma. In one fell swoop, the Crucible has:
* demonstrated that the Reaper-cycle solution is imperfect,
* provided better options,
* blocked the Catalyst from controlling the Reapers.
As a result, the Catalyst wants the Crucible to be used, but it's running out of time and it can't do anything! In a matter of time, the Reapers will destroy the Crucible by following Catalyst's own most recent instructions, and it can't stop them. I can really see why the Catalyst might consider its solution imperfect in that situation, being completely unable to activate a better set of  solutions, and being about to see those solutions slip through its fingers.


This does come into conflict with the "Little more than a power source" line. A follow-up line reads "It is crude but effective and adaptive in it's design". How do I take this? The Crucible is primarily a power source. It has to be, in order to spread that much energy across the galaxy. However, it does have other components. I'm a firm believer that the Crucible options come from the Crucible - see here. These components might be tiny compared to the power source component, but they are there. And perhaps blocking the Control signal is one of them. Or perhaps it just docked in a slightly inconvenient location and covered up the wrong antenna (I'm paraphrasing here, but you get the point...)
Don't get me wrong - I don't believe the Crucible hacked the Catalyst. Just blocked its control.


Final question: who designed the Crucible? I gave an answer to this, in this very thread, at around the time the Leviathan DLC came out:
A third party.
* Not the Leviathans, for exactly the reason you mentioned (although the Leviathans could easily be how it survived the cycles when next to nothing else did - those artifacts are the perfect tool for keeping the blueprints around.)
* Not the Reapers, otherwise the Catalyst would have made and used it before now. This also wouldn't mesh with the "You would not know them" line.
* A past civilisation that learnt about the Catalyst, but still got wiped out? Something else that has been surviving the cycles? We don't know. I'm interested to learn who the enigmatic 'them' are, but I don't think we need  to.

So at some point, there were some designers. They presumably knew about the Catalyst, or at the very least had an extremely good understanding about the Mass Relay Network and the Citadel. They presumably also invented the Synthesis solution, since it is far and away the most advanced ability of the Crucible. Other than that? We don't know. I do wonder if it relates to the Catalyst's comment of trying a similar solution in the past...

Modifié par JasonShepard, 02 février 2013 - 12:31 .

[kal_reegar]

Note that waiting around and picking nothing still comes up with the message "The Crucible has been Destroyed". Not "The Crucible has overloaded" or "Run out of energy" or "Self-destructed". "Destroyed".The only local power that would do that is the Reapers

yes, I remember the message in the original ending... i'ts still the same even after the EC?
I mean, if don't choose refusal ending and wait around instead, what happens?
does the game-over message still come up? I thought that they replaced it with the refusal ending cutscene, since it is exaclty the same scenario...

[JasonShepard]

I checked only a few weeks back - it's still there. I was exploring the final choice location out of interest, and it sprung up after two or three minutes.

[kal_reegar]

JasonShepard wrote...

I checked only a few weeks back - it's still there. I was exploring the final choice location out of interest, and it sprung up after two or three minutes.

uhm... odd, but still something that can't be ignored.

your interpretation makes a lot of sense.

but I've have another proposal ... you said "The only local power that would do that is the Reapers".
Very likely, but maybe there is another one. What if the crucible has been destroyed by... the keepers?
I thought... the crucible is an foreign body, it is interacting and messing with the citadel systems and functionalities.
If activated, the result can be the destruction of a large portion of the citadel (as shown in many endings)
And the keepers "have no other reason than to mantain the Citadel and its system". 

so maybe the moment the crucible docked, they prevent it to fire (see the red tube), and start  taking countemeasures in order to remove/destroy it (no blasting it of course... maybe overloading the crucible? re-directing the crucible's energy flux?). So, if Shepard doesn't act, the keepers actions will lead to -> "the crucible has been destroyed".

The catalyst can't prevent it (he is incapable of material actions), the reapers can do nothing in few minutes (regardless the fact that they are/aren't under the catalyst's control)... only Shepard can use the crucible before it's too late.

[Ieldra]

@JasonShepard:
That makes some sense....and it's supported by a version of the leaked script where the Catalyst implies exactly that - that its control over the Reapers is slipping and if Shepard doesn't make a choice, it'll lose control completely. It explicitly says so. Here's the cut line:

Catalyst: "But you must act. I can't proceed. Go. If you don't, the cycle will continue, but I will no longer control the Reapers."

I think they cut this because it appears to imply the Reapers would continue the cycle without the Catalyst, and that's not quite logical given what they are, and it would have made them irredeemable even to those who entertained thoughts of making peace. Your interpretation makes more sense - they just follow the Catalyst's last directive.

[CosmicGnosis]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@JasonShepard:
That makes some sense....and it's supported by a version of the leaked script where the Catalyst implies exactly that - that its control over the Reapers is slipping and if Shepard doesn't make a choice, it'll lose control completely. It explicitly says so. Here's the cut line:

Catalyst: "But you must act. I can't proceed. Go. If you don't, the cycle will continue, but I will no longer control the Reapers."

I think they cut this because it appears to imply the Reapers would continue the cycle without the Catalyst, and that's not quite logical given what they are, and it would have made them irredeemable even to those who entertained thoughts of making peace. Your interpretation makes more sense - they just follow the Catalyst's last directive.

Fascinating. I had considered this, but I never knew that an older script actually presented this information.

[whateverman7]

great job at presenting your opinion on the topic OP....however, i disagree for a couple reasons:

1. like others have said: the catalyst's purpose is to solve chaos/conflict, achieve perfect harmony between everything so they can pay tribute (i'll explain later why i say everything and not organics vs synthetics)....the flaw in that is if the problem doesnt exist, the catalyst is still gonna try to solve it cause that's it's programming....even if it means creating said problem...and that's what the series shows happening...the majority of instances of chaos/conflict in ME were started by the reapers trying to solve the problem; fulfill the purpose of the catalyst...

2. to clarify why i said 'everything' and not 'organics vs synthetics' is because the majority of wars that happen in ME are organics vs organcis, not vs synthetics....rachni wars? organics vs organics...krogran rebellions? organics vs organics...organics vs synthetics is created and then overblown by the catalyst, and is just a tool to try to get you do what it wants to try to solve the problem...i'll explain why/how so in the next point..

3. synthesis is only the right choice for the catalyst....it's another solution being tried by the catalyst to solve the chaos/conflict problem...i say that because after all the years and tries, the catalyst has deduced chaos/conflict exist because there is no control of how organics will act...that's the 'X factor' it cant solve for....that was until shepard showed up...it sees how all organics in the universe are willing to follow shepard....he/she provides that bit of 'control' programming organics lack....that's why it wants you to mix and create a higher being of things....it sees that as finally being able to 'program' control into organics...and since it already has control over synthetics, it will finally have achieved what it was programmed for: ending chaos/conflict....the leviathans even hint at this when you meet them...they say they created the catalyst to stop wars/chaos/conflict in the universe cause 'dead bodies cant pay tribute'...when they take control over shepard's mind, they see how everything is willing to follow shepard, that's why they want to keep him/her there to do their bidding...he's a 'catalyst' that can colve the problem they created the original one for, yet shepard can be controlled better

Modifié par whateverman7, 12 février 2013 - 09:33 .

[kal_reegar]

let's hope that the new DLC provides some additional answers about the catalyst/keepers/crucible...

after all, it's all about the CITADEL..

[Ieldra]

I don't think it's really needed at this point. We've got the significant pieces of the picture except for who made the Crucible. Nonetheless, a link to the main plot at the center of the main plot is very desirable. Perhaps we'll get something about the Keepers.

[CosmicGnosis]

A lot of organics vs. synthetics discussion lately. I think this thread needs to return to the public consciousness.

[Ieldra]

CosmicGnosis wrote...
A lot of organics vs. synthetics discussion lately. I think this thread needs to return to the public consciousness.

Indeed. This thread should be required reading for anyone before claiming the Catalyst's logic is flawed.

[JShepppp]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...
A lot of organics vs. synthetics discussion lately. I think this thread needs to return to the public consciousness.

Indeed. This thread should be required reading for anyone before claiming the Catalyst's logic is flawed.

I appreciate the sentiments. Hopefully the thread's increased visibility will help.