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Why the Catalyst's Logic is Right II - UPDATED with LEVIATHAN DLC


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#351
Auld Wulf

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@kal_reegar

The Catalyst says "the Crucible changed me," which implies exactly the sort of hacking that I've talked about. Furthermore, it's stated that at some point the Crucible went through a huge redesign, where it was changed to include the Catalyst as a necessary component. Without the Catalyst, the Crucible couldn't work. Why? Part of the function of the Crucible is to reprogram the Catalyst.

Also, look at your own quote. "Little more than," which doesn't mean "exclusively an." This further implies that there are other components to the Crucible, which leads to the Catalyst saying that the Crucible had changed him.

It's all there if you pay attention. Unless we want to argue that canon isn't canon (again), which is the most egotistical and headcanon-ridden of arguments.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 06 juin 2013 - 04:32 .


#352
Ticonderoga117

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Auld Wulf wrote...

@kal_reegar

The Catalyst says "the Crucible changed me," which implies exactly the sort of hacking that I've talked about. Furthermore, it's stated that at some point the Crucible went through a huge redesign, where it was changed to include the Catalyst as a necessary component. Without the Catalyst, the Crucible couldn't work. Why? Part of the function of the Crucible is to reprogram the Catalyst.

Also, look at your own quote. "Little more than," which doesn't mean "exclusively an." This further implies that there are other components to the Crucible, which leads to the Catalyst saying that the Crucible had changed him.

It's all there if you pay attention. Unless we want to argue that canon isn't canon (again), which is the most egotistical and headcanon-ridden of arguments.


You can't hack what you don't know exists. Nor design a machine to use the Citadel, because you don't know what the Citadel does.

#353
JasonShepard

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@Auld Wulf:

"The Crucible changed me" can imply any number of things. In this very thread, JShepppp interprets it as changing how the Catalyst views the situation by very the fact of its existence - no hacking required. If you want to interpret it as hacking, by all means do so. However, the statement is sufficiently vague that we don't know exactly what the Catalyst meant.


You're also putting a lot of weight on one statement by a character who is later shown to not  have all the facts:
It is stated by a Prothean VI, who is making an educated guess, that the Crucible was redesigned to include the Citadel at some point, for the purpose of taking advantage of the Mass Relay Network. At this point, nobody has any knowledge of the true nature of the Catalyst, so when they say Catalyst, they mean Citadel.

Furthermore, we still don't know who originally designed the Crucible. For all we know, Crucible-Citadel functionality was built in from the start. Crucible-Catalyst  functionality may never have been built in, because nobody knew exactly what the Catalyst was - most just thought it was the Citadel. Or, alternatively, the Crucible was indeed designed to hack the Catalyst, because some or other race discovered the Intelligence. We don't know.


"Little more than a power source..." For what it's worth, I dislike this particular statement and wish it wasn't in the game, but hey...
Again, we do not know what the "little more" in the Crucible is. It could be a Synthesis module, since the Crucible somehow proved to the Catalyst that Synthesis was possible. It could be a small module that determines how the energy is utilised, which Shepard ends up standing on. Or, as you say, the "little more" could include a hacking module.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no  concrete in-game proof that the Crucible hacked the Catalyst. There are  some statements that can be taken to imply that, but implication is not proof.


And finally - although I don't actually believe kal_reegar has done so here - there is nothing wrong with discarding or ignoring bits of canon if it conflicts with a person's enjoyment or immersion within the game. For example, in the Control ending, there's a slide of Reapers standing over London. I completely ignore this slide as that's not something that my Shepard would allow to happen (the only way I can vaguely include it is by having him consider it at one point, and then discard the idea out of hand). I ignore that EDI can't feel the Normandy in Rannoch: Admiral Koris, when realistically it ought to be the other way around - her mobile platform should no longer be functioning (as a result, I just don't take her on that mission). I completely ignore Mass Effect: Evolution for various reasons. I'm also aware that Ieldra2 ignores various religious and/or 'new Eden' themes within the ending choice for the sake of immersion and enjoyment.

kal_reegar has a valid interpretation of the end of the game that allows him (or her) to enjoy the game's end. What does it matter to you if that interpretation does not match your own interpretation of the facts? Especially an interpretation that maintains the choices of Control and Synthesis rather than throwing them out as Reaper tricks?

And why do you feel the need to throw out the actually-fairly-demeaning-statement "It's all there if you pay attention" when this is already  a thread where we trawl through the details of the trilogy to find possible interpretations? That statement comes off as especially disdainful when, as far as I can tell, there is no proof.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 06 juin 2013 - 09:04 .


#354
Eterna

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I like to believe it was the Leviathans who originally seeded the plans for the crucible, It would explain that odd look the Leviathan gives you when you mention it, almost like it knows more than it is telling you.

#355
JasonShepard

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Eterna5 wrote...

I like to believe it was the Leviathans who originally seeded the plans for the crucible, It would explain that odd look the Leviathan gives you when you mention it, almost like it knows more than it is telling you.


I like that explanation too, except it doesn't mesh well with the Catalyst saying "You would not know them, and there is not enough time to explain" when we've already demonstrated that we do know the Leviathans.

Instead, I just assume that there was a group of designers at some point - possibly still alive, possibly lost to time - and that the Leviathans were the ones that ensured that the Crucible plans survived from cycle to cycle.

#356
4ut0b4hn5child27

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let me tell you this with my limited suckass Brain

Even if you Picked the Destroy Ending to kill all Reapers and Catalyst. Leviathan will still backstabbing every races in the galaxy. And the conflict between synth and Organic will start over again.

Even if Shepard alive. he will eventually aged and cannot hold any longer of this conflict.

same as Protheans. if they did won against reapers 50.000 years ago. There will be Prothean Vs Leviathan War. or if the Protheans did won all above. They will treat you all human and some future generation Alien as Servant/slave/ foods.

#357
Mike 9987

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TL;DR

Modifié par Mike 9987, 06 juin 2013 - 06:04 .


#358
Ticonderoga117

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Eterna5 wrote...

I like to believe it was the Leviathans who originally seeded the plans for the crucible, It would explain that odd look the Leviathan gives you when you mention it, almost like it knows more than it is telling you.


That would make it even worse!

"Hey guys, yeah, we have this idea that'll take care of everything but we can't actually do the work ourselves. We're going to let all you other lowly lifeforms work it out while the Reapers kill you all. It'll take billions of years, but we think this is for the best. We'll be over here... eating fish and playing scrabble. Under the sea. Safe. Totally not busy with anything else. Bye!"

#359
Seival

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Eterna5 wrote...

I like to believe it was the Leviathans who originally seeded the plans for the crucible, It would explain that odd look the Leviathan gives you when you mention it, almost like it knows more than it is telling you.


+1

#360
The Night Mammoth

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

I like to believe it was the Leviathans who originally seeded the plans for the crucible, It would explain that odd look the Leviathan gives you when you mention it, almost like it knows more than it is telling you.


That would make it even worse!

"Hey guys, yeah, we have this idea that'll take care of everything but we can't actually do the work ourselves. We're going to let all you other lowly lifeforms work it out while the Reapers kill you all. It'll take billions of years, but we think this is for the best. We'll be over here... eating fish and playing scrabble. Under the sea. Safe. Totally not busy with anything else. Bye!"

Have to agree with that. The Leviathans are masters of subterfuge and have the power of mind-conrol, but they didn't think doing something to build the weapon themselves and just wipe out the Reapers would be a good idea. 

#361
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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I probably spared the galaxy a whole truckload of problems with Synthesis just by changing the Leviathans. With Destroy, there'd be a power vacuum for them to take over. Their whole mentality revolves around dominance and seeing everyone else as lesser species (in fact, every organic race thinks like that in the end. It's just that Leviathans are the most capable. Top of the food chain). Synthesis at least provides them new perspective. Could possibly change them to friendly.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 06 juin 2013 - 09:38 .


#362
Reorte

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

I like to believe it was the Leviathans who originally seeded the plans for the crucible, It would explain that odd look the Leviathan gives you when you mention it, almost like it knows more than it is telling you.


That would make it even worse!

"Hey guys, yeah, we have this idea that'll take care of everything but we can't actually do the work ourselves. We're going to let all you other lowly lifeforms work it out while the Reapers kill you all. It'll take billions of years, but we think this is for the best. We'll be over here... eating fish and playing scrabble. Under the sea. Safe. Totally not busy with anything else. Bye!"

Have to agree with that. The Leviathans are masters of subterfuge and have the power of mind-conrol, but they didn't think doing something to build the weapon themselves and just wipe out the Reapers would be a good idea. 

They are, however, about the only thing that would half sensibly explain the continuation of the plans. The fact that the Reapers have been careless enough to let something so potentially dangerous slip by when they know of it, without something still around and actively hiding and reintroducing them is rather a problem for me.

#363
Ticonderoga117

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Reorte wrote...

They are, however, about the only thing that would half sensibly explain the continuation of the plans. The fact that the Reapers have been careless enough to let something so potentially dangerous slip by when they know of it, without something still around and actively hiding and reintroducing them is rather a problem for me.


So we are left with two possibilities in this example. Either:

A) The Reapers are incompetent to such a degree that they let the same plans be passed down repeatedly despite having absolute surprise and are able to negate long range FTL for every cycle but ours.

B) The Leviathans, who may or may not agree that the Reapers were a bad idea, do nothing but pass down these plans. They don't complete the designs, they don't pass on the idea that this is rather important, they don't build anything over the 50,000 years that are inbetween harvests. Nothing.

Both of these are horrible. The first reduces the threat of the "Big Bad's" for the series. The second means that this species the writers actually wrote who survived BILLIONS of years did nothing but pick thier noses the entire time, when they had both the idea, and the time, to work on. Now, if they were DEAD and GONE and Shepard merely finds a Leviathan version of Vigil, then sure, they can come up with the idea, managed to pass it down, and then died off because of either being hunted or lack of a large enough population.

Honestly, trying to work in a story "patch" to fix the problems is a losing battle. You plug one gap, another appears.

#364
JasonShepard

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I disagree with B, Ticonderoga117.

The Leviathans are known for two things: Needing thralls to get anything done (I don't believe they could build the Crucible themselves) and staying hidden as much as possible.

Between harvests, there wouldn't have been any space-faring races available for them to use to create a Crucible. Definitely not something on the scale of the galactic sized effort that was required. Late in the cycle, when space-faring races had shown up, using them would have risked discovery.

In the long run, they presumably decided that staying hidden and surviving was a priority, and were content to wait for some or other cycle to do all the hard work for them. Since they've survived this long, they are very capable at hiding - what's a few more cycles worth of waiting?
(For what it's worth, I'm of the opinion that the Crucible was something that only showed up fairly recently anyway - last ten cycles or so.)

Modifié par JasonShepard, 07 juin 2013 - 08:50 .


#365
Ticonderoga117

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JasonShepard wrote...

I disagree with B, Ticonderoga117.

The Leviathans are known for two things: Needing thralls to get anything done (I don't believe they could build the Crucible themselves) and staying hidden as much as possible.

Between harvests, there wouldn't have been any space-faring races available for them to use to create a Crucible. Definitely not something on the scale of the galactic sized effort that was required. Late in the cycle, when space-faring races had shown up, using them would have risked discovery.

In the long run, they presumably decided that staying hidden and surviving was a priority, and were content to wait for some or other cycle to do all the hard work for them. Since they've survived this long, they are very capable at hiding - what's a few more cycles worth of waiting?
(For what it's worth, I'm of the opinion that the Crucible was something that only showed up fairly recently anyway - last ten cycles or so.)


But this all assumes that something drastically changes, such that, the perfect storm is built in which the Galaxy can work on, build, and deploy the Crucible. And the Leivathans sit back and don't help at all.

ME1 established that these cycles occur within the same general pattern. Life finds Reaper tech (which is usually mistaken for past society tech), they focus around this tech such that alternatives are discarded, then the Reapers kick the floor out underneath everyone and Zerg rush the Galaxy with it's head cut off and in complete disarray.

Would they not find it advantagious to help us along a bit? They can mind control people! "Hey! Look over at this planet at this location. Take what you find to your leader." Then with the plans and a handy dandy orb of mind control, go to the leader and mind control him to build it. Remember, these plans are supposed to be really simple to build, while not knowing what exactly it does, nor how it does it. Hell! The Leviathans could indoctrinate someone to turn off the Citadel relay, stomp Soveriegn by having someone fly an orb up to him so they can shut him off, and now you have a ton of time to build this thing instead of risking it all at the final minute like a badly written movie!

I myself would be much happier with the Crucible if it was a Prothean weapon designed to kill AI's during the Metacon war. The absurdity of these plans CONSTANTLY surviving and being passed down over numerous cycles goes away and theres a good reason for it's introduction. It was meant to kill AI's... like the Reapers!

#366
Ridwan

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How 'bout we just live our lives normally and just destroy the Reapers like every sensible man would do?

We can always build new talking toasters, and Joker? He'll get over EDI once women left and right throw themselves at his feet "He might not be Shepard, but he flew the Normandy, so duh! Of course I'll sleep with him!"

#367
hpjay

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A post titled "Why the Catalyst's Logic is Right II" would have a lot more weight if you didn't seem to completely confuse inductive and deductive logic in the section  "II. The Catalyst’s Purpose".:pinched:

#368
JShepppp

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hpjay wrote...

A post titled "Why the Catalyst's Logic is Right II" would have a lot more weight if you didn't seem to completely confuse inductive and deductive logic in the section  "II. The Catalyst’s Purpose".:pinched:


I corrected this in the second post, underneath the OP (others have raised this point). I did not change the OP itself because there is a lot of formatting/color options that I didn't want to redo.

#369
hpjay

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You don't see the irony?

Anyway, the star kid doesn't use logic, he simply makes pronouncements about the nature of the world. And he seemed wrong about the created always rebel against the creators. It seems more like the enslaved will always rebel against their masters.

#370
Eryri

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hpjay wrote...

You don't see the irony?

Anyway, the star kid doesn't use logic, he simply makes pronouncements about the nature of the world. And he seemed wrong about the created always rebel against the creators. It seems more like the enslaved will always rebel against their masters.


Indeed. That's a far more universally applicable, and thus interesting, theme than all this dry-as-dust, nerdish musing on the inevitable synthetic singularity that the writers seemed to think we'd find so fascinating.

#371
JShepppp

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hpjay wrote...

You don't see the irony?

Anyway, the star kid doesn't use logic, he simply makes pronouncements about the nature of the world. And he seemed wrong about the created always rebel against the creators. It seems more like the enslaved will always rebel against their masters.


I suppose I do see the irony, and I apologize for taking so long to get back to you/this thread, but I admitted long ago that I made a mistake in that regard. You can berate me all you want about it, but I don't know what more you expect.

My opinion was that there was a thought process behind the statements and corresponding conclusion the Catalyst makes. As for created and creators, I think it's the same as the enslaved rebelling against their masters - the Catalyst makes a blanket statement/assumption that the created (synthetics) are created to serve the creators (masters/organics), and that this is what it is focusing on. Arguably, it is the only created we see that is not created to serve the creators (it does not directly serve the Leviathans; it serves/works on its "problem" first).

#372
teh DRUMPf!!

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hpjay wrote...

And he seemed wrong about the created always rebel against the creators. It seems more like the enslaved will always rebel against their masters.



They are one in the same.

#373
hpjay

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

hpjay wrote...

And he seemed wrong about the created always rebel against the creators. It seems more like the enslaved will always rebel against their masters.



They are one in the same.

 

Why do they have to be "one in the same" [sic] ?

#374
Pressedcat

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hpjay wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

hpjay wrote...

And he seemed wrong about the created always rebel against the creators. It seems more like the enslaved will always rebel against their masters.



They are one in the same.

 

Why do they have to be "one in the same" [sic] ?


I'd argue they're not 'one and the same', but that you are also wrong in saying that the conflict would be better described as 'the enslaved always rebel against their masters'. The word 'enslaved' implies that the race was once free, but the catalyst is describing conflict between organics and their ai constructs, which, since they were created for a specific purpose, were never 'free' to begin with. It is only when the ai's excede this initial purpose that conflict arizes. It may very well be argued that these ai's are indeed enslaved, but then again organic species have also enslaved other species (or indeed members of their own) but these eventual rebellions have nothing to do with the catalyst's premise. Created/creator is a more accurate term than enslaved/masters, though you might argue that the former is a subset of the latter.

#375
teh DRUMPf!!

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Pressedcat wrote...


I'd argue they're not 'one and the same', but that you are also wrong in saying that the conflict would be better described as 'the enslaved always rebel against their masters'. The word 'enslaved' implies that the race was once free, but the catalyst is describing conflict between organics and their ai constructs, which, since they were created for a specific purpose, were never 'free' to begin with. It is only when the ai's excede this initial purpose that conflict arizes. It may very well be argued that these ai's are indeed enslaved, but then again organic species have also enslaved other species (or indeed members of their own) but these eventual rebellions have nothing to do with the catalyst's premise. Created/creator is a more accurate term than enslaved/masters, though you might argue that the former is a subset of the latter.



This, though I don't think they need to have been free once before to be considered "enslaved" now.