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[MetioricTest]

Eluril wrote...
So you believe the mere presence of reapers can cause people to become indoctrinated but the ultimate Reaper consciousness does not have the ability to read your mind and at least subtly manipulate you (I'm not an IT proponent at all, but it does make sense with the lore). Alternate appearances of the Catalyst I've heard have all been no better than what we were given, the only possibility being the Virmire sacrifice but I feel THAT would need a specific explanation in-game more than the Child.

A simple way to foreshadow the Catalyst would've been to reveal right away that it was an AI program but lead the player to believe the Prothean VI was the Catalyst. Then have it reveal that the Citadel contains an AI. This would get the player thinking about what was coming without it just popping in at the end.

And yes it basically can all be explained as Bioware not wanting to give anything away until the last possible second.

I can think of dozens of examples of images that would be better than Ventboy and I can also think of dozens of questions that spring to mind if the Catalyst can read Shepard's mind.

But namely the issue of "The kid you keep seeing die over an over in your nightmares." seems like a really odd choice. Especially since the Catalyst then expresses  nothing in tone or attitude that would influence Shep. It's a curious balance...

"I'm going to go the effort and read your mind to pick the image most likely to sway you...But make no effort in my voice or choice of language to manipulate you at all." Erm...

Know what would have worked really well? No image at all and Hackett's voice seemingly over the radio saying "Shepard you need to enter that big Green energy thing to activate the crucible." to Trick Shep.

Or how about Avina? That would be the perfect seemingly completely innocent and factural way to give Shep information.

So Catalyst doesn't want to trick Shepard...But he does want to manipulate Shepard...But he doesn't want to Manipulate Shepard very well....What the ****?

I had a nightmare the other day where a killer made me and someone else watch him torture a girl on webcam and told us that if we disconnected or went away, he'd kill her. After being forced to watch for what seemed like hours of humiliation and grotesque torture he killed her anyway as we were both watching. Sliced her throat.

It was one of those very disturbing dreams that felt real and when I woke up I thought it was real for a few horrible minutes before all the things that made no sense popped into my head and I realized it was a dream.

Now if the Catalyst wanted to manipulate me, the very worst images for him to take would be that killer or that dead girl victim...

I laugh at someone who says this with a Geth Consensus based
profile picture. There's no evidence at all that synthesis is
monotonous, nor is there any evidence that there is no diversity. In
fact as I've stated before EDI is MORE of an individual after synthesis
than before.

I actually hated this. The way Edi says "I am alive." as if she wasn't before really really degrades Synthetic life. Yes you are alive and have been this entire time. I find it upsetting that she apparently only believes it if we stick human eyes into her face.

The German civilians didn't tell the allies in West Germany to take
off and bring their Marshall Plan with them.  Why?  Both synthesis and
control leave Reapers that are completely different in mindset.  People
don't seem to object in principle to prison works gangs, which don't go
that far, do they?  I just think your psychological analysis ignores
actual fact.

People really need to stop comparing the Reapers to Germany...

And if the beam gives the Reapers a completely different mindset then it is Brainwashing. Which is exactly my point.

Well, the kid's apparently been on Shep's minds from the dreams, and
the Catalyst/Reapers, after Shep has been in their presence for a while
in general, probably has some insight into Shep's mind somehow. I'm
sure if it had appeared as a Reaper there's no way Shep would've done
anything it said.

Yes but why the Kid? Why not just a blank human? Or an image of Shepard? Or anything. The fact it takes the image of the kid is really weird.

I don't think the Reapers had control over their actions

So the Catalyst was after Shepard's body? I think you're forgetting/underestimating how important the Reapers being after Shepard's body was for ME2.

We also don't know
how long in the future the epilogue slides are. It could even be a few
years or so into the future, not instantaneous, but with enough duration
that everyone can forgive each other; people could forgive the Reapers
because they weren't in control of their actions, and the Reapers would
"forgive" everyone else trying to kill them because the Catalyst was
using them to harvest others.

It would take more than "a few years" for people to forgive the Reapers if they EVER could...And those cities are still in ruins. It's blatantly the very near future. Even calling it months ahead is pushing it.

I thought that wanting Shep's body to be in a Reaper was in line
with the Catalyst's Reaper solution by using Shepard's essence to build
a more powerful Reaper or something. As for shackled or not, the
Catalyst clearly has control of them, something that is at least
verified more so in the Control ending.

Why would the Catalyst want Shepard's body especially to make a Reaper? And when is that stated? It also means the Catalyst has been active since a few months after the effects of ME1... Which raises questions. Why didn't the Catalyst repair the Citadel connection so the Reapers could zoom in if he was active? You're saying he can control the Reapers/Collectors from this point but not do anything useful?

[JShepppp]

[quote]MetioricTest wrote...

[quote]Eluril wrote...
So you believe the mere presence of reapers can cause people to become indoctrinated but the ultimate Reaper consciousness does not have the ability to read your mind and at least subtly manipulate you (I'm not an IT proponent at all, but it does make sense with the lore). Alternate appearances of the Catalyst I've heard have all been no better than what we were given, the only possibility being the Virmire sacrifice but I feel THAT would need a specific explanation in-game more than the Child.

A simple way to foreshadow the Catalyst would've been to reveal right away that it was an AI program but lead the player to believe the Prothean VI was the Catalyst. Then have it reveal that the Citadel contains an AI. This would get the player thinking about what was coming without it just popping in at the end.

And yes it basically can all be explained as Bioware not wanting to give anything away until the last possible second.

[/quote]

I can think of dozens of examples of images that would be better than Ventboy and I can also think of dozens of questions that spring to mind if the Catalyst can read Shepard's mind.

But namely the issue of "The kid you keep seeing die over an over in your nightmares." seems like a really odd choice. Especially since the Catalyst then expresses  nothing in tone or attitude that would influence Shep. It's a curious balance...

"I'm going to go the effort and read your mind to pick the image most likely to sway you...But make no effort in my voice or choice of language to manipulate you at all." Erm...

Know what would have worked really well? No image at all and Hackett's voice seemingly over the radio saying "Shepard you need to enter that big Green energy thing to activate the crucible." to Trick Shep.

Or how about Avina? That would be the perfect seemingly completely innocent and factural way to give Shep information.

So Catalyst doesn't want to trick Shepard...But he does want to manipulate Shepard...But he doesn't want to Manipulate Shepard very well....What the ****?

I had a nightmare the other day where a killer made me and someone else watch him torture a girl on webcam and told us that if we disconnected or went away, he'd kill her. After being forced to watch for what seemed like hours of humiliation and grotesque torture he killed her anyway as we were both watching. Sliced her throat.

It was one of those very disturbing dreams that felt real and when I woke up I thought it was real for a few horrible minutes before all the things that made no sense popped into my head and I realized it was a dream.

Now if the Catalyst wanted to manipulate me, the very worst images for him to take would be that killer or that dead girl victim...[/quote]

This seems like you're disagreeing with how the story played out...which is a valid point but it isn't my place to judge either way.

[quote][quote]

I laugh at someone who says this with a Geth Consensus based
profile picture. There's no evidence at all that synthesis is
monotonous, nor is there any evidence that there is no diversity. In
fact as I've stated before EDI is MORE of an individual after synthesis
than before.
[/quote]

I actually hated this. The way Edi says "I am alive." as if she wasn't before really really degrades Synthetic life. Yes you are alive and have been this entire time. I find it upsetting that she apparently only believes it if we stick human eyes into her face.[/quote]

It probably referred to EDI's ability to truly experience "human emotions" like sadness (to such a degree that you cry). Yes, synthetics and organics were going down the synthesis path already; synthesis just serves as a sort of shortcut, I suppose.

[quote][quote]
Well, the kid's apparently been on Shep's minds from the dreams, and
the Catalyst/Reapers, after Shep has been in their presence for a while
in general, probably has some insight into Shep's mind somehow. I'm
sure if it had appeared as a Reaper there's no way Shep would've done
anything it said.
[/quote]

Yes but why the Kid? Why not just a blank human? Or an image of Shepard? Or anything. The fact it takes the image of the kid is really weird. [/quote]

Again, not my place (at least in this thread) to judge how the story was told. My personal opinion was that I felt the kid could have worked better, but it felt off for some reason.

[quote]
[quote]I don't think the Reapers had control over their actions[/quote]

So the Catalyst was after Shepard's body? I think you're forgetting/underestimating how important the Reapers being after Shepard's body was for ME2.[/quote]

Likely; assimilating Shepard's thoughts and stuff probably would've helped it somehow, not to mention Shepard did kill a Reaper.

[quote][quote]We also don't know
how long in the future the epilogue slides are. It could even be a few
years or so into the future, not instantaneous, but with enough duration
that everyone can forgive each other; people could forgive the Reapers
because they weren't in control of their actions, and the Reapers would
"forgive" everyone else trying to kill them because the Catalyst was
using them to harvest others. [/quote]

It would take more than "a few years" for people to forgive the Reapers if they EVER could...And those cities are still in ruins. It's blatantly the very near future. Even calling it months ahead is pushing it.[/quote]

Perhaps then synthesis allows people to have the capacity to overcome differences much more quickly through understanding or something.

[quote][quote]I thought that wanting Shep's body to be in a Reaper was in line
with the Catalyst's Reaper solution by using Shepard's essence to build
a more powerful Reaper or something. As for shackled or not, the
Catalyst clearly has control of them, something that is at least
verified more so in the Control ending.[/quote]

Why would the Catalyst want Shepard's body especially to make a Reaper? And when is that stated? It also means the Catalyst has been active since a few months after the effects of ME1... Which raises questions. Why didn't the Catalyst repair the Citadel connection so the Reapers could zoom in if he was active? You're saying he can control the Reapers/Collectors from this point but not do anything useful?


[/quote]

Bioware I think said that the Prothean signal apparently screwed things up so badly that the relay wasn't able to be used or something; perhaps also it couldn't be fixed (after the Prothean screwup) without making it blatantly aware to everyone that the Citadel was actually a mass relay.

[MetioricTest]

It probably referred to EDI's ability to truly experience "human emotions" like sadness (to such a degree that you cry). Yes, synthetics and organics were going down the synthesis path already; synthesis just serves as a sort of shortcut, I suppose.

You mean the exact same thing she did on the Earth mission when she hugged Shepard and was clearly terrified for Joker's life?

She was already alive.

[JShepppp]

MetioricTest wrote...

It probably referred to EDI's ability to truly experience "human emotions" like sadness (to such a degree that you cry). Yes, synthetics and organics were going down the synthesis path already; synthesis just serves as a sort of shortcut, I suppose.

You mean the exact same thing she did on the Earth mission when she hugged Shepard and was clearly terrified for Joker's life?

She was already alive.

To a degree, and probably would have become "more" so naturally. Synthesis just pushed it forward.

[elitehunter34]

JShepppp, in the OP you stated that the Catalyst did not know that Synthesis was an option until the Crucible docked. That is false. These are the exact lines from the game. Look on youtube if you don't believe me.

Shepard: Why couldn't you do it sooner?

Catalyst: We have tried a similar solution in the past, but it always has failed.

Shepard: Why?

Catalyst:  Because the organics were not ready.  It is not something that can be forced.  You are ready, and you may choose it.

So really the argument still stands. The Catalyst has known about Synthesis (or at least a very similar analogue) for at least 50,000 years. He has had at this time to refine and perfect it. He admits it's the ideal solution. It makes no sense why he continued with the Reaper threat as soon as he thought of this.

[JShepppp]

elitehunter34 wrote...

JShepppp, in the OP you stated that the Catalyst did not know that Synthesis was an option until the Crucible docked. That is false. These are the exact lines from the game. Look on youtube if you don't believe me.

Shepard: Why couldn't you do it sooner?

Catalyst: We have tried a similar solution in the past, but it always has failed.

Shepard: Why?

Catalyst:  Because the organics were not ready.  It is not something that can be forced.  You are ready, and you may choose it.

So really the argument still stands. The Catalyst has known about Synthesis (or at least a very similar analogue) for at least 50,000 years. He has had at this time to refine and perfect it. He admits it's the ideal solution. It makes no sense why he continued with the Reaper threat as soon as he thought of this.

It always failed. The Catalyst later says outright "Now that we know it is possible, it's inevitable" or something like that.

Synthesis was always an idea, just like FTL before eezo. It always failed. The Crucible can do it "correctly", part of the reason being why "it can't be forced", and Shepard doing it isn't the Catalyst/Reapers forcing it, and is hence a chosen choice.

[elitehunter34]

JShepppp wrote...

It always failed. The Catalyst later says outright "Now that we know it is possible, it's inevitable" or something like that.

Synthesis was always an idea, just like FTL before eezo. It always failed. The Crucible can do it "correctly", part of the reason being why "it can't be forced", and Shepard doing it isn't the Catalyst/Reapers forcing it, and is hence a chosen choice.

Doesn't that sound kinda...arbitrary to you?  The Reapers are much more advanced than organics and they've had tens of thousands to millions of years to make it work.

The Catalyst did know it was an option before, so you're statement in the OP is still false.

Modifié par elitehunter34, 13 juillet 2012 - 03:58 .

[JShepppp]

elitehunter34 wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

It always failed. The Catalyst later says outright "Now that we know it is possible, it's inevitable" or something like that.

Synthesis was always an idea, just like FTL before eezo. It always failed. The Crucible can do it "correctly", part of the reason being why "it can't be forced", and Shepard doing it isn't the Catalyst/Reapers forcing it, and is hence a chosen choice.

Doesn't that sound kinda...arbitrary to you?  The Reapers are much more advanced than organics and they've had tens of thousands to millions of years to make it work.

The Catalyst did know it was an option before, so you're statement in the OP is still false.

It didn't know it was possible to be done properly. Sorry that wasn't clear; I'll update it soon and try to make it so.

As for it being arbitrary, the story was probably written that way, unfortunately, and we may just have to take it as is.

[MetioricTest]

I think people underestimate how little the Reapers do between cycles. Yes they;re millions of years old but most of what they do is hide in dark space preparing for the next cycle. Gathering power and recharging in a vulnerable state

[Maevera]

The Catalyst expresses emotions in the original and EC endings.

Refusal Ending: (angrily) "So be it!"

Original dialog: (snidely) "You have choice. More than you deserve!"

Its dialog with Synthesis choice has a tone of glowing optimism.

If its voice has emotion, could it have emotion? And if it has emotion, is it possible it isn't amoral? Emotion is usually related to morality. Not 100% of the time but much of the time.

What do you think? Did BioWare mistakenly give it emotion in the voice performance through bad writing? Or is it supposed to have emotions?

I'd point out that the EC cut removed the irritating "more than you deserve" quip of the Catalyst.  Maybe they were trying to make the Catalyst seem less adversarial. 

I think the Catalyst's logic is rather sound BUT an idea is crap when it exists in a vacuum. If the little glowing Catalyst traveled about among the people who were slaughtered in the Citadel trying to explain how it was flawlessly logical, would they have agreed as Brutes cut them in half? Any idea as a theoretical concept (Capitalism, Communism, Monarchy, Democracy, etc.) changes when it is actually carried out. Would it not question its actions, moral or amoral, when it saw the result of that idea becoming a reality?

Modifié par Maevera, 14 juillet 2012 - 02:02 .

[JShepppp]

MetioricTest wrote...

I think people underestimate how little the Reapers do between cycles. Yes they;re millions of years old but most of what they do is hide in dark space preparing for the next cycle. Gathering power and recharging in a vulnerable state

Yeah, I agree; they're not doing much in between, though I expect that if it's 50k years on average for a cycle, they probably spend maybe 45k or so sleeping, because after the (hundreds of) years needed to harvest, they have to then hide the evidence of their presence and stuff and really clean as thoroughly as possible before going back.

[Shamus23]

I think one point you've missed JShepppp (unless I missed it skimming through the last three pages) is the way in which Bioware is juxtaposing the views of Shepard and the Crucible. The Crucible as he tells us has many millions of years of empirical data to draw his observations on. We, as the player, are drawing on our experiences thru three games in this wonderful universe. It is up to us to decide which we put more emphasis in when deciding how to deal with the endgame.

Unrelated to that and in response to some peoples saying that the Reapers caused conflicts in the games we must remember that they are following the Crucibles cycle which as we find out is akin to a battle plan rather than an instantaneous action. If we see what we believe to be the Reapers interfering in our cycle starting the problems, its because its time for them to start Reaping!

[SuperVulcan]

     Thank you. Since I beat Mass Effect 3 I had a very tough time understanding the Catalyst. Reading the OP helped a lot. I did skip the part about morals, though. I do understand what you meant though. The Catalyst is bound by morals it was simply programmed to do what it is told.

     That being said, I simply cannot condone the Catalyst's actions. I will always see Commander Shepard as a soldier, a man. I don't like mentioning this after all the excellent ideas you have written...but in the end I only see a conflict. Not the one the Catalyst sees, not the one some others may see.

     I'm only able to see the Reaper War. Despite this 'conflict' the Catalyst sees; I don't see how a soldier like Shepard is supposed to deal with something like this. Perhaps, the conflict between synthetics and organics will expanded on in the future Mass Effect games. But for now the Reaper threat ends, in my head, with destroy. 
     

[MetioricTest]

SuperVulcan wrote...

 Perhaps, the conflict between synthetics and organics will expanded on in the future Mass Effect games.

Oh God I hope not.

[JShepppp]

Shamus23 wrote...

I think one point you've missed JShepppp (unless I missed it skimming through the last three pages) is the way in which Bioware is juxtaposing the views of Shepard and the Crucible. The Crucible as he tells us has many millions of years of empirical data to draw his observations on. We, as the player, are drawing on our experiences thru three games in this wonderful universe. It is up to us to decide which we put more emphasis in when deciding how to deal with the endgame.

Unrelated to that and in response to some peoples saying that the Reapers caused conflicts in the games we must remember that they are following the Crucibles cycle which as we find out is akin to a battle plan rather than an instantaneous action. If we see what we believe to be the Reapers interfering in our cycle starting the problems, its because its time for them to start Reaping!

Right; the juxtaposition of our morals, our own significance, and our experiences versus the Catalyst's ideas I think create a lot of hate with the ending because despite the harsh, clashing differences, ultimately, we are given the same choice of endings that players are both supposed to "want".

As for the cycles, that's an interesting thought. If the conflict is indeed inevitable, then doing such things doesn't really matter I think so long as it makes reaping easier.

[detbasketball13]

[STEEEEVE]

masster blaster wrote...






Oh but he forgot why WE are in this HELL of a WAR.

It’s this Catalyst that we have lost so many people, and to many have died in
the last F****** 100000 to I have no F***** clue of how many cycles there has
been. And you know what What's to say that if the Reapers want to start
Reapering again since they ARE NOW INDEPENDENT ( even though they
always have been since ME1).



Why do people fall for this crap " Oh he's right" Bull****.



We made peace with the Geth and there creators, even though it deems it impossible.
We are fighting the Reapers with Organics and Synthetics just to bring down the
Reapers,and to top it all.



The catalyst attacked Shepard’s friends.

Made me choices
between Ash and kadin.

Made the Rachni fight the other races.


Oh and forced the Geth to fight with the Reapers, and fight their creators, since the Geth did not want to.

Got the SR1 Normandy blow up along with 20 of the best and
finest crew members to have served with Shepard.

Anderson
is dead ( supposedly) so that pisses me of .

Thane did because TIM/kai Leng were Indoctrinated.

legion died because of the stupid Reaper codes.

Mordin I could have saved if that stupid Reaper was not
there at all.



oh and so many people died that My Shepard and many other Shepard’s have fought
to save them, only to find out in the news articles that they died defending the
weak and stopping the Reapers at ALL COST.



Regger.

Thomas.

Tombs.

The Primarcs Son.

The one Krogan that Shepard could have gotten the Asari with that Krogan.

And many more that have died just to stop the Reapers.

Bailys family could be dead or alive on Earth.

Samaras other daughter is dead because of the Catalyst and his Reapers.



So I want the Catalyst to look at all of the Damage that it has created. All of
the children that will live on without Parents. All of the families that have
been torn apart, and have been Reappraised. And all of the other CYCLES that
have given everything they got to just stop the Reapers from Reappearing their family’s
and to be turned into a husk.

oh and WHY THE HELL doesn't the Catalyst stop and SEE that " Oh so Organics and Synthetics have gotten past the kill each other and are friends now. So I can stop the Reapers, since the conflict is over."

Oh and by the way if the Reapes want to be save, then Death is a saving grace for them because all of the people/Synthetics that are inside the Reapes can find peace in the other world.

Oh and one last thing. IT KILLED YOU(Shepard)BY ORDERING THE COLLECTORS TO ATTACK THE SR1 NORMANDY.

oh and what's to say that a rogue Reaper won"t kill Shepard in Control
since we know that Reapers can defect from the Catalyst hence forth the
Leviathan DLC in the EC files.

i mean no direspecte. but come on why would you trust the Catlyst and look at IT look at all of the evidence that is there in the Game, and REMEMBER that to many have did all because of the Catalyst and it's Reaper abominations, and Shepard did not just become a Reaper, with out Billions of Humans to be processed. so sorry for being a jerk but come on.

And yes The Catalyst is right in a way, but we make outr own future not his, or the Reaper. If our children create Synthetics again then so be it, but never again will they have to fight the Reapers. Never again they will know that there familes are inside the Reapers trapped in there forever. Never again will the Reaper Zombie forces will ever be the same beings they were once before in the were turned in to husk.

Oh and the Catalyst maybe right in the end, but future cycles have a future without the Reapers ever being in their lives ever again.

I've never seen a post anywhere that was simultaneously so long, and so bad.

Modifié par STEEEEVE, 18 juillet 2012 - 06:10 .

[MetioricTest]

Actually he makes a good point about the Rogue Reaper in control

But we'll have to wait for Dis to find out

[Crusina]

So this is where I find it kinda funny actually. The Reapers are perpetuating the very thing they seek to stop. Because they are machines they come to conclusions and courses of actions without much second guessing like us squishy people. So they figure their course of action is correct because they deduce that organics are going about their way of doing things because they are organics, and synthetics are doing their thing because they are synthetics. So the Reapers have to step in to ensure that organics are not wiped out by synthetics. However, the problem is the Reapers do not see the fact they are doing the very thing they are trying to prevent. They have come to a flawed conclusions but do not see it. Shepard sees it and points it out even, I believe anyway. So this is in effect why the Reapers have to be stopped, their solution is flawed, dangerously flawed since they in effect do not preserve a thing as I have stated before. Nothing unique about an organic race remains, I could buy it more if after a harvest the Reapers then collected every aspect of an organic races culture, history, science, philosophy, ect and made the Reaper they were turned into into a sort of museum type thing. That would make more sense. But they just kill and destroy. So yeah, I found that amusing, the Reapers have become the very thing they wished to stop by setting on down the path of being the Reapers.

In many ways,

I am almost thinking of CLU on tron legacy.

An imperfect creation of an imperfect creator, trying to use it's limited logic to impose perfection.

You listen to the Catalyst talk and you realize that it has essentially become the very thing it is trying to prevent, but it doesn't see it. It admits the Reapers are synthetic creations meant as a solution to prevent organic and synthetic life from destroying each other. However, we know this is wrong if you save both geth and quarians, that organic and synthetic life can co-exist. However, it cannot seem to fathom this outcome. Also the Reapers are not a means of preservation, again a topic I have talked about at great length, but instead are just synthetics wiping out organics. We can see these flaws and understand the Reapers are synthetics trying to justify why they are perpetuating the very thing they claim to be fighting to stop.

*Kind of off topic, but...

[MetioricTest]

You listen to the Catalyst talk and you realize that it has essentially become the very thing it is trying to prevent, but it doesn't see it. It admits the Reapers are synthetic creations meant as a solution to prevent organic and synthetic life from destroying each other. However, we know this is wrong if you save both geth and quarians, that organic and synthetic life can co-exist. However, it cannot seem to fathom this outcome. Also the Reapers are not a means of preservation, again a topic I have talked about at great length, but instead are just synthetics wiping out organics. We can see these flaws and understand the Reapers are synthetics trying to justify why they are perpetuating the very thing they claim to be fighting to stop.

*Kind of off topic, but...

I disagree with the Catalyst but this isn't why.

The fact Geth and Quarians are at peace doesn't prove there never will be conflict

[JShepppp]

MetioricTest wrote...

You listen to the Catalyst talk and you realize that it has essentially become the very thing it is trying to prevent, but it doesn't see it. It admits the Reapers are synthetic creations meant as a solution to prevent organic and synthetic life from destroying each other. However, we know this is wrong if you save both geth and quarians, that organic and synthetic life can co-exist. However, it cannot seem to fathom this outcome. Also the Reapers are not a means of preservation, again a topic I have talked about at great length, but instead are just synthetics wiping out organics. We can see these flaws and understand the Reapers are synthetics trying to justify why they are perpetuating the very thing they claim to be fighting to stop.

*Kind of off topic, but...

I disagree with the Catalyst but this isn't why.

The fact Geth and Quarians are at peace doesn't prove there never will be conflict

lol at least something you and i can agree on, meteorictest

[JShepppp]

Crusina wrote...

So this is where I find it kinda funny actually. The Reapers are perpetuating the very thing they seek to stop. Because they are machines they come to conclusions and courses of actions without much second guessing like us squishy people. So they figure their course of action is correct because they deduce that organics are going about their way of doing things because they are organics, and synthetics are doing their thing because they are synthetics. So the Reapers have to step in to ensure that organics are not wiped out by synthetics. However, the problem is the Reapers do not see the fact they are doing the very thing they are trying to prevent. They have come to a flawed conclusions but do not see it. Shepard sees it and points it out even, I believe anyway. So this is in effect why the Reapers have to be stopped, their solution is flawed, dangerously flawed since they in effect do not preserve a thing as I have stated before. Nothing unique about an organic race remains, I could buy it more if after a harvest the Reapers then collected every aspect of an organic races culture, history, science, philosophy, ect and made the Reaper they were turned into into a sort of museum type thing. That would make more sense. But they just kill and destroy. So yeah, I found that amusing, the Reapers have become the very thing they wished to stop by setting on down the path of being the Reapers.

In many ways,

I am almost thinking of CLU on tron legacy.

An imperfect creation of an imperfect creator, trying to use it's limited logic to impose perfection.

You listen to the Catalyst talk and you realize that it has essentially become the very thing it is trying to prevent, but it doesn't see it. It admits the Reapers are synthetic creations meant as a solution to prevent organic and synthetic life from destroying each other. However, we know this is wrong if you save both geth and quarians, that organic and synthetic life can co-exist. However, it cannot seem to fathom this outcome. Also the Reapers are not a means of preservation, again a topic I have talked about at great length, but instead are just synthetics wiping out organics. We can see these flaws and understand the Reapers are synthetics trying to justify why they are perpetuating the very thing they claim to be fighting to stop.

*Kind of off topic, but...

Interesting, though I disagree slightly with a few things. One is, as above, that geth/quarians don't prove conflict is inevitable if they have peace. Also, I think synthesis shows that something at least is preserved.

But essentially, yes, the Reapers do seem to have become the thing that they were meant to stop, albeit in a kind of twisted way. They do not view what they do as conflict, and arguably they don't war for any of the "usual" reasons. They are ultimately dispassionate - they don't want war, but the Catalyst doesn't feel remorse for any byproduct lives lost on account of it.

And your quote from CLU from tron legacy is very apt imo.

[Eterna]

Very good post, made me like Synthesis more.

[MetioricTest]

Eterna5 wrote...

Very good post, made me like Synthesis more.

Well everyone is entitled to their opinions

[Krunjar]

Though apparently not without being ridiculed for them first.

This post is pretty close to my own interpretation. I just am too lazy to set it all down like Jshepp is kudos on that one mate