450 réponses à ce sujet

[JShepppp]

Krunjar wrote...

Though apparently not without being ridiculed for them first.

This post is pretty close to my own interpretation. I just am too lazy to set it all down like Jshepp is kudos on that one mate

thanks lol

[R3MUS]

You guys have forgotten..... The Geth went to the Reapers for HELP in their fight against the Quarians. Not the other way around. The Quarians attacked the Geth and they in turn turned to the Reapers for help.

It all started just before ME1.

[JShepppp]

R3MUS wrote...

You guys have forgotten..... The Geth went to the Reapers for HELP in their fight against the Quarians. Not the other way around. The Quarians attacked the Geth and they in turn turned to the Reapers for help.

It all started just before ME1.

Gotta admit, I did not know that.

[R3MUS]

JShepppp wrote...

R3MUS wrote...

You guys have forgotten..... The Geth went to the Reapers for HELP in their fight against the Quarians. Not the other way around. The Quarians attacked the Geth and they in turn turned to the Reapers for help.

It all started just before ME1.

Gotta admit, I did not know that.

Yeah, i think Legion mentions this in ME2 or if the information is even there in ME1.

[JasonShepard]

R3MUS, are you sure you're not mixing up two events here?
In ME1, as I understand it, Saren used Sovereign to recruit the 'Heretic' Geth as an army, and this had nothing to do with the Quarians. Legion does give some info on this in ME2, notably the difference between the Heretic Geth and the rest.
In ME3, it's unclear who contacted who, but yes, the Reaper's essentially offered the Geth aid against the Quarians, in exchange for the Geth essentially giving up their free will.

OT: JShepppp: great thread (again), which I've only just recently read due to only recently finishing the EC. I may write a longer response later, if I get time.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 21 juillet 2012 - 03:04 .

[shodiswe]

The catalyst might be following it's programming but it's programming was lacking which resulted in unethical solutions. It was also an AI with no experience of what life was like... This pretty much made it an eternal child that was unable to comprehend what it was doing.

[R3MUS]

JasonShepard wrote...

R3MUS, are you sure you're not mixing up two events here?
In ME1, as I understand it, Saren used Sovereign to recruit the 'Heretic' Geth as an army, and this had nothing to do with the Quarians. Legion does give some info on this in ME2, notably the difference between the Heretic Geth and the rest.
In ME3, it's unclear who contacted who, but yes, the Reaper's essentially offered the Geth aid against the Quarians, in exchange for the Geth essentially giving up their free will.

OT: JShepppp: great thread (again), which I've only just recently read due to only recently finishing the EC. I may write a longer response later, if I get time.

Hmm.. I am not sure but i think i am right. Someone better look this up.

And about the Catalyst logic. We don't know if he have witnessed in every cycle Synthetics rising up against their creators. And the possibilty for it to happen is limitless and so he does this. Because Universe is eternal there will always be a chance there will be a war between Synthetics and Organics.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Very good post JShepppp, this is pretty much how I interpreted things after seeing the EC, that the Reapers are the imperfect solution of a crazy (by our standards) AI. About the crucible's original designers, I think itt was designed by the catalyst's creators. One of the leaked lines from the upcoming Leviathan DLC states Shepard asking the catalyst something like you didn't/couldn't wipe out all your creators. So its possible the remnants of the creators made the blueprint for the crucible, which was improved upon by successive cycles.

Also, would like to point out, as someone said earlier; the synthetics we see in MEU are peaceful, and want to coexist. This doesn't invalidate the catalyst's logic. He never said the synthetics would fire the first shot. But only that they would come into conflict.

[KevShep]

pirate1802 wrote...

Very good post JShepppp, this is pretty much how I interpreted things after seeing the EC, that the Reapers are the imperfect solution of a crazy (by our standards) AI. About the crucible's original designers, I think itt was designed by the catalyst's creators. One of the leaked lines from the upcoming Leviathan DLC states Shepard asking the catalyst something like you didn't/couldn't wipe out all your creators. So its possible the remnants of the creators made the blueprint for the crucible, which was improved upon by successive cycles.

Also, would like to point out, as someone said earlier; the synthetics we see in MEU are peaceful, and want to coexist. This doesn't invalidate the catalyst's logic. He never said the synthetics would fire the first shot. But only that they would come into conflict.

I do wish that the crucible plans were explained like this, however, They need to also explain why and how the plans survive EVERY cycle if the people WITH the plans are ALWAYS betrayed by indoctrinated agents.

organics and synthetics CAN live side by side. All it takes is education on both sides...I mean, come on, intelligent organics and intelligent AI's are not incapable of co-existence. Thats just not possible!

Modifié par KevShep, 22 juillet 2012 - 07:39 .

[Galbrant]

JShepppp wrote...

R3MUS wrote...

You guys have forgotten..... The Geth went to the Reapers for HELP in their fight against the Quarians. Not the other way around. The Quarians attacked the Geth and they in turn turned to the Reapers for help.

It all started just before ME1.

Gotta admit, I did not know that.

The Geth were made stupid when the Quarians attack the mega structure while they were dowloading... a large amount of that data was lost. Their survival programs kicked in and the only solution they had was the Reapers.  The Geth was actually preparing for war against the Reapers when the Quarians took a crap on them.  

[MetioricTest]

KevShep wrote...


organics and synthetics CAN live side by side. All it takes is education on both sides...I mean, come on, intelligent organics and intelligent AI's are not incapable of co-existence. Thats just not possible!

"But the peace won't last."

The Catalyst's logic is that eventually there will be conflict and Synthetics will wipe out organic life

[JShepppp]

JasonShepard wrote...

R3MUS, are you sure you're not mixing up two events here?
In ME1, as I understand it, Saren used Sovereign to recruit the 'Heretic' Geth as an army, and this had nothing to do with the Quarians. Legion does give some info on this in ME2, notably the difference between the Heretic Geth and the rest.
In ME3, it's unclear who contacted who, but yes, the Reaper's essentially offered the Geth aid against the Quarians, in exchange for the Geth essentially giving up their free will.

OT: JShepppp: great thread (again), which I've only just recently read due to only recently finishing the EC. I may write a longer response later, if I get time.

Thanks for stopping by again, fellos jshep-er lol

[JShepppp]

pirate1802 wrote...

Very good post JShepppp, this is pretty much how I interpreted things after seeing the EC, that the Reapers are the imperfect solution of a crazy (by our standards) AI. About the crucible's original designers, I think itt was designed by the catalyst's creators. One of the leaked lines from the upcoming Leviathan DLC states Shepard asking the catalyst something like you didn't/couldn't wipe out all your creators. So its possible the remnants of the creators made the blueprint for the crucible, which was improved upon by successive cycles.

Yeah I remember reading that. I'm waiting to see what the DLC holds but have high expectations. I'm also hoping, vainly, that it will be free like the MP ones lol

[Taboo]

I think it's much more likely that we'll destroy ourselves before Synthetics do.

THAT has statistical evidence to back it up.

[JShepppp]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I think it's much more likely that we'll destroy ourselves before Synthetics do.

THAT has statistical evidence to back it up.

Well it has evidence supporting, but not proving, it lol

[MetioricTest]

JShepppp wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I think it's much more likely that we'll destroy ourselves before Synthetics do.

THAT has statistical evidence to back it up.

Well it has evidence supporting, but not proving, it lol

Neither does synthetics killing us...

[JShepppp]

MetioricTest wrote...

JShepppp wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I think it's much more likely that we'll destroy ourselves before Synthetics do.

THAT has statistical evidence to back it up.

Well it has evidence supporting, but not proving, it lol

Neither does synthetics killing us...

We can't disprove or prove that statement, yeah, only support it because we see inevitable conflict, which is a necessary prerequisite.

I suppose it can be considered a fallacy, but it's more as a disadvantage on our part versus fallacious reasoning on the Catalyst's part, because the Catalyst has the data but just doesn't share it, whereas we, the way the story is written, are left to rely on the sparse examples we have which are inconclusive.

[JasonShepard]

Okay, I did say I'd get around to a proper reply to this thread, it just took me longer than I expected...

First off, a note: this post is going to include a fair bit of speculation on the designers of the crucible. This speculation could easily be proven wrong in the Leviathan DLC, but until then...

So. The Catalyst.
I find it... odd that the Catalyst was (apparently) named by it's creators (Catalyst for peace, etc) and yet the Protheans knew the name - but not what it was. Presumably this is either a minor plot hole OR the original designers of the Crucible knew what the Catalyst was and designed the Crucible to interact with it from the start (contrary to what the Thessia VI implies - "At some point, it is diificult to determine when, the Crucible was modified to include the use of the Catalyst"). After this, the name was passed on but the actual meaning got lost (hence the Citadel/Catalyst confusion).

There is an interesting irony regarding the Catalyst, its creators and its purpose. It was *created* to serve a purpose - creating peace - as opposed to being created to serve its creators. Now, many cycles on, it may not have (technically) rebelled against its creators, but I would argue that it has rebelled against its purpose. It has crafted an endless cycle of war, where it was meant to craft peace. It did this because it decided that peace was impossible, so an imperfect solution was needed.
This raises an interesting possibility: It is *not* that the Created always rebel against the Creators, it is that 'Servants' will always rebel against that which they serve. In most cases, however, this is still Created vs Creators.

I like your explanation as to why the Crucible is what forced the Catalyst to change its mind. It did bug me that Shepard had only reached the Catalyst because of the Catalyst's help - even my explanation in the previous thread of how Shep had demonstrated that it was possible to /nearly/ get that far felt... weak. The Crucible slipping through the net feels much better.

Anyway. Onto The Crucible.
At this point, I am going to infer the existence of a third party in these events - an 'opposite' to the Catalyst. This is what I believe the Catalyst was referring to when Shep asked who designed the Crucible.

First question: Who could have designed the Crucible?
The Catalyst notes that the Crucible is a recent appearance - only being around since 'several cycles ago'. This would appear to rule out the Catalyst's creators as a designer. The cycle has been going on for aeons - at least 37 million years, or 740 cycles. That's a lot more than 'several' (although I agree that this point is up for debate). The Catalyst's creators were all dead/turned into Harbinger long before the Catalyst showed up.
HOWEVER, whoever it was, we can assume that they had an impressive understanding of the Catalyst, the Reapers, the Citadel and the Mass Relays. It's possible that they also knew the Catalyst's motives. And they were definitely trying to break the cycle.
Where does that leave us? My best guess would be a rogue Reaper, one that managed to break free from the Catalyst's control. We may know more after Leviathan (and I'm avoiding spoilers/leaks until I get to play it!).

Second question: Why is the Crucible the only thing to persistently slip through from one cycle to the next?
Since it showed up, the Crucible has managed to survive multiple cycles. Not even knowledge of the Reapers has been shown to be that stubborn. The Catalyst and Reapers actively tried to eradicate the idea too - indeed, they thought they had. What did they miss?
You can say that, since it only survived 'several' cycles, we may have just gotten lucky. But I dislike that. This cycle has gotten lucky enough times already - Prothean Beacon, Rachni Wars, Conduit, Javik... you get the idea. (I think you made a thread along the lines of how lucky this cycle got, but I may be wrong.)

Instead, I think the Crucible's designers are still around.

(WARNING: :wizard:EXTREME SPECULATIONS AHOY:wizard:!)
We already know that the Crucible is a recent design. We know that the design somehow survives the cycles, where other useful data doesn't. It would appear that 'something' is keeping the design around.
My best guess is that after each cycle, once the Reapers return to Dark Space, then 'the designers' comes out of hiding. Maybe it's a rogue Reaper. Maybe it's the Beings of Light*. Maybe it's the Illusive Man's cigar! We don't know. But I'm fairly sure it's something.
(*Personally I think the 'Beings of Light' is just a reference to the Catalyst and its attempt to bring about Synthetic/Organic peace.)

Whatever it is, it then proceeds to ensure that the Crucible design gets passed on. There are various ways it could do this. Maybe it seeds new copies of the design, similar to Liara's capsules. If so, it wouldn't even need to check that the previous cycle successfully passed the concept on.
Furthermore if, during the cycle, it was monitoring the galaxy, it would even be able to include any modifications that had made to the Crucible design.Why doesn't it include warnings about the Reapers? Why doesn't it take a more active role in events? I don't know. I would guess that it prefers to stay invisible - perhaps to ensure that the Catalyst does not hunt it down and destroy it. So long as it stays out of harm's way, it is free to play the long game.
(:wizard:END OF EXTREME SPECULATIONS:wizard:)



Huh. This post started off as a simple reply to your topic, and I ended up including a crazy theory and writing a wall of text. Ah well.

A couple of final asides:
With regard to Synthesis - there's a good reason why I refuse Synthesis and always will. And not just because it disregards the free will of an entire galaxy. The galaxy needs to get there on its own terms. Not the Catalyst's terms. Not Shepard's terms. General technological advancement, combined with Synthetic/Organic Co-operation will, eventually, lead to something similar to synthesis, and the groundwork for that has already been laid with EDI and the Geth. As far as I'm concerned, shortcut synthesis may well be doomed to fail compared to the long road.
Since Destroy wipes out the progress made with the Geth and with EDI, Control remains my favourite solution.

Further Aside: clearly it's not just our user names that are similar: Control ending, Male Infiltrator, mostly Paragon (probably closer to 90%/10% in my case), Q/G peace, and apparently we both graduated this year... Are you actually me, just typing while I'm asleep or something?! 
That said, I did play ME1 (it's worth a ride, though the gameplay has not aged particularly well).

Anyway, this being probably the longest post I've yet made, I should probably sign off here... Hope I've added some useful thoughts.

Cheers,

JasonShepard

Modifié par JasonShepard, 05 août 2012 - 02:22 .

[JShepppp]

Thanks for getting around to it JasonShepard. About your idea that the creators of the Crucible may still be around - it's very interesting because it could explain how something as specific as the Crucible slipped through (other than the plot immunity it has). You said you didn't want spoilers so I will not elaborate but this thread has a few things overall that you may find interesting (but it has SPOILERS) regarding the Leviathan DLC.

And yeah, those are kind of the reasons why I picked control; destroy was out because the hard synthetic peace work had already been done; synthesis was also partially out because I didn't feel it was fairly within my power to make that decision.

And lol yeah, perhaps we are the same person with different accounts...though I actually still have a few years of college left lol.

Modifié par JShepppp, 07 août 2012 - 09:05 .

[JShepppp]

Updated with Leviathan stuff.

[JShepppp]

Apologies for some quotes not being highlighted in white but the way Bsn works I'd have to redo all the colors one by one if I re edited the post so it's prly gonna stay like that for a while...

[Warrior Craess]

 Sorry but the catalyst logic is still flawed. 

1) A species is more than simply alive. Their culture science, arts, philosphies are all gone. Breaking them down into grey goo and using that goo to build a reaper is about as far from preserving a species as it can get. 

2) Conflict is a fact of life. It touchs all life (that we currently know of) even the most basic single cell virus and bacteria. Or to use it's own example, a cleansing fire never destroys all types of trees, It certainly doesn't break it down and "preserve" it for use in future cleansing fires.

3) It's had millions of years old, and it hasn't found a better solution to the potential threat that synthetics will kill all organics? It doesn't recognise the irony of what it's doing?  Statements that it hasn't failed in it purpose by leviathan do not make it fact. There is no balance between synthetics and organic, becuase synthetics arrive every 50K years or so, and harvest all life. 

I could go on, but won't becuase any argument that the catalyst makes sense is inherently flawed. It relies on circular logic. Sadly those people that are believers in the circular logic are inherently hard to convince of anything else. So it's almost pointless to continue. 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 05 septembre 2012 - 05:11 .

[JShepppp]

Warrior Craess wrote...

 Sorry but the catalyst logic is still flawed. 

1) A species is more than simply alive. Their culture science, arts, philosphies are all gone. Breaking them down into grey goo and using that goo to build a reaper is about as far from preserving a species as it can get.

I personally agree with you but this is just opinion. Javik shows us that DNA does have the ability to store memories, personalities, and so forth - you can learn everything about a person from their DNA. In the fictional universe of Mass Effect, organics can be "harvested". Synthesis also shows some stuff is saved.

2) Conflict is a fact of life. It touchs all life (that we currently know of) even the most basic single cell virus and bacteria. Or to use it's own example, a cleansing fire never destroys all types of trees, It certainly doesn't break it down and "preserve" it for use in future cleansing fires.

I agree with you here. Conflict is inevitable, thus solving "conflict" is impossible. Creating eternal peace, by an outsider, is impossible. This is the underlying thought behind the Catalyst's actions. 

3) It's had millions of years old, and it hasn't found a better solution to the potential threat that synthetics will kill all organics? It doesn't recognise the irony of what it's doing?  Statements that it hasn't failed in it purpose by leviathan do not make it fact. There is no balance between synthetics and organic, becuase synthetics arrive every 50K years or so, and harvest all life.

Irony would only be there if the Catalyst views itself to be killing people. It doesn't view that. It believes it's uploading them. It's all a result of screwy programming.

I could go on, but won't becuase any argument that the catalyst makes sense is inherently flawed. It relies on circular logic. Sadly those people that are believers in the circular logic are inherently hard to convince of anything else. So it's almost pointless to continue. 

The logic isn't that circular as compared to the idea of a technological singularity, but the gist of it is that what happened was a natural result of its programming and the blame and arrogance lies with the Leviathans. 

If you think the Catalyst cannot artifically create eternal peace, then you are agreeing with the Catalyst. 

And I'm sorry you find this all pointless. I still thank you for your comment.

[JShepppp]

Bump for forums.

[MetioricTest]

JShepppp wrote...

Updated with Leviathan stuff.

Ruhoh