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"I am very surprised." My initial thoughts and reaction.


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#101
dreman9999

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Dusen wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
So you wanted epic space battles with exposions but not a moraly defining plot and at the same time curse all 3 transformers movies under breath?


What? . . . Where did transformers come into this? Is it the whole "action before story" aura surrounding those movies that you're trying to hint at? Well, guess what, I would have considered accepting the terrible endings we recieved had I at least witnessed those scenes that the OP mentioned. I want a morally defining plot as long as it fits with the rest of the narrative, but as the OP said, I would rather have just seen my choices come to matter in the closing of the series over anything else. Adding on to that, I didn't want a secondary issue forced onto me as though it was the actual driving issue behind the series from the beginning when it only began in the second game as a subplot to the greater "defeat the reapers" plot.

Here's my point...Even though it would be cool to seethis, seeing it would not change the plot in any way. It would be just window dressing. You be complaining about the endings even with.  And the choices in the end does fit with the rest of the plot. The entire consept of the game was to question the player what lenghts he would go to stop and unstoppable force. It toe bring the play to a moral delema via the choices given. It the choice were bad because they were too moraly exteme, what of the virmire choice, or the council/alliance choice, or the heritec geth choice? I can go on, exteame choice is not new to mass effect, why is it bad that it's there in the end of the game?

Modifié par dreman9999, 09 juillet 2012 - 07:18 .


#102
Necrotron

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I agree with a lot of the points you bring up.  No emotional payoff and the plot holes rob any bittersweet accomplishment a pyrrhic victory would have had.  And the core arguement the entire series is pointed out to be based upon, synthetics versus organics, has zero evidence foreshadowed in the series and doesn't even make sense!  The Geth were never portrayed as war mongerers, they were only ever shown to be victims of attempted genocide and focused on self preservation.   And they Shepard made peace with them!  Not to mention, my Shepard isn't even allowed the option to play in character during the final sequence.

It's not good when the last feeling you have after playing a 100+ hour series is that you wish you'd never played it.

Modifié par Bathaius, 09 juillet 2012 - 07:57 .


#103
Billabong2011

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Completely agree, OP. If I tried to put my own thoughts to words, I'd end up writing a thousand page novel, and nobody wants to read that, but, as someone who considers herself relatively well-versed in literature, the ending of Mass Effect 3 violated pretty much all other previously established lore and thematic significance of the franchise, with or without the extended cut.

#104
darthnick427

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Billabong2011 wrote...

Completely agree, OP. If I tried to put my own thoughts to words, I'd end up writing a thousand page novel, and nobody wants to read that, but, as someone who considers herself relatively well-versed in literature, the ending of Mass Effect 3 violated pretty much all other previously established lore and thematic significance of the franchise, with or without the extended cut.


Haters gonna hate Fallon. :P

#105
Billabong2011

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darthnick427 wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

Completely agree, OP. If I tried to put my own thoughts to words, I'd end up writing a thousand page novel, and nobody wants to read that, but, as someone who considers herself relatively well-versed in literature, the ending of Mass Effect 3 violated pretty much all other previously established lore and thematic significance of the franchise, with or without the extended cut.


Haters gonna hate Fallon. :P

DAMMIT NICK YOU FIND ME EVERY TIME!!!

#106
darthnick427

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Billabong2011 wrote...

darthnick427 wrote...

Billabong2011 wrote...

Completely agree, OP. If I tried to put my own thoughts to words, I'd end up writing a thousand page novel, and nobody wants to read that, but, as someone who considers herself relatively well-versed in literature, the ending of Mass Effect 3 violated pretty much all other previously established lore and thematic significance of the franchise, with or without the extended cut.


Haters gonna hate Fallon. :P

DAMMIT NICK YOU FIND ME EVERY TIME!!!


If you write a comment I'll be there to troll ya. :D

#107
BD Manchild

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Absolutely agree with the OP. The endings, as they stand, are (and I say this without hyperbole) the worst endings of any game I have ever played, and that's one hell of an accomplishment. It's not that I even expected or particularly wanted an overly happy ending, but what I did want was a satisfying ending, and ME3 dropped the ball completely, to the point where it almost made me wish I'd never played the series. It's incredible to think that, even after the 100+ hours I put into the game, that awful ending is now my most dominant memory of the entire experience. The Extended Cut really didn't help much; the fundamental flaws that plagued the rotten core of the ending were still there, and as was said you can only polish a turd so far.

It's really sad that the phrase I will now be associating with Mass Effect is "wasted potential".

Modifié par BD Manchild, 09 juillet 2012 - 09:26 .


#108
elitehunter34

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Dreman you're misunderstanding the data file that Vigil gave you in Mass Effect one. It didn't stop Sovereign from opening the mass relays. It gave Shepard temporary control of the Citadel so he could open up the Citadel so the fleets could attack Sovereign. Sovereign couldn't open the mass relays, that's we he had Saren. Saren was supposed to give control of the Citadel to Sovereign. So Vigil isn't a macguffin at all.

Watch this if you don't believe me

I totally agree with the OP, especially the point of how it should have ended. I think that the forums are getting too caught up in the moral dilemmas that the ending gave us and the possibility of a conventional victory.

The ending didn't need a moral dilemma and I'm sorry, but a conventional victory would just not happen. The Reapers are written to be just to strong (over 20,000 Sovereign class Reapers according to the codex). The writers of Mass Effect set themselves up for an ending where an advanced device had to give the forces of the galaxy an edge.

It was handled fine in the game right up until the end. The Catalyst was just supposed to be the Citadel itself. There was no need for the Starchild or his silly choices.

I totally want an end like the one you mentioned Conniving_Eagle. Depending on your war assets, there would different endings ranging from Reapers utterly defeating the galaxy to minimal casualties. The Crucible could have done something like stunning the Reapers or dropping their shields or any number of things to that effect.

Until Bioware does something (retcon of some sort or even more dlc changing the endings) I'll just have to accept that Bioware (really hope that not all of them wanted this ending) decided to end the game like this. What a terrible, terrible mistake.

#109
Eire Icon

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First off OP I feel your pain. My Xbox also decided to pack it in just a few days before the release of ME3 and I was forced to go out and buy a new one. Thankfully I was in a position to take the financial hit and it didn't affect my plans for the end of the greatest trilogy in video game history

My thoughts on the original ending were that it was incomplete, lacked closure and raised more question then it answered. The extended cut I felt addressed these issues to my satisfaction. Below are a few points (just my opinion) on some of the major complaints you and others have voiced over the endings

"My choices didn't matter"
For me, the ending of the ME trilogy was not the last 10 minutes of the game, it was ME3 in its entirety. During the course of the game there were conclusions given to major story arc's of the ME series. Most notably of these were
- The Genophage
- The Quarian Geth conflict
- The role and motivations of Cerberus
- The unification of entire races

Taking the first two, these are major themes throughout the trilogy. Shepard has the power to free the Krogan of the Genophage curse, or doom the species to fight a war under the guise that it is cured, which as a result could well lead to their eventual extinction.

The Quarian and Geth conflict has been there from the start of the series. Shepards decisions can doom either race or in turn unify them to work together as allies. Again Shepards involvement in these issues have monumental consequences to the universe

I simply do not get how, bearing the above in mind, anyone can make the statement that their choices do not matter in ME3

"Why should I accept the Catalysts logic"
Shepard does not have to accept the Catalysts logic. Lets take a look at the endings

Destroy - This option point blank rejects the Catalysts logic. The Catalyst asserts that the created will always rebel against their creators. If Shepard accepts this, destroy is not a viable option as it destroys the beings created to control the chaos. If he believes it is inevitable for Organics and Synthetics to be at war Control or Synthesis are better options. Destroy is only postponing the inevitable if Shepard believes the Catalysts logic

Control - By controlling the Reapers Shepard must sacrifice himself but he is not forced to sacrifice anyone further. By ascending, Shepard can control the Reapers, ensuring that if the "Chaos" returns the galaxy has some ready made defenders. Shepard is now a guardian safeguarding the Galaxies future. The most frequent argument against control seems to be that this would prove the Illusive Man right, and Shepard had earlier said humanity was not ready for control. My take on this is that firstly TIM was obviously indoctrinated, Shepard knew this, and he believed that control was not an option available. Yes Shepard can say we are not ready for it, but he does not have to say that. He can also say something along the lines of "So what are you waiting for, do it. You can't can you, they won't let you". The other point is that Shepard said humanity is not ready for that kind of power, but as the Catalyst points out, he would no longer be human

Synthesis - I think this is possibly one the most misunderstood of all the endings. Firstly just because this is the preferred option of the Catalyst does not make it the wrong option. I've also seen people alluding to the fact that Synthesis takes away diversity in the galaxy. That is not the case. Everyone is altered at DNA level, evolving Organics and Synthetics into a similar DNA structure. This does not mean anyone loses their individuality nor personality. A Krogan is not the same as a human just because they are both organic. They still have their own unique identities. Another statement I've read is that this is what Saren wanted/suggested. That is incorrect. Saren was indoctrinated by Sovereign, he was a slave, a pet of the the Reapers. That is not Synthesis.

"Conventional Victory Should be Possible "
No it shouldn't. Conventional victory against the Reapers was never presented as viable throughout the series. In fact the theme of the series constantly reinforces the fact that it is not. At the 11th hour to introduce this as a possibility, invalidates the course Shepard has always taken. It makes him wrong, it makes the Alliance wrong, it makes everybody wrong. It also diminishes the Reapers as a threat, and also calls into question how the most advanced beings in the galaxy could make such a gross miscalculation. To allow a conventional victory would be going against the theme of the series and THAT would be poor and sloppy writing

Conclusion
My own view is that people have problems with the endings because Shepard is made to make a difficult choice with no clear "Right choice" available. No matter what you choose their are moral issues associated with the choice. I can understand why people want that "Right" choice where everything is wrapped up in a nice little package and everyone is saved etc. I do understand that, but the fact that it isn't an option does not make the endings bad, or badly written. "A choice without consequence is not really a choice" and there are huge choices for Shepard to make at the end of ME3. Shepard has always just been able to influence the ME universe, he has never been able to dictate its fate.

Modifié par Eire Icon, 09 juillet 2012 - 11:37 .


#110
dbkkk

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@Eire Icon:

Excellent post. I too think the synthesis ending is greatly misunderstood. Ironically I chose it by accident, as I just ran down the middle and thought I got to choose further down the platform and instead I am sprinting into a green beam. At face value I would not have normally chosen it, but having done so I wasn't as disturbed by it as so many others are. The way I rationalize it is, the synthesis option simply alters the DNA substrate of organics and the technological substrate of synthetics to a more common medium that allows a confluence of technology and understanding. Distinctiveness is by no means reduced. If anything the galaxy is evolved to the next level towards a technological singularity. And the ancient lore of the Reapers are now open to the new dominant species of the galaxy letting them progress greatly.

As an aside, it it ironic since if human progeny / descendants survive for million of years and ever want to in reality explore the galaxy they will almost certainly become synthetic or at least partly so. Our current forms are far to fragile for deep space exploration on any reasonable scale. Assuming we even make it that far ...

The Destroy ending is a bit hard to swallow even in the Extended Cut since I feel for the Geth. Bioware goes to a lot of trouble to make the player sympathize with the Geth's plight. Besides you can assume the canonical paragon Shephard would choose to broker a Geth / Quarian peace especially after what he witnessed in the VI matrix. Still the Destroy ending the is the good little soldier boy ending and has the merit of allowing the galaxy to chart its own destiny. But then again one could argue that the Catalyst for supposedly being so wise and beyond our understanding is in fact a shackled AI who could not solve a problem except using a horrific solution. Still the parallels are there with the destroy ending and the Dune series by Frank Herbert (though eventually the re-writes of later novels in the series suggest at a "synthesis like" ending with the Kwisatz Haderach revealed finally.

The control ending is direct conflict with free will doctrine. I think it unlikely the Shephard AI will turn rogue or nasty. His personality is in the new construct and is effectively unshackled while the Catalyst for all of its grandiose 1 billion year perspective is essentially a shackled AI of immense power and capabilities. But still limited nonetheless. The TIM argument is silly. He was indoctrinated. That was made very clear. The 'star-child' made that clear that TIM was never going to control anything.

Personally I don't understand all this almost 'selfish' need to have Shephard live and or "ride off into the sunset". Most of the best stories of literature never have a truly "happy ending". Sacrifice is often the burden of a hero. Shephard gets to have a quick tearful goodbye with his / her LI. In fact that scene if anything tells you the devs had no plan for Shephard to come back. The "perfect" ending with Shephard shown breathing for 2 seconds is a 'carrot on a stick' to get people to collect war assets. And the argument about the "one more story" line post credits does not have to mean a story that occurs chronologically after the Catalyst / crucible is fired and reshapes the galaxy

Now that being said I am not a big fan of Deus Ex Machina endings. It often means the writers got trapped in their own narrative and needed a magic bullet to get out. I also thought that someone on staff was overly enamored with the original Deus Ex computer game (a great game but no need to essentially copy the endings). The only caveat being that a Shephard-based Catalyst seems much more likely to be benign than the Illuminati.

I wonder if the original plot was something regarding the 'suns dying too young - dark energy link' of Mass Effect 2 and that got canned when DK was commandeered for Old Republic online before he quit Bioware altogether. The idea being that Mass Effect / element zero use was destroying the fabric of the galaxy and the Reapers were trying to limit such damage for the preservation of organic life. But with that panned, they focused on the organic vs synthesis impending war theme which is if anything an overdone genre in sci-fi nowadays imho.

Finally I wonder if anyone on the Bioware staff has read Revelation Space by Alistair Reynolds. While the third book in the trilogy is a bit of a mess, the other two quite firmly establish an ancient synthetic vs advanced organics theme for the "betterment" of the galaxy as a way to explain Fermi's Paradox. There the conflict had to do with a bit of hard sci-fi based on the impending 2 billion year out collision of Andromeda and the Milky Way. An event that will over the course of a few hundred million years sterilize most life the galaxy by massive supernova explosions in close temporal proximity. It was a stretch in the books but again I see some signs that something like this affected the writing team or at least DK.

I apologize for any typos, getting sleepy :)

#111
Eire Icon

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@dbkkk
 
I would agree, I think the idea has somehow popped up that synthesis constitutes turning organics into syntethics, this is never stated, rather that DNA is changed to subsequently allow organics and syntethics to relate to each other. It does not take away individuality, culture, free-will or anything else. It's advancement, evolution, it does not detract it simply adds
 
Destroy for me was an interesting ending. I think its natural for the person controlling Shepard to do everything they can to keep him alive. By this I mean that Shepard surviving ME3 was not something I wanted or did not want, it very much depended on the situation come the conclusion of ME3. Having said that, as the player I would always look to keep Shepard alive where possible.
 
Its always going to be easier to make a choice that allows Shepard to survive. With destroy, this is offset by the fate of the Geth and EDI. For me its perfectly logical that the Crucible is unable to distinguish between syntethic life, and that by choosing destroy all syntethics are destroyed. And I think that is the major problem for allot of players, they want to save Shepard but they don't want to wipe out the Geth and EDI. Just because you don't like the consequences of a choice does not make it a flawed choice ! You don't always get the cake with a cherry on top !

dbkkk wrote...

@Eire Icon:

Personally I don't understand all this almost 'selfish' need to have Shephard live and or "ride off into the sunset". Most of the best stories of literature never have a truly "happy ending". Sacrifice is often the burden of a hero. Shephard gets to have a quick tearful goodbye with his / her LI. In fact that scene if anything tells you the devs had no plan for Shephard to come back. The "perfect" ending with Shephard shown breathing for 2 seconds is a 'carrot on a stick' to get people to collect war assets. And the argument about the "one more story" line post credits does not have to mean a story that occurs chronologically after the Catalyst / crucible is fired and reshapes the galaxy


The want I understand, the need I do not. There's a reason why we use phrases like "The Disney ending". These are endings where everything works out well in the end, and the central characters ride off into the sunset in bliss. Nice to see from time to time but not really congruent with a story about galactic war. In real life "Perfect endings just don't really happen. Life is unfair, cruel and unforgiving.

To quote Buddy Ackerman:

"This is the only way that you can hope to survive. Because life... is not a movie. Everyone lies. Good guys lose. And love... does not conquer all. "

Modifié par Eire Icon, 09 juillet 2012 - 01:02 .


#112
Massa FX

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OP: Yep. All the endgame options are out of character. All the philosophical bs about sacrifices and morality is overkill. As players we deal with death and sacrifice from day one (Shepard's backstory). By the end of the trilogy I didn't need more moral dilemma or lessons. At the end we all knew Shepard well enough to not be put into a box of lesser evils. All options are poor. All options made me sick.

#113
dreman9999

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elitehunter34 wrote...

Dreman you're misunderstanding the data file that Vigil gave you in Mass Effect one. It didn't stop Sovereign from opening the mass relays. It gave Shepard temporary control of the Citadel so he could open up the Citadel so the fleets could attack Sovereign. Sovereign couldn't open the mass relays, that's we he had Saren. Saren was supposed to give control of the Citadel to Sovereign. So Vigil isn't a macguffin at all.

Watch this if you don't believe me

I totally agree with the OP, especially the point of how it should have ended. I think that the forums are getting too caught up in the moral dilemmas that the ending gave us and the possibility of a conventional victory.

The ending didn't need a moral dilemma and I'm sorry, but a conventional victory would just not happen. The Reapers are written to be just to strong (over 20,000 Sovereign class Reapers according to the codex). The writers of Mass Effect set themselves up for an ending where an advanced device had to give the forces of the galaxy an edge.

It was handled fine in the game right up until the end. The Catalyst was just supposed to be the Citadel itself. There was no need for the Starchild or his silly choices.

I totally want an end like the one you mentioned Conniving_Eagle. Depending on your war assets, there would different endings ranging from Reapers utterly defeating the galaxy to minimal casualties. The Crucible could have done something like stunning the Reapers or dropping their shields or any number of things to that effect.

Until Bioware does something (retcon of some sort or even more dlc changing the endings) I'll just have to accept that Bioware (really hope that not all of them wanted this ending) decided to end the game like this. What a terrible, terrible mistake.

That's still giving Shepard what need to stop Sovergin. No matter how you look at it that's still is the case. If you calling the Starchild a deux ex, Vigal would still be the same case.

#114
dreman9999

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Eire Icon wrote...

First off OP I feel your pain. My Xbox also decided to pack it in just a few days before the release of ME3 and I was forced to go out and buy a new one. Thankfully I was in a position to take the financial hit and it didn't affect my plans for the end of the greatest trilogy in video game history

My thoughts on the original ending were that it was incomplete, lacked closure and raised more question then it answered. The extended cut I felt addressed these issues to my satisfaction. Below are a few points (just my opinion) on some of the major complaints you and others have voiced over the endings

"My choices didn't matter"
For me, the ending of the ME trilogy was not the last 10 minutes of the game, it was ME3 in its entirety. During the course of the game there were conclusions given to major story arc's of the ME series. Most notably of these were
- The Genophage
- The Quarian Geth conflict
- The role and motivations of Cerberus
- The unification of entire races

Taking the first two, these are major themes throughout the trilogy. Shepard has the power to free the Krogan of the Genophage curse, or doom the species to fight a war under the guise that it is cured, which as a result could well lead to their eventual extinction.

The Quarian and Geth conflict has been there from the start of the series. Shepards decisions can doom either race or in turn unify them to work together as allies. Again Shepards involvement in these issues have monumental consequences to the universe

I simply do not get how, bearing the above in mind, anyone can make the statement that their choices do not matter in ME3

"Why should I accept the Catalysts logic"
Shepard does not have to accept the Catalysts logic. Lets take a look at the endings

Destroy - This option point blank rejects the Catalysts logic. The Catalyst asserts that the created will always rebel against their creators. If Shepard accepts this, destroy is not a viable option as it destroys the beings created to control the chaos. If he believes it is inevitable for Organics and Synthetics to be at war Control or Synthesis are better options. Destroy is only postponing the inevitable if Shepard believes the Catalysts logic

Control - By controlling the Reapers Shepard must sacrifice himself but he is not forced to sacrifice anyone further. By ascending, Shepard can control the Reapers, ensuring that if the "Chaos" returns the galaxy has some ready made defenders. Shepard is now a guardian safeguarding the Galaxies future. The most frequent argument against control seems to be that this would prove the Illusive Man right, and Shepard had earlier said humanity was not ready for control. My take on this is that firstly TIM was obviously indoctrinated, Shepard knew this, and he believed that control was not an option available. Yes Shepard can say we are not ready for it, but he does not have to say that. He can also say something along the lines of "So what are you waiting for, do it. You can't can you, they won't let you". The other point is that Shepard said humanity is not ready for that kind of power, but as the Catalyst points out, he would no longer be human

Synthesis - I think this is possibly one the most misunderstood of all the endings. Firstly just because this is the preferred option of the Catalyst does not make it the wrong option. I've also seen people alluding to the fact that Synthesis takes away diversity in the galaxy. That is not the case. Everyone is altered at DNA level, evolving Organics and Synthetics into a similar DNA structure. This does not mean anyone loses their individuality nor personality. A Krogan is not the same as a human just because they are both organic. They still have their own unique identities. Another statement I've read is that this is what Saren wanted/suggested. That is incorrect. Saren was indoctrinated by Sovereign, he was a slave, a pet of the the Reapers. That is not Synthesis.

"Conventional Victory Should be Possible "
No it shouldn't. Conventional victory against the Reapers was never presented as viable throughout the series. In fact the theme of the series constantly reinforces the fact that it is not. At the 11th hour to introduce this as a possibility, invalidates the course Shepard has always taken. It makes him wrong, it makes the Alliance wrong, it makes everybody wrong. It also diminishes the Reapers as a threat, and also calls into question how the most advanced beings in the galaxy could make such a gross miscalculation. To allow a conventional victory would be going against the theme of the series and THAT would be poor and sloppy writing

Conclusion
My own view is that people have problems with the endings because Shepard is made to make a difficult choice with no clear "Right choice" available. No matter what you choose their are moral issues associated with the choice. I can understand why people want that "Right" choice where everything is wrapped up in a nice little package and everyone is saved etc. I do understand that, but the fact that it isn't an option does not make the endings bad, or badly written. "A choice without consequence is not really a choice" and there are huge choices for Shepard to make at the end of ME3. Shepard has always just been able to influence the ME universe, he has never been able to dictate its fate.

Thank you...Someone with some sense.

#115
N7Gold

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Conniving_Eagle wrote...

I did not think that the biggest problem that most people had with the ending was the lack of closure, because that is what the Extended Cut supplements. I am very surprised. There are a lot of areas that Mass Effect 3 could have improved upon, but let me just talk about the ending for now.

My Mass Effect History

First, some back story. Mass Effect was(technically it still is) my favorite video game series. I discovered the joy of the Mass Effect series during a very depressing time in my life, and it gave me hope. I had something to look forward to again when I wasn't busy. My life was still very stressful when I picked up the first two, but when I was escaping into the universe of Mass Effect, I felt a happiness that I hadn't felt in years. I was so excited for Mass Effect 3, and then, something happened. About a week before its release, my 5-year-old Xbox finally broke. Not just that, but I was in need of a new hard drive as well. This created complications. I had saved just enough money to buy a Collector's, addition, but now I had to buy another Xbox (among some other more important things). I had to drop my preorder, and make enough money to buy a new Xbox for $300. Going through March was terrible, I was so tempted to find out as much about the game as possible, I had to try very hard to refrain myself from spoiling anything. Then, the news about the ending came, I heard all the talk about how it almost ruins the whole series, a betrayal of Shepard's character, etc (it still is). I didn't want to believe it,

Finally, come mid-June, I bought a new Xbox along with a regular copy of Mass Effect 3. I played the game, it was amazing, until I got to those last ten minutes, those last ten f***ing minutes, where I watched the series I loved so much get destroyed. I cried a bit the night before, knowing that the incredible journey of my favorite franchise was coming to an end. That day, I cried myself to sleep, in disbelief of what just happened to the series that I revered so much. I understood Kaidan/Ashley's devastation in Mass Effect 2 when they found out Commander Shepard died, it was almost "like losing a limb," so to speak. And please don't ridicule me for that, I'm being very vulnerable right now, no one I know in real life understands how I feel about Mass Effect, I am hopeful that someone on these forums will.

My Problems with the Ending

I do not like the ending because it is tainted by nihilism. It goes against everything that my Shepard believed in and fought for throughout the trilogy. Not only that, but it made all of my choices pointless. Over a hundred hours of amazing gameplay, rendered obsolete by the last ten minutes. My original choice was Synthesis, because out of the three, it seemed the least evil. I still loathed it. Back then my options were:

Destroy: Destroy all technology in the galaxy, including the Mass Relays and myself. This would also destroy most life in collateral damage.

Control: Sacrafice your identity to take the role of the Catalyst and control the Reapers.

Synthesis: Impose all organic and synthetic life in the galaxy into a singular existence.

My biggest regret was not being able to tell my squadmates goodbye. I was very attached to my crew, I felt a connection with each one of them, because almost all of them had something about their past or their character that I could relate to; and friends are very dear to me, I only have a few, close ones in real life. But Shepard never got to see them again, Shepard never got to open that bottle of Brandy with Dr. Chakwas, he never got to retire some place tropical with Garrus, be reunited with his/her LI, etc, etc.

These endings were horrible and full of plotholes. After watching the credits, the last thing I get is a message from EA/Bioware asking me to buy their DLC. Yeah, you betrayed your fans, and now you want more money? F*** you.

Extended Cut

I beat Mass Effect 3 the day after Extended Cut released. I watched the videos on YouTube; they didn't help. Although clumsily (with retconning and the use of proverbial smoke and mirrors), Extended Cut did fix some things and add clarity, but the main problem was still there: there were still plotholes, some old and some new, the catalyst still had an irrational and circular logic, and the nihilism remained.

The ending that was changed the most was the Destroy ending. I haven't played Mass Effect's story since completing the third, but if I could change my choice, I would most likely choose Destroy now. Because now, only the Geth and EDI are sacraficed, and Shepard doesn't die. Respectively, I would have to metagame. There ultimately is no 'best' choice, though.

Destroy: Why do I have to sacrafice the Geth and other AI? According to the Catalyst, organics and synthetics cannot peacefully coexist, but my Shepard's actions refute that. My Shepard created peace with the Quarians and the Geth, he taught the Geth to value and respect the perspective of organics, as he did with EDI. This seems like a cheap and arbitrary consequence tacked on so that the player will be more prone to considering the other choices, even though destroying the Reapers is what we set out to do in the first place.

Control: Control leaves a lot of interpretation to what can happen. Shepard sacrafices himself, but he does not truly control the Reapers, a Shepard AI/VI does. Shepard becomes the new abomination that is the Catalyst. He/she says that they will use the Reapers for good, but how long will that last? Who is to say that its perspective won't change and eventually it will use the Reapers for the same purpose, or an even worse one? So does this mean that the Illusive Man, the same person a lot of us have opposed throughout the entire series, was right all along? I believe that a common belief for Commander Shepard is that no one should be able to control that kind of power, it is too dangerous, it is playing with fire, it is better to get rid of it. That was my reason for destroying the Collector Base at the end of Mass Effect 2.

Synthesis: I now think that this is the most evil choice of all. Shepard makes the Crucible fuse all organic and synthetic life into a singular existence. No one deserves to make this choice. One of the underlying themes of Mass Effect is diversity, the beauty and disversity of the galaxy and the universe. In all three titles, Shepard leads a team of people of different religions, races, backrounds, and cultures, to accomplish the impossible. When you find Navigator Pressly's datapad at the Normandy crash site, he wrote that he would be willing to fight and die for any of his crew, regardless of what world they were born on. He learned to appreciate that uniquity, and came to regret his pervious, bigoted and xenophobic beliefs. When Legion discusses the issue of the Geth heretics, it mentions that it cannot form an opinion whether to rewrite them or not because of the consequences. The Geth heretics left to pursue their own future, the other Geth allowed them to do so because they respected their decision. They did not agree with it, but they understood it. The heretics offered unique perspective, a perspective that benefits all Geth. If they are rewritten, that perspective is destroyed. That is what Synthesis does, it fuses organics and synthetics, eliminating their uniquity and perspective to form a 'perfect society.' In technicality, this choice turns everyone into the same thing as the Reapers.

Refusal: I don't think I need to go into much detail for this one. Essentially, it is the game's articulation of Hudson and Walters' "You don't like the artsy ending that we made? Well fine! Screw you, then!" All those hours that you put into Mass Effect were for nothing, everybody dies, because you didn't want to play by god-boi's/the writers' rules.


Uh, about the Refusal Ending, I seriously doubt that it's a "F**k you" of Hudson and Walters, I think the point that ending makes is that sometimes, in wars where your enemy appears to be immortal, sometimes you have to temporarily cast aside your morals and ethics to beat them. Destroy does kill the Geth and EDI, but it also destroys the Reapers, which is obviously a good thing. Control has Shepard replace the Catalyst as the new controller of the Reapers. We all know the Catalyst's solution is seriously flawed, even the Catalyst himself admits that since Shepard is the first organic he has personally met, it shows that his solution is faulty, but Shepard's "solution" is flawless, if you've made paragon choices, supporting both organics and synthetics, believing in peace for everyone in the galaxy machine or organic. But the question is, what if Shepard, as the new catalyst ends up having his morals corrupted? Then there's the synthesis ending, an ending where the Reapers are free from the Catalyst's control and faulty solution and are able to coexist with organics, but there's a catch for that: you have to "merge" organics and synthetics into a singular DNA, which is something we have never supported. We always believed that diversity is never a bad thing-- differences between species is what makes them stronger, especially when they team up together.


And last and least, the Refusal ending. Contrary to popular belief, this is not a "Screw you" from the writers of Mass Effect... But if you think about what I have to say about this ending, it might be a "Screw you" to the ending haters after all, because the whole concept behind the Refusal ending is to show that in order to defeat enemies that appear to be immortal, you sometimes have to temporarily cast aside your morals and ethics to conquer the Reapers, a grim truth that even the Illusive Man acknowledges. If your morals hold grievances of sacrificing the Geth, losing everything Shepard has to be the new Catalyst AND removing diversity between all life, then you've already lost. The only good tihng about this ending is the next cycle successfully defeats the Reapers using the Crucible, something refusal end choosers didn't do. It's already been shown that conventional victory isn't possible agaisnt the Reapers. Remember how much it took to beat Sovereign in ME1? It took the entire Alliance fleet and the Destiny Ascension, the asari military's best dreadnought to take down Sovereign, in ME3, it took Tuchanka's biggest Thresher Maw, Kalros, to defeat a Reaper guarding the device that'll cure the genophage, and Shepard had to enlist the help of the entire Migrant Fleet to take down the Reaper on Rannoch. So how do you think you'll fare agaisnt a Reaper force in the Sol system? And that isn't all of the Reapers, either! You think you battle all the Reapers in the Earth mission? That's only a fraction of their full force! There are still Reapers on Palaven, Thessia and Tuchanka, they're all over the galaxy!

Modifié par N7Gold, 09 juillet 2012 - 01:49 .


#116
Pitznik

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@ Eire Icon: great post, reflects my feelings on ME3 just I couldn't put it that well :) You should create a new topic with this post as the opening. Or maybe don't, it will get lost anyway.

I'm atm running ME3 playthrough with Wrex for the first time, and the survival of Eve and personality of Wrex make huge difference. My first playthrough was with Wreav, and I betrayed him without blinking an eye, I even talked Mordin out of curing them. Now not only I cured genophage, but I honestly believe Krogan have their chance to be a part of the galaxy, and I got rid of guilt of destroying genophage cure data on Virmire. While missions were all the same, the emotions I feel I very different. My choices through 3 games mattered a LOT.

#117
Eire Icon

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Pitznik wrote...

@ Eire Icon: great post, reflects my feelings on ME3 just I couldn't put it that well :) You should create a new topic with this post as the opening. Or maybe don't, it will get lost anyway.

I'm atm running ME3 playthrough with Wrex for the first time, and the survival of Eve and personality of Wrex make huge difference. My first playthrough was with Wreav, and I betrayed him without blinking an eye, I even talked Mordin out of curing them. Now not only I cured genophage, but I honestly believe Krogan have their chance to be a part of the galaxy, and I got rid of guilt of destroying genophage cure data on Virmire. While missions were all the same, the emotions I feel I very different. My choices through 3 games mattered a LOT.


Glad your enjoying it. Tuchanka is an excellent example of how your choices do matter. Look at the Krogan going forward on your two seperate playthroughs.  In one, the word "Shepard" means hero, in the other he is perhaps the architect of the Krogan extinction. Big difference !

Your choices matter, Your Shepard matters !

#118
Vortex13

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The endings and the Catalyst should not have been present in the game to start with (imo), simply having the Crucible fire off a pulse that disabled the Reapers shields (which the Codex states is what gives the Reapers their biggest advantage in naval battles) and allowed for your aquired war assets to fight them on even ground would have been the ideal way to end the series (again imo).

I am still holding out for such a patch or DLC but overlooking that for a moment I still have issues with the three endings; Refuse still faces the same three choices as the next cycle will use the Crucible again. The two biggest issues is that each ending is agreeing with the Reapers on some level and the second is the fact that EDI and the Geth always have to die in destroy. Granted EDI and the Geth dying is tied to my first point but Destroy already has enough 'penalties' associated with it. Now I have seen other users say that sacrificing morals and ideals to stop the Reapers is justifible in this case as they are too strong for us to deafeat conventially, but isn't violating one's morals or beliefs in order to appase a superior being a perfect example of a Faustian Deal?

Essentially in picking Control, Synthesis, or Destroy you are agreeing with the Catlyst/Reapers on some level, and that is: "Synthetics can't be trusted." In control you are in a sense saying that: "Synthetics can't be trusted so I am going to have a police force watching them ready to swoop in and crush them should they get out of line." Synthesis says: "Synthetics can't be trusted so I am going to mutate the entire galaxy in order placate them." And lastly Destroy says: "Synthetics can't be trusted so I am going to execute them before they can kill me."

Allow me to elaborate (P.S. Big wall of text incoming):

Control's delemia is that by controlling the Reapers you would be:

A. Agreeing with the Illusive Man. Indoctrination is besides the point, you are still saying that you agree with his warped ideals.

B. Keeping the Reapers exactly as they are just enslaving them under Shepard's rule. All that genetic goop is (according to the Catalyst) still alive, so Shepard is enslaving all of those species.
 
C. The Control ending suggests that AI Shepard would not be above using the new galaxy-wide police force to wipe out a species (like say the Geth) should they step out of line, the whole "The needs of the many must outweigh the needs of the few." line. That line is from the Paragon Control by the way, meaning that even Paragon Shepard is generalizing without any thoughts given to indiviuals, a clear devience from my human Shepard as he was not willing to judge entire races of the galaxy based on the actions of a few indivuals or assumtions.

Synthesis, while obviously trying to be painted in the best light possible still has sacrifices associated with it. Shepard dying is the most obvious (s/he at least has some form of AI recreation with his/her memories in Control) but there are other issues. Issues like:

A. The elimination of free will in the biggest descision in the history of the Mass Effect universe. Whether or not the people living after synthesis are brainwashed to accept the fact is besides the point, in the act of picking this ending no other lifeform in the galaxy has any say so what-so-ever.

B. The ending suggests that immortality is viable for the galaxy now, but they can still reproduce. So you now have a society that can not die (naturally) and is constantly adding new members to that society, eventually there is going to be no more food (if they still need to eat, most likley considering they can still make babies) or they are going to run out of room and supplies in the Galaxy and will have to move to others like a swarm of locusts devouring all in their path. Such a senario would be possible in the other endings eventually in the far future, but synthesis puts that senario as the imediate future.

C. The Reapers are still alive and unlike Control, have no overiding force enslaving them, which is a good thing for the Reapers but, in the ending everyone is completely fine with that fact. Nobody is the least bit resentful or angry at the Reapers for what they did to the billions of people in the galaxy? Sure they were simply following orders of the Catalyst before, but so were WW2 German soldiers. At the end of WW2 did the perescuted Jews completly forget the atrocoties commited by soldiers just following orders, did they throw their arms around the Germans in comradeship? The fact that Synthesis shows NO animosity between the Reapers and the rest of the galaxy is very telling. Either everyone is brainwashed to accept Synthesis and the Reapers, or they are all made to forget what the Reapers did.

Destroy all ready has several consequences associated with it even before EDI and the Geth. Things such as:

A. You are essentially commiting genocide on the thousands of species comprising each individual Reaper. In Shepard's talk with the Catalyst (and in the Synthesis ending) it is revealed that the genetic goop the Reapers grind people into in order to make a new Reaper are somehow still alive, albeit under the Catalyst's control. This means that picking the destroy option (forgeting Shepard, EDI, and the Geth for a moment) is essentially killing more people than have been killed in all three Mass Effect games combined. The players unwilling to pick Destroy because of it commiting genocide on synthetics also have this to contend with.

B. This ending suggests that killing the Reapers will only postpone the inevitable conflict with synthetics, a conflict that will (according to the Catalyst) wipe out all organic life in the galaxy. So while the current generation will live in peace, future generations are doomed to be killed by their creations.

C. A sidenote to point B., the Catalyst not only heavily implies that killing the Reapers will result in machines killing all organics in the future, it also suggests that future generations will recreate the Reapers again as a means to solving the conflict. Basically, the bad guys will come back, if you belive the statments made by the head bad guy.

D. EDI and the Geth are killed. Now while this is the most obvious consequence for picking destroy there are several underlying themes associated with this penalty that make Destroy seem like the Reapers' collective middle finger to Shepard for killing them.

- For people who brought peace between the Quarians and the Geth, and for players who had talked with EDI, and Legion in Mass Effect 2 and 3 they are losing friends/allies to the cause. But they (the players) are also having people (or talking toasters to those that don't belive they are alive) that activley believed that peaceful co-existence between synthetics and organics was possible, people that had grown and developed an understanding of organic beliefs and values are killed. The very fact that EDI and the Geth were willing to lay down their lives (robot bodies) to stop the Reapers alongside the organic races of the galaxy proves that co-existence is possible without the need for a continuous cycle of harvesting and extinction, or a complete restructing of the galaxy's foundations. EDI and the Geth were the perfect example of how wrong the Reaper solution was, and they could, as developed, empethetic AIs, teach any new synthetics to value organic life, or at the very least come to organic aid if an AI went rouge.

So what does Destroy do? It kills the only fully developed synthetic life cabale of understanding and helping organics. Yes I know the Catalyst doesn't make the Destroy beam kill EDI and the Geth, but narativly speaking we are forced to kill our friends because Destroy is agreeing with the Reaper's viewpoint that synthetics can't be trusted.

With EDI and the Geth out of the way the Catalyst's logic becomes possible again, with no friendly/empethtic AIs around the liklehood of a synthetic vs. organic conflict is possible again. The Mass Effect codex states that AI are created using a blue box and that each one is unquie, every synthetic lifeform has to have a balanced development cycle in order to prevent the AI from going crazy or having warped view of the world around it. EDI and the Geth could help future synthetic life grow in a proper manner, but by killing them the Catalyst's logic about enevitable conflict comes to pass.

To people saying that without killing EDI and the Geth Destroy would be the only choice picked, I say look at the underlying themes of each ending. If the message behind each ending is not enough to have diverse playthroughs without holding EDI and the Geth hostage, then the endings fail narrativly speaking.

#119
Pitznik

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[quote]Vortex13 wrote...

But what if Reapers are in part right? Agreeing with them in part doesn't have to be morally wrong. We never understood Reapers, now we at least in one bit do. Maybe synthetics in fact can't be trusted, and no matter how much you like Legion, they will always try to eliminate organic life? What Reapers did wasn't pointless, just their methods were unacceptable.

Btw, your argumention against control doesn't convince me. God-Reaper-Shep can target individuals, he doesn't have to destroy whole species, and he doesn't say anything that suggests he will. Also the fact you agree with TIM doesn't matter - TIM was evil, you are not, TIM was weak, you are strong. If Reapers have any sort of self-awareness and they are in fact enslaved, Shep can release them, or destroy them.

#120
Eire Icon

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Vortex13 wrote...

Control's delemia is that by controlling the Reapers you would be:

B. Keeping the Reapers exactly as they are just enslaving them under Shepard's rule. All that genetic goop is (according to the Catalyst) still alive, so Shepard is enslaving all of those species.
 


To enslave a race they must be free in the first place. The Reapers are not free and are no worse off before control then after it.

Also just because Shepard can control the Reapers does not mean he must. If he truely controls them he can allow themselves to self determinate

Vortex13 wrote...

Synthesis, while obviously trying to be painted in the best light possible still has sacrifices associated with it. Shepard dying is the most obvious (s/he at least has some form of AI recreation with his/her memories in Control) but there are other issues. Issues like:

A. The elimination of free will in the biggest descision in the history of the Mass Effect universe. Whether or not the people living after synthesis are brainwashed to accept the fact is besides the point, in the act of picking this ending no other lifeform in the galaxy has any say so what-so-ever.


Nowhere in the Synthesis ending is it suggested that organics lose their free will. Their DNA structure is changed nothing more, they are still as diverse and unique as ever. Nobody is brain washed, they have simply evolved.

Modifié par Eire Icon, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:34 .


#121
Eire Icon

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Double Post

Modifié par Eire Icon, 09 juillet 2012 - 04:33 .


#122
Vortex13

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[quote]Pitznik wrote...

[quote]Vortex13 wrote...

But what if Reapers are in part right? Agreeing with them in part doesn't have to be morally wrong. We never understood Reapers, now we at least in one bit do. Maybe synthetics in fact can't be trusted, and no matter how much you like Legion, they will always try to eliminate organic life? What Reapers did wasn't pointless, just their methods were unacceptable.

Btw, your argumention against control doesn't convince me. God-Reaper-Shep can target individuals, he doesn't have to destroy whole species, and he doesn't say anything that suggests he will. Also the fact you agree with TIM doesn't matter - TIM was evil, you are not, TIM was weak, you are strong. If Reapers have any sort of self-awareness and they are in fact enslaved, Shep can release them, or destroy them.
[/quote]

The Reapers were never right about synthetics wiping out ALL life, about a conflict maybe but never the extinction of all organic life. The Catalyst/Reapers are operating based off of an assumption, an increadibly old AI's assumption, so yes what they did was most definatly pointless. The Catalyst says that without Reaper intervention synthetics will wipe out all organic life, but there is no way that it could know that with 100% accuracy, seeing as how there is still organic life in the galaxy. Also even if the Catalyst was correct in this, organic conflict is just as inevitable as synthetic conflict, what is to stop organics from wiping out less advanced organics? What is to stop the organics from having a galaxy sized nuclear holocaust for example?

So not only is the Catalyst operating on an assumption, but it is in effect racist against synthetics, as it is only interested in stopping synthetic conflict against organics, but not organic conflict against other organics.

And about the Control Shepard, your right the Reapers could target individuals, but it still means that the galaxy is now under the threat of do what AI-Shepard says or the Reapers will get you. My Shepard wasn't racist and would not tolorate any of it on his ship, does that mean that AI-Shepard will not allow bigots to exist in the galaxy after Control?

#123
Pitznik

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Vortex13 wrote...

The Reapers were never right about synthetics wiping out ALL life, about a conflict maybe but never the extinction of all organic life. The Catalyst/Reapers are operating based off of an assumption, an increadibly old AI's assumption, so yes what they did was most definatly pointless. The Catalyst says that without Reaper intervention synthetics will wipe out all organic life, but there is no way that it could know that with 100% accuracy, seeing as how there is still organic life in the galaxy. Also even if the Catalyst was correct in this, organic conflict is just as inevitable as synthetic conflict, what is to stop organics from wiping out less advanced organics? What is to stop the organics from having a galaxy sized nuclear holocaust for example?

Maybe they had close calls before, enough of them to see the pattern and they never seen purely organic conflict so inevitable and on such a scale? They put a lot of time and effort in their harvesting, I don't think they operate based only on assumption :)

Vortex13 wrote...
And about the Control Shepard, your right the Reapers could target individuals, but it still means that the galaxy is now under the threat of do what AI-Shepard says or the Reapers will get you. My Shepard wasn't racist and would not tolorate any of it on his ship, does that mean that AI-Shepard will not allow bigots to exist in the galaxy after Control?

That means he will intervene when their actions won't be possible to be stopped by non- bigots, I suppose. AI Shepard is no bigger threat than policeman is to you - he got a gun and right to use force against you, but as long as the whole structure isn't corrupt, he is there to help you. It all depends on your Shepard really, if he is a psycho, universe is in trouble, if he is true Paragon, there is nothing to fear.

#124
Nashiktal

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Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...

Nicely done OP! I'm with you on all points, it really is sad that such an epic finish to this series was squandered.

Bioware tells great character driven stories, but here at the end they messed up. Looking back on the Mass Effect series all I can think of is how at the end, no matter what I do, I am always going to have to agree with the Reapers on some level in order to win. Wether that be synthetics can't be trusted so I need to have a galaxy wide police force to manage them, or that only by mutating all life in the galaxy can they be pacified, or that execution of all syntheic life is the only way to end the conflict.

Those choices, and the one giving them shouldn't have been in the game to begin with.


Those that disagree with me on the ending will find this pathetic, but I don't think I can replay the series at this point. I tried two days ago, I put in ME1, and created a new, badass, Renagon Vanguard Shepard, but when I was watching the intro, the thought of the Catalyst kept creeping into my thoughts. I eventually just asked myself "What's the ****ing point?" and took the disc out of the tray.


Unfortunately many people feel that way, including me. I'm not even actively angry at bioware anymore. I just lost my passion for the series.

Which really sucks, as Mass Effect was my first ture fandom, and the first true "community" I ever joined because of a fandom. I remember debating about Turian society and arguing about Quarian physiology.

Mass Effect 3 was just... Disrespectful of its fanbase. So many cut corners. Even worse was how the bad bits were highlighted by the good bits. At the end of Tuchunka, and for good chunks of  the quarian/geth conflict I was sure ME3 would turn out to be the best entry in ME, and possibly lock Mass Effect as a cultural series. 

Now Mass Effect is sure to be a cultural phenomenon for gaming, just not in the way anyone was hoping or expecting.

#125
Zero132132

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When will everyone that feels this way have finally written a thread and gotten past the whole thing?