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[2Shepards]

When Bioware starts throwing around words like "corporeal" and ""essence", the I can safely say "space magic". Thank you.

Modifié par 2Shepards, 07 juillet 2012 - 06:04 .

[Fawx9]

RiouHotaru wrote...

So...a large chunk of people hate Synthesis because it's ridiculously advanced science (coined as "Space Magic" because it's outside our realm of understanding)...

...But no one has a problem with the "Space Magic" that is the Reapers?

I mean, I accept that the game makes them a collective uploaded consciousness of entire civilizations (ME2 implied it with Legion's statements regarding Sovereign/Nazara, and then canonized it in ME3), but that doesn't make the process by which they do it any less ridiculous or space-magicky.

And then Control does the exact same thing to Shepard (breaks Shepard down and somehow uploads his/her consciousness).

Considering all we knew about them from the first game was that they were the equivilent to Cthulu in space, than yes, a persons suspension of disbelief could be made to accept that they house the minds of those that they devoured.

A giant energy wave that combines machine parts and human DNA into one instantly? Reaching there a bit aren't we?

[savionen]

RiouHotaru wrote...

savionen wrote...

Synthesis is in no way explained to a logical effect. There's no techno-babble. Half of the problem is also what's attached to it.

The Reapers are already these mystical immortal god-creatures. Everything about them is amazing or frightening. We've already got the geth consensus and geth servers, so the idea of something similiar in organic form isn't that ridiculous. Mass Effect was building upon itss own lore, its own logic. Synthesis doesn't really build off of anything.

Synthesis is Space-Magic because it's a choice given to you by a God-Kid because of the Crucible that WE built. Every aspect of it is space magic. It somehow creates this huge green wave that touches EVERYTHING in the entire galaxy. There's no easing into it, there's no real explanation. Not to mention the non-EC version of Synthesis was fundamentally impossible, breaking any sort of scientific logic.

Synthesis builds off the organics/synthetics issue which has been around since ME1.  Also, that's the reason the sci-fi author who unintentionally helped create the term 'space-magic' called it as such:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."  That's why there's no techno-babble about Synthesis.  It operates on a level that current science cannot explain or wrap it's brain around.

The Geth Consensus isn't the same thing because the Geth are synthetic.  What the Reapers have is, yes, an organic form of the Consensus.  But there's NO explanation how such a thing can be possible since organic minds aren't the same as synthetic programs.

There are still brainless animals today, that are just a combination of cells that somehow know what to do. Dozens, if not hundreds of different species in the ocean. As said about the Reapers are also already these god-like creatures that they've talked about for 3 games. We've already established that they're technologically superior, massive in size, massively intelligent (aside from ME3). Adding a few more things to the pile is acceptable.

The idea of Organic vs Synthetic was a plot in ME1 and ME2, but the actual idea of synthesis isn't grounded anywhere. You can't get robots DNA. The idea itself is fundamentally impossible, or at least so far outside of our comprehension that it does indeed turn to space magic. It destroys the suspension of disbelief. Mass Effect fields for example make sense, in theory.

[KFrey]

I don't really see eezo as space magic in the context of the Mass Effect universe. Eezo was the series "what if" scenario, and almost all of the fancy technology they use is explained with some degree of believability because of that premise.

Synthesis, on the other hand, has no such premise. When we ask how it works, we get "There is no time." There's no codex entry. There's no techno-babble. There's nothing, and that's what makes us all cry "Space Magic!"

[Heeden]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

How does the crucible operate on a level that far beyond our comprehension if we built it?

It doesn't, it is a crude but adaptive power source that can be used by the Citadel.

[Fawx9]

Heeden wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

How does the crucible operate on a level that far beyond our comprehension if we built it?

It doesn't, it is a crude but adaptive power source that can be used by the Citadel.

Then why didn't the reapers build it themselves and throw a monkey into the beam?

[Torrible]

savionen wrote...

Torrible wrote...

However magical Synthesis seems, it's hard to top coming back from the dead (Shepard).

Well, we at least have cloning in our current age. You can replace tissue with stim cells, etc. It is a bit space-magic'y but at least it's grounded SOMEWHERE, instead of giving robots DNA.

I don't think it's that far-fetched either. It's not like the robots start growing flesh and hair. DNA is just code in the form of amino acids. Some of the genes in our DNA are reasons why we can feel emotions and have qualities such as curiosity. Assuming Shepard's DNA code can be translated into machine language and added to the Synthetics' AI cores (codes), it will allow Synthetics to feel even more 'Shepardy'. Individuals such as EDI and Legion are already close to full sentience.

Modifié par Torrible, 07 juillet 2012 - 06:11 .

[RiouHotaru]

Synthesis is one of those esoteric "transcendence"-style conclusions that gets used in sci-fi a lot, and those are, by their nature, on the mysterious side. We have no explanation how they work or why they work, simply that they do, because transcendence is something outside of our ability to imagine.

What I'm arguing is that if people are going to complain that it's too fantastic, then you have to immediately take up arms against the concept of the Reapers. It's exactly like my "Refusal is as bad as Synthesis thread", people are being hypocritcal by denouncing one view, while at the same time accepting another, equally outrageous view.

[Tealjaker94]

Heeden wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

How does the crucible operate on a level that far beyond our comprehension if we built it?

It doesn't, it is a crude but adaptive power source that can be used by the Citadel.

That still explains nothing. Where the hell has this synthesis technology been for the past few million years? Who developed it? Why would it already be built into the citadel? Destroy and control make sense based in what we know. Destroy, using the crucible as its power source, is able to use the mass relays to concentrate an enormous amount of energy to destroy the Reapers. Control uses the crucible to replace the Catalyst with Shepard and override the Reapers' controls. Synthesis is the hardest to understand and yet receives zero exposition. 

[Heeden]

Fawx9 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

How does the crucible operate on a level that far beyond our comprehension if we built it?

It doesn't, it is a crude but adaptive power source that can be used by the Citadel.

Then why didn't the reapers build it themselves and throw a monkey into the beam?

Because until our cycle they didn't realise it was a possibility, also as Synthesis can not be forced it can be assumed that Shepard's presence is somehow important ("you have altered the variables").

[IntuitionJo]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Synthesis is one of those esoteric "transcendence"-style conclusions that gets used in sci-fi a lot, and those are, by their nature, on the mysterious side. We have no explanation how they work or why they work, simply that they do, because transcendence is something outside of our ability to imagine.

What I'm arguing is that if people are going to complain that it's too fantastic, then you have to immediately take up arms against the concept of the Reapers. It's exactly like my "Refusal is as bad as Synthesis thread", people are being hypocritcal by denouncing one view, while at the same time accepting another, equally outrageous view.

http://social.biowar.../index/12782665

*ahem*

[Fawx9]

Heeden wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

Heeden wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

How does the crucible operate on a level that far beyond our comprehension if we built it?

It doesn't, it is a crude but adaptive power source that can be used by the Citadel.

Then why didn't the reapers build it themselves and throw a monkey into the beam?

Because until our cycle they didn't realise it was a possibility, also as Synthesis can not be forced it can be assumed that Shepard's presence is somehow important ("you have altered the variables").

So basically what your saying is Synthesis happens because of Shepard's feelings.

Ya, that totally doesn't sound like winning with the power of love and friendship at all.

Obviously a conventional victory is much to unrealstic compared to this.

[savionen]

@Riou

Because people have a lot of time to build up what the Reapers are. If they stared talking about the Synthesis green magic beam at the beginning of ME3, and how it was possible it'd be different. Instead it's shown in the last 10 minutes of the game, by a new character who says "there's no time to explain". I don't think the writers can even explain Synthesis, and that's the problem.

Modifié par savionen, 07 juillet 2012 - 06:26 .

[Tealjaker94]

They didn't realize synthesis was a possibility yet they built the necessary equipment for it into the citadel?

[Torrible]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

They didn't realize synthesis was a possibility yet they built the necessary equipment for it into the citadel?

I think the Catalyst always had synthesis in mind. The idea was theoretically possible but impractical until the Crucible was connected to the Citadel. Then he had the energy source he needed for his 'new' solutions.

Modifié par Torrible, 07 juillet 2012 - 06:20 .

[Tealjaker94]

Torrible wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

They didn't realize synthesis was a possibility yet they built the necessary equipment for it into the citadel?

I think the Catalyst always had synthesis in mind. The idea was theoretically possible but impractical until the Crucible was connected to the Citadel. Then he had the energy source he needed for his 'new' solutions.

If they always had it in mind, why didn't they just build a power source and do it?

[Nragedreaper]

Space magic is like lying. Tell people what they want to hear and they will ignore it. The reapers good space magic, synthesis bad space magic. I didn't mind suspending some belief in ME1, in ME2 I had to force myself to believe in the space magic. In ME3 the space magic just kept multiplying. That is why Synthesis....oh who am I kidding that's why the whole SC/crucible thing became too much. It was too top heavy.

[IntuitionJo]

Nragedreaper wrote...

Space magic is like lying. Tell people what they want to hear and they will ignore it. The reapers good space magic, synthesis bad space magic. I didn't mind suspending some belief in ME1, in ME2 I had to force myself to believe in the space magic. In ME3 the space magic just kept multiplying. That is why Synthesis....oh who am I kidding that's why the whole SC/crucible thing became too much. It was too top heavy.

Ultimately, not because of 'feelings' or 'closure', this is why people hate the ending.

It just doesn't make any sense. Plain and simple.

[Torrible]

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

They didn't realize synthesis was a possibility yet they built the necessary equipment for it into the citadel?

I think the Catalyst always had synthesis in mind. The idea was theoretically possible but impractical until the Crucible was connected to the Citadel. Then he had the energy source he needed for his 'new' solutions.

If they always had it in mind, why didn't they just build a power source and do it?

The Crucible (power source) took many cycles (research and trial and error) to be successfully built. The Catalyst isn't ominpotent. He couldn't know anything that his creators didn't. He had to learn stuff along the way like everyone else.

[Fawx9]

Torrible wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

They didn't realize synthesis was a possibility yet they built the necessary equipment for it into the citadel?

I think the Catalyst always had synthesis in mind. The idea was theoretically possible but impractical until the Crucible was connected to the Citadel. Then he had the energy source he needed for his 'new' solutions.

If they always had it in mind, why didn't they just build a power source and do it?

The Crucible (power source) took many cycles (research and trial and error) to be successfully built. The Catalyst isn't ominpotent. He couldn't know anything that his creators didn't. He had to learn stuff along the way like everyone else.

The citidal is where he lives. If anyone is going to build a device to conect with it you'd think he'd have the advantage there.

As soon as he saw the initial plans (cycles ago) he should have been able to complete it.

[Love Sherri]

Torrible wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

They didn't realize synthesis was a possibility yet they built the necessary equipment for it into the citadel?

I think the Catalyst always had synthesis in mind. The idea was theoretically possible but impractical until the Crucible was connected to the Citadel. Then he had the energy source he needed for his 'new' solutions.

1. While the Catalyst had knowledge of the Crucible existing from previous cycles, he admits he thought all knowledge of it and it's schematics had been destroyed.

2. The Catalyst did not build the Cruicible.  The RGB ending choices (or as you say, "new solutions") are the Cruicible's options, not the Catalyst's.

[Ryzaki]

It's all space magic yes.

But some space magic is more believable and less retarded than others.

[Torrible]

Fawx9 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

They didn't realize synthesis was a possibility yet they built the necessary equipment for it into the citadel?

I think the Catalyst always had synthesis in mind. The idea was theoretically possible but impractical until the Crucible was connected to the Citadel. Then he had the energy source he needed for his 'new' solutions.

If they always had it in mind, why didn't they just build a power source and do it?

The Crucible (power source) took many cycles (research and trial and error) to be successfully built. The Catalyst isn't ominpotent. He couldn't know anything that his creators didn't. He had to learn stuff along the way like everyone else.

The citidal is where he lives. If anyone is going to build a device to conect with it you'd think he'd have the advantage there.

As soon as he saw the initial plans (cycles ago) he should have been able to complete it.

He hinted at a previous failed attempt did he? He implied that it failed because the previous cycle weren't ready. That suggested that there was already an earlier version of the crucible built. 

[RiouHotaru]

Ryzaki wrote...

It's all space magic yes.

But some space magic is more believable and less retarded than others.

How are the Reapers any more believable than Synthesis?